Sabres Head Coaching Search

[Stoner]

Thorny nailed it. I am now envious of it.

How 'bout this:

Terry turns over a new leaf and calls Kevyn onto the HMS Carbondale. "Kev... what do you need from me?"

You're Kev. What do you say?

I know a lot of people will respond with how naive I am, how the owner has every right to drive the relationship wherever he wants it to go, even to direct involvement in decision-making. Because, wait for it, he's a billionaire businessman and HE OWNS THE TEAM. Fine. I'm just envisioning this idealistic scenario.

But, really, how pie in the sky is it? You are a fan of a team and buy that team. Don't you want to do what makes the most sense to have success?

Please explain why my concept of ownership makes less sense than what we've had. Exactly how does more involvement than that benefit the team?

My answer: I need your trust, and I might need some more of your money.

[PromoTheRobot]

4 hours ago, Kristian said:

Are they gonna be involved in who the next equipment guy is, too?

If he's going to make $5MM/yr? Then yes.

[carpandean]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Along comes an artist w/ The Last Jedi and the studio gets cold feet after it's release and steps in to change the direction of the franchise and the result is the putrid Rise of Skywalker.

I agree with much of your point, but The Last Jedi was terrible.  Their mistake was not having someone or even a team that included real fans of the franchise*, plan the path of the trilogy in advance.  It was relatively directionless at the start, and then Johnson and Abrams (again) were seemingly allowed to completely change the direction from the prior episode as they saw fit.  It was like two people, who aren't from the area, grabbing for the wheel while driving in the fog without a map (or navi), and then being surprised when both the trip and destination weren't good.

 

* While The Mandalorian had its flaws, watching the behind the scenes process was inspiring, and the results were certainly better than the third trilogy.

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, carpandean said:

I agree with much of your point, but The Last Jedi was terrible.  Their mistake was not having someone or even a team that included real fans of the franchise*, plan the path of the trilogy in advance.  It was relatively directionless at the start, and then Johnson and Abrams (again) were seemingly allowed to completely change the direction from the prior episode as they saw fit.  It was like two people, who aren't from the area, grabbing for the wheel while driving in the fog without a map (or navi), and then being surprised when both the trip and destination weren't good.

 

* While The Mandalorian had its flaws, watching the behind the scenes process was inspiring, and the results were certainly better than the third trilogy.

Nah, Last Jedi was a fantastic movie. It's a bad movie to some fans, but it's a great movie IMO. 

The franchise did end up directionless, I totally agree, but that isn't because they didn't have viable directions to head in. They just did a 180 after TLJ and didn't commit. It's divisive among fans, but so was Empire. It's also lauded critically. Disney caved to the hardcore fan sentiment. 

SO many fans hated Azkaban. I lived through it. But the studio committed to the direction it established and never looked back. The success established since tells the rest. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Thorny

[Marvin]

32 minutes ago, carpandean said:

I agree with much of your point, but The Last Jedi was terrible.  Their mistake was not having someone or even a team that included real fans of the franchise*, plan the path of the trilogy in advance.  It was relatively directionless at the start, and then Johnson and Abrams (again) were seemingly allowed to completely change the direction from the prior episode as they saw fit.  It was like two people, who aren't from the area, grabbing for the wheel while driving in the fog without a map (or navi), and then being surprised when both the trip and destination weren't good.

 

* While The Mandalorian had its flaws, watching the behind the scenes process was inspiring, and the results were certainly better than the third trilogy.

You don't necessarily want this

As a fan Doctor Who, I can say that fans having too much input was one of the biggest problems with seasons 18-23.  Once Ian Levine and Jeremy Bentham got upset about not getting their ideas into The Trial of a Time Lord, the series improved.

As a fan of Star Trek, I got a letter from Wesley Eugene Roddenberry in 1984-5 which said that he was reviving Star Trek and would like my input into what to do to improve the series.  So I realise that lots of what I hated about the series were, in a small part, my fault.  (OK, I don't believe in Gene's "Federation and Utopia" model and his too-good-to-be-true characters.  I also grossly under-estimated how anti-religion and how sex obsessed he was.)

[Doohicksie]

15 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

It's a strained analogy

You keep saying that, and you're wrong every time.

[Stoner]

35 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

You keep saying that, and you're wrong every time.

Says who?

[Kristian]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

If he's going to make $5MM/yr? Then yes.

Maybe they should’ve saved that money on the GM they hired, considering they’ll be doing his job anyway.

Sarcasm aside, I agree - anyone in their right mind would want to at least have a say in who they’ll be paying.

That being said, anyone in their right mind would also learn from 10 years of past experience, and recognize they shouldn’t try to do a job they flat out suck at, so I’m kinda torn here…

Edited May 26, 2021 by Kristian

[carpandean]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Nah, Last Jedi was a fantastic movie. It's a bad movie to some fans, but it's a great movie IMO.

Agree to disagree.  There were so many things that weren't good - and I'm not even one who minded Luke's fall from glory.  Plus, it felt very disconnected from TFA, so when was it really that they didn't commit.  To me, it felt like twice.

53 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

You don't necessarily want this

I didn't mean to imply that you just get fans together for the project.  The team needed someone who was qualified technically, but also had a passion for the lore that came before.  Jon Favreau is the obvious example of someone who is in the industry, but also clearly grew up with the original series ingrained on his sole.  And not everyone would need to be a fan.  You'd still want outside voices, too, or the franchise can't grow.

 

Anyway, we should best leave the SW talk for another thread.

 

[Cascade Youth]

Dorks.

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, carpandean said:

Agree to disagree.  There were so many things that weren't good - and I'm not even one who minded Luke's fall from glory.  Plus, it felt very disconnected from TFA, so when was it really that they didn't commit.  To me, it felt like twice.

I didn't mean to imply that you just get fans together for the project.  The team needed someone who was qualified technically, but also had a passion for the lore that came before.  Jon Favreau is the obvious example of someone who is in the industry, but also clearly grew up with the original series ingrained on his sole.  And not everyone would need to be a fan.  You'd still want outside voices, too, or the franchise can't grow.

Anyway, we should best leave the SW talk for another thread.

In fact, I think this talk is very relevant to anything related to the management of the Sabres.  In particular, Doctor Who from 1980-9 comes complete with hyper-involved fans, executive meddling, management caught in the middle, and people involved in the product just doing the best thy can.  It was so bad that they wrote a story to lampoon the situation they were in --- which was almost axed due to executive meddling and fans who were offended at being sent-up; it was saved by the management and the others directly involved in the product.

That experience is also why I don't believe that the Pegulas are malicious in running the Sabres and don't meddle as much as some people say, but more than others.  I know what they all look like and feel like when you are emotionally involved.

[carpandean]

2 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

In fact, I think this talk is very relevant to anything related to the management of the Sabres.  In particular, Doctor Who from 1980-9 comes complete with hyper-involved fans, executive meddling, management caught in the middle, and people involved in the product just doing the best thy can.  It was so bad that they wrote a story to lampoon the situation they were in --- which was almost axed due to executive meddling and fans who were offended at being sent-up; it was saved by the management and the others directly involved in the product.

That experience is also why I don't believe that the Pegulas are malicious in running the Sabres and don't meddle as much as some people say, but more than others.  I know what they all look like and feel like when you are emotionally involved.

Thanks for quoting my post, which has since disappeared.  Good job connecting it to the discussion at hand.

I should clarify that Jon Favreau has the original trilogy ingrained in his spirit (soul), not the bottom of his foot (sole). 😣

[Marvin]

44 minutes ago, carpandean said:

Thanks for quoting my post, which has since disappeared.  Good job connecting it to the discussion at hand.

I should clarify that Jon Favreau has the original trilogy ingrained in his spirit (soul), not the bottom of his foot (sole). 😣

I figured that's what we are doing.  I don't question their love of the Sabres, but boy, oh boy, do I ever question their wisdom.

The Pegulas show a lot of the flaws when fans get a hold of their all-time favourite franchises.  For instance, the show-runners from Doctor Who now are the fans whom I used to compete with for getting our stories into the best fanzines back in the 1980's.  I see a lot of Terry and Kim Pegula's flaws in the revival of Doctor Who.

Moreover, the Pegulas' biases are reflected in their handling of the franchise is very reminiscent of the way Wesley Eugene Roddenberry's biases were catered to in Star Drek: The Next Regurgitation.  And the Pegulas' purchase of the team has cause the same egomaniacal response that The Great Bird of the Galaxy got from Star Trek fandom from 1966-87.

I can tell there is a decent amount of executive meddling because of how the rumours come out -- exactly like the information I would get from my contacts in the Doctor Who production office back in the day or what I got from the SD:TNR writers when they quit in season 1.  You would see someone want to do something and then get undercut from above.  John Nathan-Turner is going to retire for Gary Downie and is coerced into staying as producer.  XGMJB undercuts XHCPH.  Suddenly, ROR has to be traded by the bonus or he's off the table.  The Federation is a socialist Utopia with everyone pulling in the same direction.

As you might imagine, I can expound on this for days.  I will refrain here.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Marvin, Sabres Fan

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, Kristian said:

Maybe they should’ve saved that money on the GM they hired, considering they’ll be doing his job anyway.

Sarcasm aside, I agree - anyone in their right mind would want to at least have a say in who they’ll be paying.

That being said, anyone in their right mind would also learn from 10 years of past experience, and recognize they shouldn’t try to do a job they flat out suck at, so I’m kinda torn here…

We don't know how much input the Pegs have here. I, like you, hope their 10 year track record is a hint they should let Adams and Karmanos drive the bus.

[Broken Ankles]

7 hours ago, Cascade Youth said:

Dorks.

[Flashsabre]

Pens bounced in the first round again. Burke/Hextall now in charge.  Will Sullivan survive?  If he gets axed I wonder how strong the relationship is with Karmanos.

[FogBat]

1 hour ago, Flashsabre said:

Pens bounced in the first round again. Burke/Hextall now in charge.  Will Sullivan survive?  If he gets axed I wonder how strong the relationship is with Karmanos.

Sid isn't The Kid he once was. More like Sid Vicious.

[thewookie1]

14 hours ago, Thorny said:

Nah, Last Jedi was a fantastic movie. It's a bad movie to some fans, but it's a great movie IMO. 

As an individual movie it wasn't bad but in the greater scheme of the prior 7 movies it was horrifying bad both from a lore perspective and a consistency perspective. 

For starters, right off the bat they had the movie start almost immediately after Episode 7. Thus creating an absurdly short amount of time between Rey learning of her Force powers and being masterful with them. Even liberally Episodes 7 & 8 took only about 2 weeks in-movie time.

Secondly was the character assassination of Luke Skywalker; there were many ways to make the long time fans happy while still having a grumpier Luke. The mere fact that, by all accounts Luke, the guy who held out hope for his father who had massacred millions could be saved, tried to kill his nephew based on a few dark thoughts and then upon his Jedi Academy being destroyed outright gave up. Seriously.... Maybe if more were to have happened prior I could forgive it but as of now that is all it took to literally break Luke. 

Thirdly was the continued destruction of the original cast and almost callous treatment of all the classic characters. Admiral Ackbar dies in the first 15min of the film and gets a sentence on his death. Instead we get some pink haired lady who quite literally caused 3/4th of the problems by refusing to outright give a hero of the resistance even a clue as to what they were doing. Leia gets the most respect, but never physically interacts with Luke, barely talks to Han and then sadly dies. (Sadly in real life) Why did they need to destroy the characters we loved from the past with having Han and Leia being married-in-name only, Luke never marrying and then going edgy, and Chewbacca (well he was fine) Legends at least gave them all semi-happy endings with kids and multiple further adventures. One could argue this was more "true to life" but why suddenly pull that card out for the old characters while still maintaining this "hopeful" galaxy angle.

There were many ways they could have made the Sequel Trilogy its own thing while still paying respect to the originals and their many fans. They tossed them all out the window and then demonized everyone for disliking the new characters who quite literally just supplant the originals. 

 

*Rant Over*

Edited May 27, 2021 by thewookie1

[Hoss]

15 hours ago, Thorny said:

Nah, Last Jedi was a fantastic movie. It's a bad movie to some fans, but it's a great movie IMO. 

The franchise did end up directionless, I totally agree, but that isn't because they didn't have viable directions to head in. They just did a 180 after TLJ and didn't commit. It's divisive among fans, but so was Empire. It's also lauded critically. Disney caved to the hardcore fan sentiment. 

SO many fans hated Azkaban. I lived through it. But the studio committed to the direction it established and never looked back. The success established since tells the rest. 

TLJ is the best of the Star Wars franchise

[Hoss]

50 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

As an individual movie it wasn't bad but in the greater scheme of the prior 7 movies it was horrifying bad both from a lore perspective and a consistency perspective. 

For starters, right off the bat they had the movie start almost immediately after Episode 7. Thus creating an absurdly short amount of time between Rey learning of her Force powers and being masterful with them. Even liberally Episodes 7 & 8 took only about 2 weeks in-movie time.

Secondly was the character assassination of Luke Skywalker; there were many ways to make the long time fans happy while still having a grumpier Luke. The mere fact that, by all accounts Luke, the guy who held out hope for his father who had massacred millions could be saved, tried to kill his nephew based on a few dark thoughts and then upon his Jedi Academy being destroyed outright gave up. Seriously.... Maybe if more were to have happened prior I could forgive it but as of now that is all it took to literally break Luke. 

Thirdly was the continued destruction of the original cast and almost callous treatment of all the classic characters. Admiral Ackbar dies in the first 15min of the film and gets a sentence on his death. Instead we get some pink haired lady who quite literally caused 3/4th of the problems by refusing to outright give a hero of the resistance even a clue as to what they were doing. Leia gets the most respect, but never physically interacts with Luke, barely talks to Han and then sadly dies. (Sadly in real life) Why did they need to destroy the characters we loved from the past with having Han and Leia being married-in-name only, Luke never marrying and then going edgy, and Chewbacca (well he was fine) Legends at least gave them all semi-happy endings with kids and multiple further adventures. One could argue this was more "true to life" but why suddenly pull that card out for the old characters while still maintaining this "hopeful" galaxy angle.

There were many ways they could have made the Sequel Trilogy its own thing while still paying respect to the originals and their many fans. They tossed them all out the window and then demonized everyone for disliking the new characters who quite literally just supplant the originals. 

 

*Rant Over*

The entire purpose of TLJ was to create its own story instead of just circle jerking the same nepotistic storylines they’d already hashed out several times. They didn’t railroad the old characters, they just didn’t center the entire story on them ... Until JJ Abrams came in with TROS and went right back into that overdone well and ruined the momentum built by Rian Johnson.

[MODO Hockey]

Darth Vader has been coaching the dark side, maybe Adams should make an offer.

[Radar]

What is this a movie review site?

[carpandean]

2 hours ago, Hoss said:

TLJ is the best of the Star Wars franchise

[PromoTheRobot]

19 hours ago, Thorny said:

Nah, Last Jedi was a fantastic movie. It's a bad movie to some fans, but it's a great movie IMO. 

The franchise did end up directionless, I totally agree, but that isn't because they didn't have viable directions to head in. They just did a 180 after TLJ and didn't commit. It's divisive among fans, but so was Empire. It's also lauded critically. Disney caved to the hardcore fan sentiment. 

SO many fans hated Azkaban. I lived through it. But the studio committed to the direction it established and never looked back. The success established since tells the rest. 

I swore off anything Star Wars after JarJar Binks. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I swore off anything Star Wars after JarJar Binks. 

Everyone seems to have their breaking point with Star Wars