GDT: Kevyn Adams Press Conference -- The "Disconnect" Explained--11:00 am

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

All things considered?  No, I would rather have Jack Eichel.  He is too talented and I would never consider him a terrible person, or culture killer or anything.  He is like a neutral for me, put into a position where he was expected to be a ++.  Cozens is like a ++.  I hope that makes sense.

True that Eichel sounded more mature last season. I think I’ve said this before, but it shouldn’t be noteworthy when the team captain gives a mature sounding interview.  That should be the default.

I never said that you can’t  win with Eichel or any nonsense like that.  You are the one who brought up Eichel.

I ardently disagree that the importance of players’ personalities is all BS, as you say.

Trying to identify that variable is certainly BS when you haven't even played him with a capable centre for several years.

Of course you always want the default to be maturity, but if a players grows into that aspect, it's noteworthy. Only in a perfect world do 18 year olds come into the league fully mature. I know I wasn't that, at 18.

- - - 

On a totally unrelated note, I still find this interesting from Friedman:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/31-thoughts-nashville-move-ryan-ellis-instead-mattias-ekholm/

22. It sounds like the Sabres are making some scouting changes. At the very least a shuffling, and then we see about external additions. Could be news on the assistant-GM front (Jason Karmanos very much a contender) this week.

 - Sound like it may indeed only be a shuffle.

[Curt]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Trying to identify that variable is certainly BS when you haven't even played him with a capable centre for several years.

Of course you always want the default to be maturity, but if a players grows into that aspect, it's noteworthy. Only in a perfect world do 18 year olds come into the league fully mature. I know I wasn't that, at 18.

I certainly agree with the bolded, and I think that being notably mature is a very desirable quality.

What can I saw about the lack of a 2C that hasn’t been said 1,000 times already.  Being a 2C is also a very desirable quality!

Basically, I think that the Sabres are in a particularly depressing situation, and player with an especially resilient and determined spirit would be a great help in turning this around.

You can disagree and say just get talent, we’ll worry about whether they are aholes/lazy/immature/justlooking for a payday/or whatever else later on.  But I think that the high standard of conduct needs to be established first.

[Thorner]

16 minutes ago, Curt said:

I certainly agree with the bolded, and I think that being notably mature is a very desirable quality.

What can I saw about the lack of a 2C that hasn’t been said 1,000 times already.  Being a 2C is also a very desirable quality!

Basically, I think that the Sabres are in a particularly depressing situation, and player with an especially resilient and determined spirit would be a great help in turning this around.

You can disagree and say just get talent, we’ll worry about whether they are aholes/lazy/immature/justlooking for a payday/or whatever else later on.  But I think that the high standard of conduct needs to be established first.

Fair enough. 

For me, there's no establishing the standard of conduct before you establish that you can win hockey games - it's what I truly believe. You can preach it, you can write it out on the walls of the arena, you can release "what it means to be a Buffalo Sabre" but it's empty words that no one will buy into, anyways, until you actually achieve the winning. Win, and then you can convince people to buy into the code of conduct you want to maintain. 

It's much easier to nudge players in that direction once they believe the results are actually attainable, than it is to project character in 18 year olds coming into the league. Scouts can't even consistently identify talent - what chance do they have to decipher character?!

The solution is easy peazy regardless of Adams' willingness to see it - the attitudes you want will come to you if they think winning can be had. It's exceptionally hard to make the NHL - these guys all know how to work hard. The misconception is that they don't have the drive one seeks, but in reality, they just don't have a willingness to show it, once you've proven to them, time and time again, that it's irrelevant - because there isn't enough talent to get it done, regardless. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Thorny

[Broken Ankles]

46 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Patrick Kane by all accounts is a total d-bag and he's won a Conn Smythe. You can trade a player for character reasons, but not one as good as Jack. His talent trumps the other stuff, particularly when any of the other stuff is just guesswork 

Don't like Jack's leadership, too similar to Kane? That's why you build around Kane with other good players, too, just like Chicago did

With all due respect, the Kane analogy doesn't work here, as Kane was so far from being a 'Face of the Franchise' during that period.  While definitely the best goal scorer, the Chicago locker room was lead by so many other players.  Kane wasn't even an assistant Captain during that 6-7 year Stanley Cup stretch.  And yet Toews was the Captain at almost the same age.  I think a prima donna type (Kane in this scenario) is "tolerated" verses respected for what he brings to the table.   I don't think there are/would be enough strong personalities in the Sabres locker room to challenge this void in leadership if Eichel stays.   Which is why, for me at least, he must go this summer.  

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

With all due respect, the Kane analogy doesn't work here, as Kane was so far from being a 'Face of the Franchise' during that period.  While definitely the best goal scorer, the Chicago locker room was lead by so many other players.  Kane wasn't even an assistant Captain during that 6-7 year Stanley Cup stretch.  And yet Toews was the Captain at almost the same age.  I think a prima donna type (Kane in this scenario) is "tolerated" verses respected for what he brings to the table.   I don't think there are/would be enough strong personalities in the Sabres locker room to challenge this void in leadership if Eichel stays.   Which is why, for me at least, he must go this summer.  

Kane was an absolutely necessary component of their cup runs, character be damned. 

Is it supposed to be, oops, we picked the wrong "face" of the franchise, have to trade him! He still has the talent you need. If you want other leaders, bring those players in. 

Letters are letters, they aren't actually restrictive in preventing others from being "leaders". 

If all Eichel is contributing in that sense in an active void, and not negative value - simply fill the void

We can't seriously prioritize "damn, he has the C, he's gotta go" over his talent. Besides, if you say there's no one to "challenge the void" while he's here, there's no one to "challenge the void" when he's gone, leaving the players in the same "lacking leadership" stage, which is detrimental according to your argument

Edited May 15, 2021 by Thorny

[PromoTheRobot]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:45 PM, Taro T said:

And, as @TomWebster pointed out, at the stage of his career that Adams is at, everybody thought Sakic was a joke.  Nobody's laughing now.

Because you're judged by the last thing you did. 

[Brawndo]

8 hours ago, Thorny said:

Trying to identify that variable is certainly BS when you haven't even played him with a capable centre for several years.

Of course you always want the default to be maturity, but if a players grows into that aspect, it's noteworthy. Only in a perfect world do 18 year olds come into the league fully mature. I know I wasn't that, at 18.

- - - 

On a totally unrelated note, I still find this interesting from Friedman:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/31-thoughts-nashville-move-ryan-ellis-instead-mattias-ekholm/

22. It sounds like the Sabres are making some scouting changes. At the very least a shuffling, and then we see about external additions. Could be news on the assistant-GM front (Jason Karmanos very much a contender) this week.

 - Sound like it may indeed only be a shuffle.

I imagine after the Draft in July more names will be added to various positions, when contracts expire 

[Thorner]

12 hours ago, Brawndo said:

I imagine after the Draft in July more names will be added to various positions, when contracts expire 

People keep saying this and I really do get it, but for a team that's been extraordinarily bad, with an extraordinarily weak scouting department in size and aptitude, as it currently stands, with an extraordinarily important draft on the way considering how many picks we have and the fact we might be rebuilding, the standard I see as fitting is equally, appropriately extraordinary. For me, it's not enough to say, "it's just how it is". The Sabres do not have the luxury of approaching this as the other teams, stable in their scouting departments, can. Bring in a few scouts not under contract, at least. *Every* capable scout is currently employed? That stretches the limits of credulity IMO.

Or, ya know, trade some picks. 

They have to actively *address* the situation - the proactive nature of what they should attempt is something they decline to do, across the board, on so many other facets. Being failure to plan for inevitable injuries, hoping for the best case scenarios re: almost every position on the roster, etc etc 

They are choosing to approach an important draft with a barren department and a beyond-full slate of picks. They need to actively find a solution to that. But we all know they won't. They'll keep all the lottery tickets, they'll select their crapshoot USHL/USNTDP/NCAA players, almost exclusively (that's where we had the scouts) and they'll be done with it. 

Maybe they target 2022 picks for JE, which, while probably smart, given their currently skin-and-bones department, also has the added benefit (for KA) of bumping back that timeline satisfyingly further.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

People keep saying this and I really do get it, but for a team that's been extraordinarily bad, with an extraordinarily weak scouting department in size and aptitude, as it currently stands, with an extraordinarily important draft on the way considering how many picks we have and the fact we might be rebuilding, the standard I see as fitting is equally, appropriately extraordinary. For me, it's not enough to say, "it's just how it is". The Sabres do not have the luxury of approaching this as the other teams, stable in their scouting departments, can. Bring in a few scouts not under contract, at least. *Every* capable scout is currently employed? That stretches the limits of credulity IMO.

Or, ya know, trade some picks. 

They have to actively *address* the situation - the proactive nature of what they should attempt is something they decline to do, across the board, on so many other facets. Being failure to plan for inevitable injuries, hoping for the best case scenarios re: almost every position on the roster, etc etc 

They are choosing to approach an important draft with a barren department and a beyond-full slate of picks. They need to actively find a solution to that. But we all know they won't. They'll keep all the lottery tickets, they'll select their crapshoot USHL/USNTDP/NCAA players, almost exclusively (that's where we had the scouts) and they'll be done with it. 

Maybe they target 2022 picks for JE, which, while probably smart, given their currently skin-and-bones department, also has the added benefit (for KA) of bumping back that timeline satisfyingly further.

Who would they be scouting right now? The only league that played that they did not cover was the WHL. 
The SHL was covered by Andres Forsberg.

The Q was covered by Kevin Devine

The USHL, NCAA and USNTDP was covered by Forton and Crowe.

Both Karmanos and Adams were in attendance at the U-18s in Texas. 
 

Maybe they paid some Western Canadian Area Scouts a pre diem for reports on specific players. (Probably Not)

What they did to the Hockey Operations Department did not go unnoticed by the League as well as the Captain of the Sabres and His Agent. 
 

That being said it’s only been 32 days since Karmanos was hired, I imagine He and Adams have some people in mind to fill out positions. Why hire people for positions when they will be essentially only watching video at this point, especially if they are not the ones you want to move forward with?

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Who would they be scouting right now? The only league that played that they did not cover was the WHL. 
The SHL was covered by Andres Forsberg.

The Q was covered by Kevin Devine

The USHL, NCAA and USNTDP was covered by Forton and Crowe.

Both Karmanos and Adams were in attendance at the U-18s in Texas. 
 

Maybe they paid some Western Canadian Area Scouts a pre diem for reports on specific players. (Probably Not)

What they did to the Hockey Operations Department did not go unnoticed by the League as well as the Captain of the Sabres and His Agent. 
 

That being said it’s only been 32 days since Karmanos was hired, I imagine He and Adams have some people in mind to fill out positions. Why hire people for positions when they will be essentially only watching video at this point, especially if they are not the ones you want to move forward with?

That's fair. I wonder if they've explored trading any

More focused on bringing them in right now, I suppose

[Brawndo]

18 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That's fair. I wonder if they've explored trading any

Probably after the Expansion Draft. I imagine there will be some cap strapped teams looking to move some players. 
 

On the other hand, with the uncertainty with this draft, it’s entirely possible some of the best players are selected in the second and third rounds. 
 

One of Karmanos Top Priorities should be building out a real analytics department. It’s the reason Carolina and Toronto draft well.

[I-90 W]

The more I think about it, I can envision a scenario where Jack, Sam and Risto all demand a trade and KA basically tells them no (because the value coming back isn’t worth it). Man, if things are bad now, imagine how much worse it will be if that happens? What a mess. I keep going back and forth in my mind from trade these malcontents now, to they signed a contract, make them stay and who cares what they want. At some point KA may be forced to drop the hammer. 

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, I-90 W said:

I keep going back and forth in my mind from trade these malcontents now

The assumption you're making is that they're malcontents.  Maybe they just want to win and if they stay, the young core matures, and they get some goaltending, they will win and everyone will be happy.

[I-90 W]

9 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

The assumption you're making is that they're malcontents.  Maybe they just want to win and if they stay, the young core matures, and they get some goaltending, they will win and everyone will be happy.

Well, I mean, they are malcontents. Not saying that they don’t have a right to be though. Trust me, I do not hold ownership blameless in this situation. 

[Pimlach]

28 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

Well, I mean, they are malcontents. Not saying that they don’t have a right to be though. Trust me, I do not hold ownership blameless in this situation. 

Ownership is terrible in that they have created a rotating door of front office people, mostly the wrong people, and no stability.  You hear about interference (the early zest for free agents, the ROR trade, mass firings, etc) and its real.  
 

The players have been part of the problem too.  There are stories of Murray’s rebuild  core (Eichel, Reinhart, ROR, Kane, Bogo, Lehner) with very bad habits off the ice - drinking, partying, you name it - including not listening to the other veterans or coaches.  This group should have done better.    
 

Gutting all the Ruff/Regier veterans created a leadership void and a lack of identity that is now 10 years old.  Jack’s presser was a testament to his willingness to lead this group, and not a good one.  
 

Risto can be traded anytime.  I prefer we go within Borgen/Samuelson.    Reinhart and Eichel want out.  The problem is trusting Adams and this FO to get good value.  
 

Everybody complains about not having a 2C.  He haven’t had a legit goalie tandem in far too long.  It starts with the goalie.  
 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Pimlach

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Ownership is terrible in that they have created a rotating door of front office people, mostly the wrong people, and no stability.  You hear about interference (the early zest for free agents, the ROR trade, mass firings, etc) and its real.  
 

The players have been part of the problem too.  There are stories of Murray’s rebuild  core (Eichel, Reinhart, ROR, Kane, Bogo, Lehner) with very bad habits off the ice - drinking, partying, you name it - including not listening to the other veterans or coaches.  This group should have done better.    

 

And ownership will probably block the Eichel Trade this Summer, meaning the return after His NMC kicks in will be trash
 

Brian Gionta was signed as an UFA and Josh Gorges was traded for to provide leadership to the young core. 
Two of the players you mentioned, almost guaranteed that was not going to happen 

[dudacek]

23 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

And ownership will probably block the Eichel Trade this Summer, meaning the return after His NMC kicks in will be trash
 

Brian Gionta was signed as an UFA and Josh Gorges was traded for to provide leadership to the young core. 
Two of the players you mentioned, almost guaranteed that was not going to happen 

One would assume that if Adams is shopping Eichel and planning his build around that move that the owners have signed off on that plan.

The fact that the bolded could still come true despite that tells you all you need to know about the Sabres.

Edited May 17, 2021 by dudacek

[Stoner]

"We still have Jack." –Terry

[Brawndo]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

One would assume that if Adams is shopping Eichel and planning his build around that move that the owners have signed off on that plan.

The fact that the bolded could still come true despite that tells you all you need to know about the Sabres.

I wouldn’t assume anything when it comes to this organization, old habits die hard for some people 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

I wouldn’t assume anything when it comes to this organization, old habits die hard for some people 

What distresses me is to see that human genius has limitations, and human stupidity has none. -- Alexandre Dumas

[SwampD]

So, is the disconnect over? I can’t link the Buffalo news article, but is Harrington saying that the team is going to let him have the surgery?

Edited July 31, 2021 by SwampD