Should KA just allow Eichel to have the surgery now?

[Curt]

11 minutes ago, Radar said:

Quite frankly the speculation on medical issues by fans is getting rediculous. Obviously there's a problem between Eichel and the team. Let's not offer opinions that go into medical evaluations. We're not qualified or at least I don't think we are.

Agree.  Even if we were all spinal surgeons, we have not seen the medical information or examined Eichel.  How would we know what’s best?

[thewookie1]

21 minutes ago, Radar said:

Quite frankly the speculation on medical issues by fans is getting rediculous. Obviously there's a problem between Eichel and the team. Let's not offer opinions that go into medical evaluations. We're not qualified or at least I don't think we are.

I mostly agree with you that we cannot outright say who’s in the right in this scenario. We can however base opinions on what we know from Friedman’s article and our own knowledge on the general subject. 

What I do know is that surgeries regarding herniated disks are typically a last resort and can have life altering outcomes. For all we know only one of the doctors gave him this idea and he merely saw the shorter recovery time and jumped at it. Or the Sabres are being overly cautious to the point of alienating their superstar. It likely lands somewhere in between.

[SDS]

52 minutes ago, Shootica said:

You're right, the article doesn't dabble on fusion surgery.  Friedman is just reporting that Eichel is exploring ADR surgery and that the Sabres are reluctant on that procedure given the lack of similar athletes who have undergone it.  And he says that they've agreed on a pause to see how he reacts to rest and if it improves on its own.

But that injury was almost two months ago now, so I'd have to imagine that they have a pretty good idea of if rest and recovery will do the trick here.  And if Jack is still at odds with the team and pushing for ADR surgery, I'm inclined to believe that rest has not fixed the issue.

The reason I mentioned fusion is that as far as I know there aren't a ton of options when it comes to a herniated disc if rest/rehab don't do the trick, and fusion seems to be the most common surgical procedure.  So I don't see it as too huge a leap to say that if rest didn't do the trick, that would be where the team docs look to next. 

Now maybe they're at a point where the team docs are happy with how he has responded to rest and feel that he does not need surgery of any sort, and Eichel is still strongly in favor of surgery.  I could see that being a reasonable case as well.

For what it’s worth, reabsorption of the herniation occurs mainly in six months according to the published studies.

18 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

3 months from the date on a somewhat experimental surgery regarding one of the most important parts of his body.

If he comes back and takes off, that’s good but still leaves us with his NMC hanging over our head if we can’t make him happy. 

However if he comes back and looks like a shell of his former self or has set backs that lead into November on; we still have the NMC over our heads but far less to work with.

This has been done for decades in Europe. The surgery isn’t really experimental. Outcomes on world class athletes are a different story.

[LabattBlue]

Any word on the time of Adams and Granato PC's tomorrow?

[Andrew Amerk]

3 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Any word on the time of Adams and Granato PC's tomorrow?

It probably depends on how long it takes KA to memorize what TPegs wants him to say. 

[IKnowPhysics]

22 hours ago, darksabre said:

Curt is right though.

100%, no question.

 

But if we're gonna have threads rooted in unverifiable speculation, might as well egg 'em on to go 100 for our amusement.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by IKnowPhysics

[thewookie1]

Vogl confirmed earlier on Twitter that the Colorado based 2nd opinion also recommended the same treatment as the Sabres. 

[nfreeman]

On 5/11/2021 at 1:28 PM, Hank said:

Are there any legalities preventing Jack from paying for the surgery out of his own pocket?

Could the Sabres have the option to void his contract if he did and it wasn't successful?

I think this is what it comes down to -- Jack wants the surgery, and the question is who bears the $50MM risk of a bad outcome.  It's pretty reasonable IMHO for the Sabres not to want to bear that risk if 2 doctors, including the Colorado specialist who isn't affiliated with the Sabres, are advising against it.

[SDS]

Let me throw out a different perspective…

A 24 year old kid, billed to be a generational hockey phenom, is willing to undergo surgery that everyone who gets it utterly dreads. 

He is scared. His entire future rides on this. Those herniated disks impinge upon the spinal cord. 

He’s mired in a losing organization with a body that routinely gives out on him. His entire future is a greased pig right now and he doesn’t know how to hang on.

Please don’t consider this surgery like he wants to get his knee scoped or a ligament strengthened. He wants to see if he can be the first NHL player to play with an artificial disc that hopefully won’t move and damage his spinal cord. 

And they can move. If the disk’s teeth don’t bury into the bone it can slip.

This surgery carries significant risk for an office manager of not being entirely successful. I can’t imagine what the risks are for a world-class athlete.

Bear with him if he isn’t handling things the way you think they should be handled. 

[PerreaultForever]

Don't let him have the surgery.

Trade him (along with the medical reports) and let that team worry about his surgery or not surgery.

make the picks in the trade conditional on successful surgery if they want, but don't take the risk and lose the timing opportunity. If his post surgical rehab takes longer than expected we will get to the NMC and we're hooped. 

Just trade him and end it. 

[Shootica]

On 5/11/2021 at 5:20 PM, SDS said:

For what it’s worth, reabsorption of the herniation occurs mainly in six months according to the published studies.

This has been done for decades in Europe. The surgery isn’t really experimental. Outcomes on world class athletes are a different story.

I haven't checked back on this site in a couple weeks so this thread is a shade old, but thanks for the info.  I didn't realize the timeline was that long.

Also, I figure I'll link another article on this subject, authored by a PT that has done injury analyses about the Sabres and Bills before.  I found it interesting.

https://www.diebytheblade.com/2021/5/19/22443208/buffalo-sabres-jack-eichels-artificial-disc-conundrum

[JohnC]

On 5/11/2021 at 5:20 PM, SDS said:

 

This has been done for decades in Europe. The surgery isn’t really experimental. Outcomes on world class athletes are a different story.

I hope if Eichel decides to use a European surgeon it is not the same surgeon who amputated the wrong leg. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/health/austria-amputation-wrong-leg-scli-intl/index.html

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by JohnC

[PromoTheRobot]

On 5/11/2021 at 9:28 AM, Crusader1969 said:

If Jacks doctors say do it, Sabres say dont...why not find an impartial specialist?

Or trade him and let his new team decide? I have a feeling his neck will start feeling better soon there after.

Edited May 22, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Marvin]

40 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Or trade him and let his new team decide? I have a feeling his neck will start feeling better soon street after.

Then make the picks condition for a couple of years out contingent on his play.  I would bet money that a 1st for each year Eichel plays 60 games would be cheap.

[bunomatic]

On 5/21/2021 at 3:38 PM, JohnC said:

I hope if Eichel decides to use a European surgeon it is not the same surgeon who amputated the wrong leg. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/health/austria-amputation-wrong-leg-scli-intl/index.html

 

Because stuff like that never happens in North America.😉

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, bunomatic said:

Because stuff like that never happens in North America.😉

What's the saying that carpenters repeat before putting the saw to the wood? Measure twice and cut once. 🙂

[Brawndo]

Friedman mentioned on the Instigators last Thursday some teams were wondering if Jack would change His Mind on having the surgery if he is moved. 

[pi2000]

Isn't he due for a scan here soon?   

IIRC, KA mentioned 2 weeks after the press conference they would rescan and decide on surgery at that point.

[Curt]

7 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Friedman mentioned on the Instigators last Thursday some teams were wondering if Jack would change His Mind on having the surgery if he is moved. 

So basically some teams/GMs are wondering if Eichel is genuinely insistent on having this surgery or if he is just using this as a way to try to get himself off the Sabres.

If Eichel gets traded, then “changes his mind” about the surgery, that’s enough for me to say that he is a phony, self serving liar.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

So basically some teams/GMs are wondering if Eichel is genuinely insistent on having this surgery or if he is just using this as a way to try to get himself off the Sabres.

If Eichel gets traded, then “changes his mind” about the surgery, that’s enough for me to say that he is a phony, self serving liar.

If Jack is using the injury and what is the best treatment to go forward as a smokescreen to move on to a better situation I'm not going to defend him. On the other hand it is not too difficult to understand how frustrating it is for him and others (Reinhart & Risto etc) to feel trapped in an organization stuck for years in the bottom of the standings. This organization has been one of the most unstable and erratically run organizations in the league. Their embarrassing record is a reflection of the constant turmoil. How many coaches and GMs with their different philosophies have the Peulas hired during tenure? 

I'm not sure what is going to happen this offseason? I don't know which of our primary players want out and which will be gone before the start of the next season. But make no mistake that the cause of this absurd predicament has more to do with the management of this franchise than it does with the players. 

[I-90 W]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

So basically some teams/GMs are wondering if Eichel is genuinely insistent on having this surgery or if he is just using this as a way to try to get himself off the Sabres.

If Eichel gets traded, then “changes his mind” about the surgery, that’s enough for me to say that he is a phony, self serving liar.

It’s interesting that some GMs are thinking exactly what some of us are saying, yet got pushback on. Think we all have to agree that it is at least a logical and reasonable thing to speculate on. 

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

So basically some teams/GMs are wondering if Eichel is genuinely insistent on having this surgery or if he is just using this as a way to try to get himself off the Sabres.

If Eichel gets traded, then “changes his mind” about the surgery, that’s enough for me to say that he is a phony, self serving liar.

Disagree, unless we get the full story. If KA has been jerking him around behind the scenes, for example, he may use the injury as his pathway out, but it could be understandable given the circumstances. I'm not saying that's the case, just "Eichel isn't having surgery now" does not represent an equation fulfilled. Not to mention he may have an issue with the Sabres medical staff, full stop 

Kawhi messed around with the Spurs, too, but sometimes a relationship just gets to that point due to animosity on both sides.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Thorny

[Curt]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

If Jack is using the injury and what is the best treatment to go forward as a smokescreen to move on to a better situation I'm not going to defend him. On the other hand it is not too difficult to understand how frustrating it is for him and others (Reinhart & Risto etc) to feel trapped in an organization stuck for years in the bottom of the standings. This organization has been one of the most unstable and erratically run organizations in the league. Their embarrassing record is a reflection of the constant turmoil. How many coaches and GMs with their different philosophies have the Peulas hired during tenure? 

I'm not sure what is going to happen this offseason? I don't know which of our primary players want out and which will be gone before the start of the next season. But make no mistake that the cause of this absurd predicament has more to do with the management of this franchise than it does with the players. 

Definitely not Jack’s fault that the Sabres have been bad.  I can completely understand why he might be unhappy.

However, Jack made an 8 year commitment and to try to get out of it in an underhanded way would reflect negatively.

[Curt]

44 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Disagree, unless we get the full story. If KA has been jerking him around behind the scenes, for example, he may use the injury as his pathway out, but it could be understandable given the circumstances. I'm not saying that's the case, just "Eichel isn't having surgery now" does not represent an equation fulfilled. Not to mention he may have an issue with the Sabres medical staff, full stop 

Kawhi messed around with the Spurs, too, but sometimes a relationship just gets to that point due to animosity on both sides.

Perhaps my wording was harsh, but I’m going to stand with my overall feeling.  If Eichel was getting jerked around behind closed doors (I don’t even know what this would mean) then he and his agent can reciprocate harshly behind closed doors.  But to put on a show for the media about really needing the surgery, but then changing his tune after changing organizations, that would reflect negatively on him in my eyes.

[PromoTheRobot]

12 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Friedman mentioned on the Instigators last Thursday some teams were wondering if Jack would change His Mind on having the surgery if he is moved. 

Hmmmm.