IF the Sabres trade Jack and Sam...

[Curt]

1 minute ago, I-90 W said:

I can see the logic behind what you’re saying, but I don’t think KA has much of a choice at this point. If he doesn’t move Jack I think the Eichel camp will outright demand a trade in public (explicitly) and that would just be such a bad look. I think Jack is being traded no matter what at this point. Possibly Sam too.

I think Sam is more likely to be traded than Jack.  Sam is going walk for nothing in a year if no trade is made.

[steveoath]

1 hour ago, Kong said:

I was reading Ranger fans talking about Eichel and to a man, they don't want him. They call him an expensive, injury-prone crybaby. It occurs to me after all this, maybe nobody wants Eichel?

When did fans get what they want though? I don't think any if us on here wanted Eakin or Irwin. Ranger owner is, IMHO, someone who needs to make the big statement. For that reason alone I think a move to NYC is on the cards.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Sure it is. But there's a trade off - if we trade 1 for 1, it'll probably be not for a guy like Barkov who is almost as good, it'll be for a really good player, but one where there is clear separation (an example being Scheifele (on the plus side, that contract would be swell). 

So it comes down to whether you want a certain 1C, but one that's certainly a step down from Jack, or if you want to try and acquire a bundle of futures where, maybe one of the assets or more becomes as good or better than Scheifele, or whoever the player is, but there's also a risk none of them come close. Timeline is also a factor. 

Does one favor certainly, with the cost of potential, or does one value potential, at the cost of certainty. I lean towards the former - this franchise needs as much of a sure thing as it can get, imo. The less guesswork and evaluation this particular management group has to put in, the better. I don't trust them. 

I can’t blame you for not having trust in the organization, but I think that is in effect regardless of what type of trade they pursue.

I do see the appeal of acquire a high quality known quantity.  How many of those are available though?  I just don’t think a good team is going to trade their 1C for Eichel.  So for me, you are looking at struggling teams.  How many of them have #1 quality C’s?  How many of those players have any youth or term?  I’m not very interested in trading Eichel for a 30 year old with 2 years of term remaining.  I think if we were to actually go through it, the pool of potential matches is extremely small.  I suppose it’s not impossible but I doubt a match can be made.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

I think Sam is more likely to be traded than Jack.  Sam is going walk for nothing in a year if no trade is made.

I agree with you that Sam is more likely to be traded than Jack. My sense is that he is tired playing for such a erratic franchise that hasn't come close to sniffing the playoffs during his career. As he has publicly stated the standard scenario for him is not only not making the playoffs but not even coming close to playing meaningful end of season games. How dispiriting that must be for him? How do you think he feels when he sees Taylor Hall forcing the Sabres to trade him to a team he wants to go to and ends up thriving with his new team and playing in the playoffs? 

Sam has been our most consistent performer playing for one of the most inept franchises in the league. How many coaches and GMs has he played for?  Well now  to a degree he has the leverage to force a change. It doesn't matter if the organization is willing to give him an extended contract. If he wants to be somewhere else he will be in a position of leverage with his upcoming UFA status (as you noted) to force a change. 

Because of the systemic incompetence of this turbulent organization it has created a franchise well known for its futility. It's become a destination where players not only don't want to come to but also a place where they want to get out of. When you constantly crap on yourself you can't hide from the stink!

[Buffalonill]

11 hours ago, Gabrielor said:

Eichel for Lafreniere, 1st(16), Strome

Reinhart for Quick, Turcotte

That jack trade is so bad like wtf 

[Buffalonill]

If you guys dont think you can get Byfield +++ thats madness hes a top ten center in the nhl at age 24 

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you that Sam is more likely to be traded than Jack. My sense is that he is tired playing for such a erratic franchise that hasn't come close to sniffing the playoffs during his career. As he has publicly stated the standard scenario for him is not only not making the playoffs but not even coming close to playing meaningful end of season games. How dispiriting that must be for him? How do you think he feels when he sees Taylor Hall forcing the Sabres to trade him to a team he wants to go to and ends up thriving with his new team and playing in the playoffs? 

Sam has been our most consistent performer playing for one of the most inept franchises in the league. How many coaches and GMs has he played for?  Well now  to a degree he has the leverage to force a change. It doesn't matter if the organization is willing to give him an extended contract. If he wants to be somewhere else he will be in a position of leverage with his upcoming UFA status (as you noted) to force a change. 

Because of the systemic incompetence of this turbulent organization it has created a franchise well known for its futility. It's become a destination where players not only don't want to come to but also a place where they want to get out of. When you constantly crap on yourself you can't hide from the stink!

I’m sure that most players are tired of the organization and of losing.  However, it’s the specific contract situation that Sam is in which basically guarantees he will be moved.

[Weave]

37 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The only real argument I've seen for electing to trade Jack is, "well, haven't won with him, so why not". As soon as we put together another below-standard team, that mentality just shifts over to the other valuable assets we have, next. 

If we never succeed in building an actual team around the few good pieces we have, the good pieces we have will continue to be devalued in the eyes of fans and their asset value squandered. 

This is why Jack cannot be traded for futures.  If he is moved, he needs to be moved for actual NHL assets.

I also believe that the acquisition of Hall is a clear sign that ownership is done rebuilding and the time to ice a winner is now.  I do not expect KA to have the luxury of a time buffer for success whether Jack is moved or not.

[Thorner]

21 minutes ago, Curt said:

I can’t blame you for not having trust in the organization, but I think that is in effect regardless of what type of trade they pursue.

I do see the appeal of acquire a high quality known quantity.  How many of those are available though?  I just don’t think a good team is going to trade their 1C for Eichel.  So for me, you are looking at struggling teams.  How many of them have #1 quality C’s?  How many of those players have any youth or term?  I’m not very interested in trading Eichel for a 30 year old with 2 years of term remaining.  I think if we were to actually go through it, the pool of potential matches is extremely small.  I suppose it’s not impossible but I doubt a match can be made.

Ask @Duckywhat he thinks. Would the Jets trade Scheifele for Jack?

Have you SEEN the streak the Jets have been on? They *are* struggling 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorner]

34 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

I can see the logic behind what you’re saying, but I don’t think KA has much of a choice at this point. If he doesn’t move Jack I think the Eichel camp will outright demand a trade in public (explicitly) and that would just be such a bad look. I think Jack is being traded no matter what at this point. Possibly Sam too.

Oh, I know. I’m not giving up hope, but they likely move him. Maybe they indeed have no choice, but their fault lies within the fact they let the situation get to a point where that was the inevitable outcome 

6 minutes ago, Weave said:

This is why Jack cannot be traded for futures.  If he is moved, he needs to be moved for actual NHL assets.

I also believe that the acquisition of Hall is a clear sign that ownership is done rebuilding and the time to ice a winner is now.  I do not expect KA to have the luxury of a time buffer for success whether Jack is moved or not.

To god’s ears 

[Crusader1969]

11 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

That jack trade is so bad like wtf 

I disagree,  I think we should be doing cartwheels if that's the return. My expectation for the return is much much lower

[Drag0nDan]

Just now, Crusader1969 said:

I disagree,  I think we should be doing cartwheels if that's the return. My expectation for the return is much much lower

Yeah - I don't expect to see the top prospect in a system.  It's a player (or 2 to make dollars work), a high end prospect, and picks.  Something more like

Strome, Georgiev, Chytil/Miller, and picks.  

They'll want to keep zibanejad.  And the no-gos are likely fox, kaako, lafreniere, and shesterkin.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Drag0nDan

[Crusader1969]

1 minute ago, Drag0nDan said:

Yeah - I don't expect to see the top prospect in a system.  It's a player (or 2 to make dollars work), a high end prospect, and picks.  Something more like

Strome, Georgiev, Chytil/Miller, and picks.  

yep.. if you get a 1st rounder for the pick then you just have to accept

[Drag0nDan]

Just now, Crusader1969 said:

yep.. if you get a 1st rounder for the pick then you just have to accept

Yep.  I'd probably take miller to go with strome and georgiev, tack on whatever picks to make it more palatable.  Gives you a goalie for a few seasons, center stop-gap, and miller who looked like a pretty good defenseman who slots in behind dahlin on the left. 

I don't think the team is "better", but at least they'd have a goalie (who gets a chance to start more), a center who can kill penalties and play power play, and a high end prospect who looks to be a solid player.

[Crusader1969]

2 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Yep.  I'd probably take miller to go with strome and georgiev, tack on whatever picks to make it more palatable.  Gives you a goalie for a few seasons, center stop-gap, and miller who looked like a pretty good defenseman who slots in behind dahlin on the left. 

I don't think the team is "better", but at least they'd have a goalie (who gets a chance to start more), a center who can kill penalties and play power play, and a high end prospect who looks to be a solid player.

I would lean Chytil or Kravtsov.  but in general i completely agree, thats about the best they are going to get for him at this point

[Gatorman0519]

This is madness. The 21st century has not been kind to Buffalo. A revolving door of horrendous and incompetent front offices and this is what you get: A fully entrenched losing and dysfunctional culture that is now unprecedented. 

[Drag0nDan]

Just now, Crusader1969 said:

I would lean Chytil or Kravtsov.  but in general i completely agree, thats about the best they are going to get for him at this point

Yeah, whoever you think has a better chance of being a stud.  Miller has the longer term as well.  Dahlin miller bryson/samuelsson.  At this point bring up Laaksonen on the right. 

[Buffalonill]

29 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I disagree,  I think we should be doing cartwheels if that's the return. My expectation for the return is much much lower

So let get this straight you want a winger for our franchise center and and ufa ? With a draft pick 

 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I would lean Chytil or Kravtsov.  but in general i completely agree, thats about the best they are going to get for him at this point

 You're in a different reality if you dont think a 24 year old franchise  center will not get more 

[I-90 W]

2 hours ago, Kong said:

I was reading Ranger fans talking about Eichel and to a man, they don't want him. They call him an expensive, injury-prone crybaby. It occurs to me after all this, maybe nobody wants Eichel?

Everyone wants Eichel but I’m already seeing some other fanbases not liking how he is going about this. It’s odd that our own fans seem to be siding with him while other fanbases are siding with ownership. I don’t think his presser was a good look for him.

[Crusader1969]

I will say this about the Sabres, 

I enjoyed watching them the last 2 months of the season and Eichel was not once in the line-up.  I was excited to see Eichel with the new line-up and coach but if you can add a couple of other high end players / prospects and be done with the Eichel drama....you have to consider it.

[Marvin]

I will congratulate GMKA if he is able to extract a legitimate 1st line player for either of them.  I personally think the best he can do is a couple 2nd-3rd line players and a first for either of them.  I also take any OK prospect they throw in on top.  I might be able to put a buffer between Mittlestadt and the top line talent.  If  we can roll a line-up where Cozens is legitimately my #3a centre and Girgensons and Okposo have an established, quality #3b centre, I might actually be happy about all this.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

Everyone wants Eichel but I’m already seeing some other fanbases not liking how he is going about this. It’s odd that our own fans seem to be siding with him while other fanbases are siding with ownership. I don’t think his presser was a good look for him.

This is too anecdotal. I’ve seen way, way more support of Jack on the neutral source twitter posts. And mostly just trade proposals cause they want to find a way to get him. 

So our two readings cancel each other out I guess? Haha 

[I-90 W]

Just now, Thorny said:

This is too anecdotal. I’ve seen way, way more support of Jack on the neutral source twitter posts. And mostly just trade proposals cause they want to find a way to get him. 

So our two readings cancel each other out I guess? Haha 

Lol fair. My gage is facebook which tends to be just critical of anyone and everything so that may come into play as well. 

[Pimlach]

15 hours ago, Weave said:

I think it would have to be up there.  Richards/Carter was probably bigger because Philly was a really, really good team at the time of the trade (if my memory is accurate).

Not gonna lie.  This is all very intriguing to me.  I don't need a star coming back for Jack if I can fill 2-3 holes (including 1C) with very good players.  I'm actually more concerned about how we replace Sam.  At minimum we'll have a hole at 1RW and I don't think we get a 1RW back.  What would be the point of the team picking Sam up, right? 

Weird that a Sam trade would be more concerning to me.

Correct ...because Sam is very steady and has proven he can play C as well as RW.  I would try to get a real nhl goalie, a good emerging forward prospect and a pick for Sam. My Jack trade would demand a top 6 C and a top 6 winger (one was to be an emerging star), plus more in prospects/ picks.  This would essentially replace both players, add a good goalie, add several young prospects and add picks.  
 

We need a competent Front Office to do this.  The shame of it all is the rebuild was not a rebuild.  It was a tank and then floundering by several inexperienced GMs.  We have yet to see a cohesive rebuild by a competent front office.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by Pimlach

[Radar]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Correct ...because Sam is very steady and has proven he can play C as well as RW.  I would try to get a real nhl goalie, a good emerging forward prospect and a pick for Sam. My Jack trade would demand a top 6 C and a winger, plus more in prospects/ picks.  
 

We need a competent Front Office to do this.  The shame of it all is the rebuild was not a rebuild.  It was a tank and then floundering by several inexperienced GMs.  We have yet to see a cohesive rebuild by a competent front office.  

Pegula doesn't seem competent to hire competence.