2021 NHL Playoffs 1st Round

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

It highlights the impact of a player playing in a dysfunctional system compared to the same player performing in a smartly run system. It also highlights the fact that a player surrounded by better players performs better than with less support. You don't think that Jack or Reinhart aren't aware of the benefit of playing in an incompetently run organization compared to playing in a well-run organization?

Do you actually think the Pegulas have been blithely following the same path for 10 years and the play of Taylor Hall in Boston is what it is going to take to make them change? They’ve done nothing but change.

They are on their 4th GM, and their 7th coach. They tried spending in free agency, tanking, accelerating the rebuild through trades, patiently filling around the edges while developing from within, and this year’s veteran patch job. They’ve been led by a veteran warhorse, an old school scout, a button-down corporate MBA and an out-of-the-box trusted in-house lieutenant. They’ve been coached by Buffalo’s best-ever, a college development guy, an old-school meat-and-potatoes motivator, a proven Stanley Cup winner, a hot, highly-ranked young assistant and an out-of-the-box positive thinking guru.

Taylor Hall was yet another attempt to surround their players with better players. Firing Krueger was yet another attempt to change the not smartly-run system.

So what if Taylor Hall playing well in Boston showed them that a high-talent low-character player can excel on the 2nd line of a strong organization? They should already know that, and probably did.

Its ridiculous to suggest they don’t know what they have to do, it’s just that they have yet to figure out how.

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by dudacek

[Gatorman0519]

Skinner is probably still scoring 25 goals on a Boston type team as well.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Do you actually think the Pegulas have been blithely following the same path for 10 years and the play of Taylor Hall in Boston is what it is going to take to make them change? They’ve done nothing but change.

They are on their 4th GM, and their 7th coach. They tried spending in free agency, tanking, accelerating the rebuild through trades, patiently filling around the edges while developing from within, and this year’s veteran patch job. They’ve been led by a veteran warhorse, an old school scout, a button-down corporate MBA and an out-of-the-box trusted in-house lieutenant. They’ve been coached by Buffalo’s best-ever, a college development guy, an old-school meat-and-potatoes motivator, a proven Stanley Cup winner, a hot, highly-ranked young assistant and an out-of-the-box positive thinking guru.

Taylor Hall was an attempt to surround their players with better players. Firing Krueger was yet another attempt to change the not smartly-run system.

So what if Taylor Hall playing well in Boston showed them that a high-talent low-character player can excel on the 2nd line of a strong organization? They should already know that, and probably did.

Its ridiculous to suggest they don’t know what they have to do, it’s just that they have yet to figure out how.

 

What are you saying that I and most everyone doesn't already agree with? The fundamental problem that has kept this franchise mired in the muck of mediocrity and public humiliation is self-induced. Bad decisions laid on top of bad decisions. The Pegulas belatedly got it right with the Bills because the right person was hired to not only coach the team but also structure the organization. Until the same thing is done with the hockey operation this franchise will continue to flail. 

I'm not totally negative about the situation. I believe that if Granato is hired as the coach that will be a step in the right direction. And I am still receptive to the idea that KA can move make the right decisions and move things in the right direction. 

[dudacek]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What are you saying that I and most everyone doesn't already agree with? The fundamental problem that has kept this franchise mired in the muck of mediocrity and public humiliation is self-induced. Bad decisions laid on top of bad decisions. The Pegulas belatedly got it right with the Bills because the right person was hired to not only coach the team but also structure the organization. Until the same thing is done with the hockey operation this franchise will continue to flail. 

I'm not totally negative about the situation. I believe that if Granato is hired as the coach that will be a step in the right direction. And I am still receptive to the idea that KA can move make the right decisions and move things in the right direction. 

So what exactly are you expecting the Sabres to learn and benefit from, in terms of Hall's play in in Boston?

How will Terry finish this sentence three years from now as the Sabres advance to the final four: "I think the turning point was in 2021, when Taylor Hall played so well after we traded him to Boston..."

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

What lesson do you expect the Pegulas to learn from how Taylor Hall is playing in Boston?

Not about how he's playing, but about how much he likes it there and why. The team culture. It's a culture that brings out the best in players and makes them want to give their all for their team. 

Pat LaFontaine understood it, there's your initial mistake. They keep going from there. 

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

He is better in Boston because:

1 - He is playing with a much better team,

2 - he is not  expected to lead (which he does not do), 

3 - the team will kick his ass if doesn’t play hard and contribute. 
 

 

idk about "kick his ass" but you watch how that team interacts with each other on and off the ice. We were like that once upon a time...............

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

So what exactly are you expecting the Sabres to learn and benefit from, in terms of Hall's play in in Boston?

How will Terry finish this sentence three years from now as the Sabres advance to the final four: "I think the turning point was in 2021, when Taylor Hall played so well after we traded him to Boston..."

You are going off in a direction that makes no sense to me. You are getting consumed by a side issue that has little to do with the substantive reason why this is a failed franchise. If the owner wants to learn anything that is meaningful he has to look in the mirror and recognize that the person who is staring back at him is the person who has F*****ked up. He is the primary reason why the franchise that he has owned for a decade is snickered at by those involved in the business. What owner in this league would think that eliminating the staff of the scouting department is a wise decision? What knowledgeably hockey person believes that hiring and firing a coach and GM every other year is a recipe for stability? The lesson to be learned by the Hall experience is that the return for playing in a dysfunctional environment is dramatically less than the return when playing in a positive environment. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not about how he's playing, but about how much he likes it there and why. The team culture. It's a culture that brings out the best in players and makes them want to give their all for their team. 

Pat LaFontaine understood it, there's your initial mistake. They keep going from there. 

idk about "kick his ass" but you watch how that team interacts with each other on and off the ice. We were like that once upon a time...............

He likes it there because they are winning and he doesn't have to be the one counted on to make sure that happens.

If only the Pegulas would realize winning is the solution and give it a try.

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are going off in a direction that makes no sense to me. You are getting consumed by a side issue that has little to do with the substantive reason why this is a failed franchise. If the owner wants to learn anything that is meaningful he has to look in the mirror and recognize that the person who is staring back at him is the person who has F*****ked up. He is the primary reason why the franchise that he has owned for a decade is snickered at by those involved in the business. What owner in this league would think that eliminating the staff of the scouting department is a wise decision? What knowledgeably hockey person believes that hiring and firing a coach and GM every other year is a recipe for stability? The lesson to be learned by the Hall experience is that the return for playing in a dysfunctional environment is dramatically less than the return when playing in a positive environment. 

I entered this train of conversation based on Perreaultforever's  comment that he hopes the Pegulas are learning from Hall's success and have not left that track.

To the bold, I doubt the Pegulas needed Taylor Hall to teach them that lesson; to most it's self-evident and they have 10 years of examples to draw from. What the Pegulas need to learn is how to create that environment. In that area, I think Taylor Hall has very little to offer.

[Ducky]

16 hours ago, KC Scouts said:

Yep nice screen Bogo

Not sure the seive was screened on that shot...Dermott is the reason the Habs scored that goal though.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

I entered this train of conversation based on Perreaultforever's  comment that he hopes the Pegulas are learning from Hall's success and have not left that track.

To the bold, I doubt the Pegulas needed Taylor Hall to teach them that lesson; to most it's self-evident and they have 10 years of examples to draw from. What the Pegulas need to learn is how to create that environment. In that area, I think Taylor Hall has very little to offer.

We're both going in circles. I agree with you that he didn't need the Hall situation to learn anything new. As you aptly stated he has plenty of experience based on his own decision-making to draw from. But there is also an obvious lesson to be learned by the Hall trade: A player in a bad situation is less productive than a player in a good situation. What's obvious is obvious.  

[Radar]

Watching playoffs you see how important goalies are when it comes to 5-7 game series.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

He likes it there because they are winning and he doesn't have to be the one counted on to make sure that happens.

If only the Pegulas would realize winning is the solution and give it a try.

In my opinion that is a simplistic and incorrect view. It's about a lot more than simply winning, and not realizing that is why we aren't winning regardless of who we draft, who we sign, or what we do. 

Winning would definitely be nice, but to truly get back to where we were in the golden days it's going to take a huge culture shift. 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

In my opinion that is a simplistic and incorrect view. It's about a lot more than simply winning, and not realizing that is why we aren't winning regardless of who we draft, who we sign, or what we do. 

Winning would definitely be nice, but to truly get back to where we were in the golden days it's going to take a huge culture shift. 

And it starts by acquiring players who create culture, like Chara, and dumping players who need it, like Hall.

[Pimlach]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

And it starts by acquiring players who create culture, like Chara, and dumping players who need it, like Hall.

Very good examples.  Look at our big acquisitions in the last 10 years  - Erhnart, Lieno, Moulson, ROR, Kane, Bogo, Lenher, Okposso, Skinner, Montour, Stahl, Hall. … 

Who creates a positive culture?  Maybe ROR, but keep in mind he joined a strong culture when he went to StL.  

After that the answer is probably none.  There are a few good soldiers in the lust but some of them were  culture killers.  

[thewookie1]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

And it starts by acquiring players who create culture, like Chara, and dumping players who need it, like Hall.

Pretty much; the problem would be finding a couple vets who are willing to help instill it here and can still play to a degree. Gionta and Gorges were one of the few things GMTM did to try and foster a culture but idiotically thought that Gorges could be their #2 Dman. Had Gorges been our #6 and Gionta just been our 3rd line winger; both would of been able to keep a respectable role/output. Instead Gorges got caved as a top pairing dman and was looked at as a joke by some of the younger players.

I do believe Adams had hoped Staal could help with that here but instead he mostly pouted for 2 months and was sent packing. I'm honestly curious if Staal's lack of care hurt Adams personally due to their prior relationship.

[Zamboni]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Very good examples.  Look at our big acquisitions in the last 10 years  - Erhnart, Lieno, Moulson, ROR, Kane, Bogo, Lenher, Okposso, Skinner, Montour, Stahl, Hall. … 

Who creates a positive culture?  Maybe ROR, but keep in mind he joined a strong culture when he went to StL.  

After that the answer is probably none.  There are a few good soldiers in the lust but some of them were  culture killers.  

Ehrhoff, Leino, Okposo, Staal

Sorry I had to be “that guy”. It was driving me crazy 😂

[thewookie1]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Very good examples.  Look at our big acquisitions in the last 10 years  - Erhnart, Lieno, Moulson, ROR, Kane, Bogo, Lenher, Okposso, Skinner, Montour, Stahl, Hall. … 

Who creates a positive culture?  Maybe ROR, but keep in mind he joined a strong culture when he went to StL.  

After that the answer is probably none.  There are a few good soldiers in the lust but some of them were  culture killers.  

Quick addition based on this list.

Ehrhoff and Lieno weren't acquired for culture and never added any anyway. If anything Leino poisoned the well.

Moulson was a good his first couple years but as his play tanked and then GMTM called him out on the radio which soured him.

ROR is a tough one, he's certainly a great competitor and a leader but his biggest problem seems to be his own ego and overwhelming desire for the "C" If he doesn't get what he wants he becomes a child. 

Kane & Lehner were varying levels of headcases and only hurt the culture. Lehner, as he is now, however would of likely been helpful. 

Okposo is one of the few positive cultural players we've brought in; the guy is just overpaid.

Skinner is an interesting player, I have no idea how he effects things.

Montour was likely neutral.

Staal was supposed to be positive but ended up either being mostly neutral or even a negative.

Hall, instead of inspiring everyone to play better and to get places seemed to instead to add more poison to the well.

Edited May 30, 2021 by thewookie1

[Eleven]

21 hours ago, Hoss said:

I disagree sort of. I like making sure your fans have affordable access to your building. The resale market is ***** nuts and people that have zero intention of attending a game will scoop those tickets up and double/triple the price.

You're making my point. 

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Pretty much; the problem would be finding a couple vets who are willing to help instill it here and can still play to a degree. Gionta and Gorges were one of the few things GMTM did to try and foster a culture but idiotically thought that Gorges could be their #2 Dman. Had Gorges been our #6 and Gionta just been our 3rd line winger; both would of been able to keep a respectable role/output. Instead Gorges got caved as a top pairing dman and was looked at as a joke by some of the younger players.

IMHO, Gorges was unquestionably our 2nd best defenceman behind Myers on those teams.  The rest of that defence was as bad as most of the forwards.  One of the reasons The Tank was doomed to fail was because most of the veterans were at least 1 level too high in the line-up and could not lead by example while the other players could support their examples like torn jockstraps.

Addendum 1: that team iced a maximum of 3 defencemen at one time who belonged in the NHL: Myers/Bogosian, Gorges, and Weber.

Addendum 2: that team had no top-line forwards, maybe 3 top-6 forwards in Ennis, Moulson, and Stafford, and only 2-3 more who had earned NHL shifts were above the 4th line in Gionta and Foligno with maybe Hodgson.

Girgensons, Ristolainen, Zadorov, et al. belonged in Rochester.

How the hell can veterans lead and youngsters learn good habits where half the defence have no business being in the NHL and 9 forwards who either should have been learning in the AHL or were barely 4th liners?  And when things went well, the GM would panic and trade decent players -- particularly goaltenders who gave the team and coaching staff confidence.

If you want to know why the culture now sucks, it starts with The Tank.  You can't magically turn things around the next season after two seasons of that bilge.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Marvin, Sabres Fan

[Zamboni]

Yea, I’d rather the Sabres be like Colorado. Not like Boston. I prefer Colorado style over Boston style. 

[Hoss]

3 hours ago, Eleven said:

You're making my point. 

Go on because I’m missing it.

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

Yea, I’d rather the Sabres be like Colorado. Not like Boston. I prefer Colorado style over Boston style. 

I don’t give a ***** what style we play. Just win.

[Gatorman0519]

Man would it be nice to be an Avalanche fan right now. What an exciting team. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

And it starts by acquiring players who create culture, like Chara, and dumping players who need it, like Hall.

Exactly. No argument there. 

and like Hall, that includes Eichel and Reinhart and probably several others. 

[Huckleberry]

Is it me, or did they screw up the schedule?  Leafs vs canadians game 7 still being played and 2nd game of 2nd round for bruins vs Islanders.

Jets will have had a week of by the time they play again.

[pastajoe]

56 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Is it me, or did they screw up the schedule?  Leafs vs canadians game 7 still being played and 2nd game of 2nd round for bruins vs Islanders.

Jets will have had a week of by the time they play again.

It’s all because the North division had to play a week of regular season games after everyone else was done because Vancouver had so many games to make up due to Covid postponements. The league didn’t want to wait for them. So it’s continued into the playoffs.

[Stoner]

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

Do you actually think the Pegulas have been blithely following the same path for 10 years and the play of Taylor Hall in Boston is what it is going to take to make them change? They’ve done nothing but change.

Yes, they have followed the same path. And, no, they haven't changed. The path has been marked by not hiring a POHO (at least not one with any power) and not hiring experienced GMs, and not getting out of the way of the people they do hire.

Firing people when the setup inevitably fails isn't evidence they're changing anything but the business cards.