Roster Off-Season Gameplan

[WildCard]

Just now, pi2000 said:

I'm on Team Keep Eichel, but I'll say this.... if these trades go down, KA is taking a page directly from the Brandon Beane playbook... purging the roster of guys who don't fit the culture. 

Build the culture from within by drafting well, selecting the right players who fit the profile, and developing them.   

This worked for the Bills, can it work for the Sabres?   

Patience will be required and they'll need to do a better job drafting, but I believe it could work. 

The Bills really hit on FA and the draft. They also have two phenomenal coordinators. Jury's still out on if the Sabres can do those things, but they might.

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I'm on Team Keep Eichel, but I'll say this.... if these trades go down, KA is taking a page directly from the Brandon Beane playbook... purging the roster of guys who don't fit the culture. 

Build the culture from within by drafting well, selecting the right players who fit the profile, and developing them.   

This worked for the Bills, can it work for the Sabres?   

Patience will be required and they'll need to do a better job drafting, but I believe it could work. 

You make some keen observations. KA on WGR has stated that he has had extensive talks with Beane and McDermott about team building. He said they both stressed that it is just as important, if not more important, to get the right person as it is the right talent. After the Jack "disconnect" comments Adam went public multiple times about building a roster with players who want to be here. 

I'm not making the point that any player is a good or bad guy. Players can get stale being in a frustrating situation for an extended period of time. With Jack and to a lesser extent Reinhart and Risto a change of scenery and a fresh start can be invigorating for both the players and even the team.  

[Taro T]

11 hours ago, pi2000 said:

I'm on Team Keep Eichel, but I'll say this.... if these trades go down, KA is taking a page directly from the Brandon Beane playbook... purging the roster of guys who don't fit the culture. 

Build the culture from within by drafting well, selecting the right players who fit the profile, and developing them.   

This worked for the Bills, can it work for the Sabres?   

Patience will be required and they'll need to do a better job drafting, but I believe it could work. 

IF Eichel (& Reinhart & Ristolainen) truly is (are) a bad apple(s) then the team is better off w/out him (them).

Personally, don't believe that's the case but have never interacted directly w/ him (them).

And, not believing that he belongs in the Turgeon / Housley move them out basket, am not looking forward to seeing him (them) shipped out to try to reset the rebuild to target Dahlin's prime rather than Jack's.  That's setting up for 2 more years of bad hockey when they can literally be 2 moves away from competing provided Granato proves himself to be a good coach.

IF things go right, they could be a good / very good team 3 years from now shipping the supposedly "rotten core" out the door.  But they can be a good team next year & a very good team the year after by tweaking what they have rather than blowing it up.

After Adams moves that looked good (or reasonable in a worst case) blew up in his face last year, have a hard time believing he's right about the guys soon to be moved being bad apples.  And if they aren't bad apples, if he's as wrong about them as Botterill was about O'Reilly, then we're about to "suffer" again for absolutely no good reason.

Hating what this off-season is shaping up to be.

[JohnC]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

IF Eichel (& Reinhart & Ristolainen) truly is (are) a bad apple(s) then the team is better off w/out him (them).

Personally, don't believe that's the case but have never interacted directly w/ him (them).

And, not believing that he belongs in the Turgeon / Housley move them out basket, am not looking forward to seeing him (them) shipped out to try to reset the rebuild to target Dahlin's prime rather than Jack's.  That's setting up for 2 more years of bad hockey when they can literally be 2 moves away from competing provided Granato proves himself to be a good coach.

IF things go right, they could be a good / very good team 3 years from now shipping the supposedly "rotten core" out the door.  But they can be a good team next year & a very good team the year after by tweaking what they have rather than blowing it up.

After Adams moves that looked good (or reasonable in a worst case) blew up in his face last year, have a hard time believing he's right about the guys soon to be moved being bad apples.  And if they aren't bad apples, if he's as wrong about them as Botterill was about O'Reilly, then we're about to "suffer" again for absolutely no good reason.

Hating what this off-season is shaping up to be.

After reading your response I got the same sensation that you did with the probable trades that will happen i.e. trepidation. Could the GM take a more conservative approach and build around the core players that he currently has? Yes he could but there is a risk because of the contract status of two of the aforementioned players (Reinhart and Risto). If they are not moved this offseason they could walk or be dealt at the next trade deadline with a lot less of a return. (I have argued that keeping Risto until the next trade deadline would not be a bad approach to take because I don't think his value would be much diminished if it is decided to trade him at that later time.)  The Jack situation is altogether different. 

I believe, as most others do, that these three players are going to be moved. The prevailing view is that Adams is determined to significantly remake the roster with a different core compared to the departing core. When all is said and done Adams is going to be mostly judged on the return he gets for the departing players.

To say the least I'm queasy about this precarious situation; and to say the least I'm also excited about it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'd like to address the bad apple theory.  I think there are some, but most are just in the wrong culture.  Take DIggs in Minn.  Bad apple there, model citizen here.

The Braves were and still are, to a certain extent, great at taking other team's bad apples and turning them into team first guys.  Guys like Bobby Bonilla and Gary Sheffield were considered bad guys yet here they played well and fit into the team. ]

Part of that is these guys want to be part of winning teams that therefore have a winning culture.  (The winning comes first before the culture imho). They are competitors and hate losing.  Jack and Sam are such guys and our team lets face it had a me first losing culture.  

The only fix is to build a team of guys that grow together and learn to win together.  I think the Sabres for the first time in a decade have that opportunity.  

[JohnC]

35 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'd like to address the bad apple theory.  I think there are some, but most are just in the wrong culture.  Take DIggs in Minn.  Bad apple there, model citizen here.

The Braves were and still are, to a certain extent, great at taking other team's bad apples and turning them into team first guys.  Guys like Bobby Bonilla and Gary Sheffield were considered bad guys yet here they played well and fit into the team. ]

Part of that is these guys want to be part of winning teams that therefore have a winning culture.  (The winning comes first before the culture imho). They are competitors and hate losing.  Jack and Sam are such guys and our team lets face it had a me first losing culture.  

The only fix is to build a team of guys that grow together and learn to win together.  I think the Sabres for the first time in a decade have that opportunity.  

Your last sentence captures the failure of this organization to build/grow a roster. Because of the constant turnover of coaches and GMs there never was any coherency in the roster building. It shouldn't be a surprise that when a new GM comes in that he is going to have a different philosophy that he wants to install. The problem with constantly changing the philosophy toward roster building is that whatever is being worked on by the current GM is going to be altered by the next GM. This repeated starting and stopping and then starting anew extends the timeline to build a roster with players that fit in. It's just a chaotic and foolish way to run a business. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by JohnC

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Your last sentence captures the failure of this organization to build/grow a roster. Because of the constant turnover of coaches and GMs there never was any coherency and them in the roster building. It shouldn't be a surprise that when a new GM comes in that he is going to have a different philosophy that he wants to install. The problem with constantly changing the philosophy toward roster building is that whatever is being worked on by the current GM is going to be altered by the next GM. This repeated starting and stopping and then starting anew extends the timeline to build a roster with players that fit in. It's just a chaotic and foolish way to run a business. 

I agree and have been saying this since TM first started tossing away high draft picks.  We needed to keep our picks, draft and develop and then supplement with vets to fill holes.  

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree and have been saying this since TM first started tossing away high draft picks.  We needed to keep our picks, draft and develop and then supplement with vets to fill holes.  

It's ironic but when short cuts are taken the road to respectability is longer. Expediency may give you a sugar high but it is short lived. In a league with a lot of experienced and talented GMs and front offices you will never be able to catch up to those well run operations. 

[SabresVet]

22 hours ago, Taro T said:

IF Eichel (& Reinhart & Ristolainen) truly is (are) a bad apple(s) then the team is better off w/out him (them).

Personally, don't believe that's the case but have never interacted directly w/ him (them).

And, not believing that he belongs in the Turgeon / Housley move them out basket, am not looking forward to seeing him (them) shipped out to try to reset the rebuild to target Dahlin's prime rather than Jack's.  That's setting up for 2 more years of bad hockey when they can literally be 2 moves away from competing provided Granato proves himself to be a good coach.

IF things go right, they could be a good / very good team 3 years from now shipping the supposedly "rotten core" out the door.  But they can be a good team next year & a very good team the year after by tweaking what they have rather than blowing it up.

After Adams moves that looked good (or reasonable in a worst case) blew up in his face last year, have a hard time believing he's right about the guys soon to be moved being bad apples.  And if they aren't bad apples, if he's as wrong about them as Botterill was about O'Reilly, then we're about to "suffer" again for absolutely no good reason.

Hating what this off-season is shaping up to be.

I'm hating that we're going to be sold on a rebuild that features "guys who want to be here."  You have to question a franchise that has alienated its best two forwards.  Still, there's something deeper going on beyond the losing which is driving trade demands.  I think promoting Adams to be GM, gutting the front office, and other cost-cutting demonstrate a lack of willingness to win.  That doesn't get fixed by hiring a first time NHL HC or young players with potential he's coaching.  

It's been 14 years since Drury and Briere departed.  This off-season will rival that one for organizational ineptitude.  

 

 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, SabresVet said:

I'm hating that we're going to be sold on a rebuild that features "guys who want to be here."  You have to question a franchise that has alienated its best two forwards.  Still, there's something deeper going on beyond the losing which is driving trade demands.  I think promoting Adams to be GM, gutting the front office, and other cost-cutting demonstrate a lack of willingness to win.  That doesn't get fixed by hiring a first time NHL HC or young players with potential he's coaching.  

It's been 14 years since Drury and Briere departed.  This off-season will rival that one for organizational ineptitude.  

In case you haven't seen me say it:

Terry Pegula became a billionaire in part because he looks for up-and-comers who have fewer external biases and fresh vision compared to his competitors.  He, as a general rule, seems to view experienced people who are available on the open market as retreads.  LaFontaine, Murray, Botterill, Housley, Adams, Granato, Beane, and McDermott are all in this mold.  Krueger was miles out of the box, which would have appealed to TP.  Ryan and Bylsma are notable exceptions -- from his point of view, they are probably examples of why you don't hire retreads.

[SabresVet]

44 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

In case you haven't seen me say it:

Terry Pegula became a billionaire in part because he looks for up-and-comers who have fewer external biases and fresh vision compared to his competitors.  He, as a general rule, seems to view experienced people who are available on the open market as retreads.  LaFontaine, Murray, Botterill, Housley, Adams, Granato, Beane, and McDermott are all in this mold.  Krueger was miles out of the box, which would have appealed to TP.  Ryan and Bylsma are notable exceptions -- from his point of view, they are probably examples of why you don't hire retreads.

I'm not here to discuss TPegs' business acumen.  I know someone (take it FWIW) who has proximity to the team and had first-hand experience with him.  The picture you paint is vastly different, at least in hockey, from what I've been told.  The Pegula's took the word of NHL types for whom to hire and it all backfired.  And, ownership is notorious for their role in hockey operations.    

Perhaps you believe that Jason Botterill wanted to offer Skinner an 8 year deal.  Or the same term with Eichel.  Maybe you know that Terry did not like Russian players and did not want to select them in the draft.  Bottom line is you cannot overcome bad ownership, especially when it influences personnel so deeply.  

[Marvin]

9 hours ago, SabresVet said:

I'm not here to discuss TPegs' business acumen.  I know someone (take it FWIW) who has proximity to the team and had first-hand experience with him.  The picture you paint is vastly different, at least in hockey, from what I've been told.  The Pegula's took the word of NHL types for whom to hire and it all backfired.  And, ownership is notorious for their role in hockey operations.    

Perhaps you believe that Jason Botterill wanted to offer Skinner an 8 year deal.  Or the same term with Eichel.  Maybe you know that Terry did not like Russian players and did not want to select them in the draft.  Bottom line is you cannot overcome bad ownership, especially when it influences personnel so deeply.  

Thank you for your point of view.  That is very helpful.

I never believed the contracts for Skinner and Eichel did not have TP's input.  I knew he had to be involved; I just never knew how much.  I inferred that XGMJB got his job with the Kraken because the league essentially absolves him of whatever goofiness happened in Buffalo; that in turn points at the owners.

I just pointed out how he tended to hire newbies as an indication that this was normal for him and that any expectation that he would hire someone experienced was pretty forlorn.

Your first paragraph was something I have suspected.  My info on his GM hires matches your description exactly.

Take whatever I say with a grain if salt.  I mostly work on inference and likelihood.  I just am not a doom-and-gloom type even though I am a born pessimist.

[LGR4GM]

Brian Duff was just on WGR and I enjoy listening to him. He is very insightful. 

"They (Sabres) wanted to talk to the top tier prospects closer to the draft"

[GASabresIUFAN]

Question:  What is your ideal lineup of returning players assuming Risto, Jack and Sam for futures are traded, Miller is lost to expansion, none of the UFA's re-sign but all the RFAs except Sam are retained?  What I'm getting at is assuming this worst case scenario, where are the holes in our roster?

Based on this scenario, I have to place forward Skinner, KO, VO, Girgensons, Mitts, Cozens, R2, Thompson, Asplund, Bjork, and possibly Eakin and Quinn.  On Defense I have Dahlin, Jokiharju, Bryson, Borgen and Samuelsson to work with and nothing in goal.

To me the roster kind of looks like this

Skinner  ?????  VO

R2  Mitts Thompson

Asplund Cozens Bjork

Girgensons ????? KO

Eakin (13th forward); Quinn AHL to start

Dahlin Jokiharju

????  ?????

Bryson Borgen

Minors: Samuelsson, Laaksonen

Goaltenders: Nothing

I think this is a pretty good framework from which KA can work this summer.  He needs two goalies, 2 top  4 D, a top line center, a 4th line center and at least one scoring RW.  No way Meatball wants Eakin in his lineup.  I think there is a good chance that Quinn and Samuelsson force their way onto the roster by mid season.

I think it also clarifies what KA needs to get back for Jack, Sam and Risto.  I'd like to see as part of their deals, at least one stay at home D, a center that can play 1st line well enough to take pressure off Cozens and Mitts and at least one goaltender.  I also think it helps clarify what KA needs to do in the draft if he can get Sam or Jack traded by the draft.  We needs centers and another dynamic scoring threat in the pipeline.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say Eklund (C/LW) is probably NHL ready and the more I read I think he should be our 1st pick in a close race with Beniers.  

 

 

[freester]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Question:  What is your ideal lineup of returning players assuming Risto, Jack and Sam for futures are traded, Miller is lost to expansion, none of the UFA's re-sign but all the RFAs except Sam are retained?  What I'm getting at is assuming this worst case scenario, where are the holes in our roster?

Based on this scenario, I have to place forward Skinner, KO, VO, Girgensons, Mitts, Cozens, R2, Thompson, Asplund, Bjork, and possibly Eakin and Quinn.  On Defense I have Dahlin, Jokiharju, Bryson, Borgen and Samuelsson to work with and nothing in goal.

To me the roster kind of looks like this

Skinner  ?????  VO

R2  Mitts Thompson

Asplund Cozens Bjork

Girgensons ????? KO

Eakin (13th forward); Quinn AHL to start

Dahlin Jokiharju

????  ?????

Bryson Borgen

Minors: Samuelsson, Laaksonen

Goaltenders: Nothing

I think this is a pretty good framework from which KA can work this summer.  He needs two goalies, 2 top  4 D, a top line center, a 4th line center and at least one scoring RW.  No way Meatball wants Eakin in his lineup.  I think there is a good chance that Quinn and Samuelsson force their way onto the roster by mid season.

I think it also clarifies what KA needs to get back for Jack, Sam and Risto.  I'd like to see as part of their deals, at least one stay at home D, a center that can play 1st line well enough to take pressure off Cozens and Mitts and at least one goaltender.  I also think it helps clarify what KA needs to do in the draft if he can get Sam or Jack traded by the draft.  We needs centers and another dynamic scoring threat in the pipeline.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say Eklund (C/LW) is probably NHL ready and the more I read I think he should be our 1st pick in a close race with Beniers.  

 

 

Here is where we disagree:

I think Samuelson makes the team immediately.
The 1st pick should be Power regardless of our needs.

I don’t think any of the top draftees will play as rookies in the NHL.  

We’re losing Asplund in expansion draft and not Miller. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Question:  What is your ideal lineup of returning players assuming Risto, Jack and Sam for futures are traded, Miller is lost to expansion, none of the UFA's re-sign but all the RFAs except Sam are retained?  What I'm getting at is assuming this worst case scenario, where are the holes in our roster?

Based on this scenario, I have to place forward Skinner, KO, VO, Girgensons, Mitts, Cozens, R2, Thompson, Asplund, Bjork, and possibly Eakin and Quinn.  On Defense I have Dahlin, Jokiharju, Bryson, Borgen and Samuelsson to work with and nothing in goal.

To me the roster kind of looks like this

Skinner  ?????  VO

R2  Mitts Thompson

Asplund Cozens Bjork

Girgensons ????? KO

Eakin (13th forward); Quinn AHL to start

Dahlin Jokiharju

????  ?????

Bryson Borgen

Minors: Samuelsson, Laaksonen

Goaltenders: Nothing

I think this is a pretty good framework from which KA can work this summer.  He needs two goalies, 2 top  4 D, a top line center, a 4th line center and at least one scoring RW.  No way Meatball wants Eakin in his lineup.  I think there is a good chance that Quinn and Samuelsson force their way onto the roster by mid season.

I think it also clarifies what KA needs to get back for Jack, Sam and Risto.  I'd like to see as part of their deals, at least one stay at home D, a center that can play 1st line well enough to take pressure off Cozens and Mitts and at least one goaltender.  I also think it helps clarify what KA needs to do in the draft if he can get Sam or Jack traded by the draft.  We needs centers and another dynamic scoring threat in the pipeline.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say Eklund (C/LW) is probably NHL ready and the more I read I think he should be our 1st pick in a close race with Beniers.  

 

 

The projected lineup you propose makes a lot of sense. But I have some minor differences. First, assuming Jack and Sam are traded I don't see a #1C coming back. I'm not bothered by that downgraded exchange. What I want/insist coming back in a Jack trade is a young center who will project as a future #1C. A Zegras, Bynfield or LaFreniere caliber of player who should be able to assume that critical role in the not too distant future. In my examples Bynfield may take the longest to play as a 1C. But I still would find him as an appealing return in a deal.

I noticed McCabe is not included in your listing. I'm not sure what his health status is when the season starts. 

My preference for the first pick remains Power. I understand why others prefer a forward but I'm sticking to my preference. 

As @freesternoted there is a good chance that Samuelsson starts the season with the big club. He's a big guy who although very young is a mature player. If Risto had the same level of thoughtful play he would be an anchor player for us. 

As you noted the goaltending situation right now is vacant. Upgrading that position will do more to instantly improve the team than any other action.   

[steveoath]

5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I noticed McCabe is not included in your listing.

I'm sure he is UFA.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, steveoath said:

I'm sure he is UFA.

Is he still rehabbing? 

[Marvin]

Just now, JohnC said:

Is he still rehabbing? 

Last I heard, he's not due back until December.

[thewookie1]

3 hours ago, freester said:

Here is where we disagree:

I think Samuelson makes the team immediately.
The 1st pick should be Power regardless of our needs.

I don’t think any of the top draftees will play as rookies in the NHL.  

We’re losing Asplund in expansion draft and not Miller. 

I’d give Seattle a 5th to take Miller

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, freester said:

Here is where we disagree:

I think Samuelson makes the team immediately.
The 1st pick should be Power regardless of our needs.

I don’t think any of the top draftees will play as rookies in the NHL.  

We’re losing Asplund in expansion draft and not Miller. 

[Der Jaeger]

I’d take Beniers first, regardless of need.  Teams win Cups with players like Beniers.

[Hoss]

16 minutes ago, Der Jaeger said:

I’d take Beniers first, regardless of need.  Teams win Cups with players like Beniers.

Teams win cups with a lot of different players. Like Power.

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Teams win cups with a lot of different players. Like Power.

Name one defenseman to ever win a Stanley cup. You can't 

[freester]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Name one defenseman to ever win a Stanley cup. You can't 

????