Roster Off-Season Gameplan

[Radar]

Off season roster game plan? First move get someone in here that has run a hockey franchise!!!!! Our absent owners seem clueless egos that act like this is a hobby but are better hockey fans than owners. Short of them selling they bring in with full authority a Hockey President/CEO or we're going to continue this sh.t show. After that move let's talk rosters.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Jack vs the Knife.  I'm curious about how dangerous the surgery is and what the recovery period is.  I also am not sure what kind of leverage the team has over a player to keep him from doing what is best for his health.  

I can understand that Jack and the team might want to have delayed the surgery if he couldn't make it worse during the season, but once he was out, way delay the surgery?  This controversy is missing some details.

That said Jack is under contract and it isn't playing for anyone else unless the team agrees.  He can holdout, I guess, but what did that do for Peca?  His only leverage is the NMC that kicks in after next season. Like Sam, that gives him a chance to heel and see the direction of the club and gives the Sabres time to evaluate offers and the team's progress as well.

Obviously everyone would be happier with a resolution sooner than later, but because of the how this season went, the resolution probably has to wait.

I was against moving both Sam and Jack, but looking at the Oilers who moved on from Hall (No. 1 overall in 2010) and Yakupov (No.1 2012) when that first attempted rebuild failed.  However they kept their version of Sam, Ryan Nugent Hopkins (No. 1 2011).

My thought here is with the move of Sam to center, the development of Mitts and Cozens, we could actually trade Jack like Edm traded Hall and possibly improve the club long-term.  Adding someone like Berniers in the draft will also help.  As I've said before Sam showed more leadership in the second half of this season on the ice then Jack has ever shown.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[GASabresIUFAN]

50 minutes ago, Radar said:

Off season roster game plan? First move get someone in here that has run a hockey franchise!!!!! Our absent owners seem clueless egos that act like this is a hobby but are better hockey fans than owners. Short of them selling they bring in with full authority a Hockey President/CEO or we're going to continue this sh.t show. After that move let's talk rosters.

That's a topic for another thread and I agree in general.  Karmanos was the first piece of that puzzle.  Choosing a coach obviously influences the roster decisions and we need more scouts and scouting.  Getting someone like Davidson or Rutherford as President or advisor to KA will also help.  

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Jack vs the Knife.  I'm curious about how dangerous the surgery is and what the recovery period is.  I also am not sure what kind of leverage the team has over a player to keep him from doing what is best for his health.  

I can understand that Jack and the team might want to have delayed the surgery if he couldn't make it worse during the season, but once he was out, way delay the surgery?  This controversy is missing some details.

That said Jack is under contract and it isn't playing for anyone else unless the team agrees.  He can holdout, I guess, but what did that do for Peca?  His only leverage is the NMC that kicks in after next season. Like Sam, that gives him a chance to heel and see the direction of the club and gives the Sabres time to evaluate offers and the team's progress as well.

Obviously everyone would be happier with a resolution sooner than later, but because of the how this season went, the resolution probably has to wait.

I was against moving both Sam and Jack, but looking at the Oilers who moved on from Hall (No. 1 overall in 2010) and Yakupov (No.1 2012) when that first attempted rebuild failed.  However they kept their version of Sam, Ryan Nugent Hopkins (No. 1 2011).

My thought here is with the move of Sam to center, the development of Mitts and Cozens, we could actually trade Jack like Edm traded Hall and possibly improve the club long-term.  Adding someone like Berniers in the draft will also help.  As I've said before Sam showed more leadership in the second half of this season on the ice then Jack has ever shown.  

How? By playing well for 25 games? Jack’s done that, to a more significant degree than Sam. 

The Oilers got better after moving Hall because they drafted one of the greatest players of all time, and the guy behind him in scoring.  Correlation does not equal causation. 

It’ll be tough to replicate 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Thorny

[Gatorman0519]

Maybe Karmanos, being the first real "adult" in the room in a long time, will make sure Adams does not get completely ripped off in the upcoming trades. 

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Again it depends.  If the team is good he'll re-sign again to be a corner stone of a winning team.  If not you an always trade him at the deadline.  We'll probably get more this summer, but if he has a blow out year at center then his value could skyrocket.  

I maybe wrong about this but Sam could go (or be forced) to arbitration. If Sam asks for arbitration then the Sabres can ask for a one or two year deal.  If the team forces arbitration, then Sam can elect a one or two year deal.  If they aren't close to a deal, I can see Sam asking for arbitration based on his goal scoring this season and the Sabres can then ask for a two year contract.  This would give the Sabres more breathing room to discuss trades during the off-season or at the deadline and also give Sam more breathing room to determine the direction of the club.   

Its going to be an interesting summer.

No, teams can only select 2 year arbitration deals when the player is at least 2 years from becoming an UFA.

If his deal goes to arbitration, & that is a very likely scenario, it WILL be for a 1 year deal.

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Jack vs the Knife.  I'm curious about how dangerous the surgery is and what the recovery period is.  I also am not sure what kind of leverage the team has over a player to keep him from doing what is best for his health.  

I can understand that Jack and the team might want to have delayed the surgery if he couldn't make it worse during the season, but once he was out, way delay the surgery?  This controversy is missing some details.

That said Jack is under contract and it isn't playing for anyone else unless the team agrees.  He can holdout, I guess, but what did that do for Peca?  His only leverage is the NMC that kicks in after next season. Like Sam, that gives him a chance to heel and see the direction of the club and gives the Sabres time to evaluate offers and the team's progress as well.

Obviously everyone would be happier with a resolution sooner than later, but because of the how this season went, the resolution probably has to wait.

I was against moving both Sam and Jack, but looking at the Oilers who moved on from Hall (No. 1 overall in 2010) and Yakupov (No.1 2012) when that first attempted rebuild failed.  However they kept their version of Sam, Ryan Nugent Hopkins (No. 1 2011).

My thought here is with the move of Sam to center, the development of Mitts and Cozens, we could actually trade Jack like Edm traded Hall and possibly improve the club long-term.  Adding someone like Berniers in the draft will also help.  As I've said before Sam showed more leadership in the second half of this season on the ice then Jack has ever shown.  

The leverage is, short of the resolution of a grievance, the team's medical opinion provider's opinion overrides that of a player selected 2nd medical opinion and that of an independent 3rd medical opinion.

Not a medical professional, so take this for whatever it's worth, it seems that Eichel wants the surgery because the recovery period will be shorter & he'll be able to train on close to his planned off-season schedule & thus would be back to true game shape by the start of the season.  If he waits for the disk to heal, it will take longer & he doesn't know that he'll be ready to hit the ice flying (& leading) without the surgery.

The team seems to want the more conservative approach.  

Being a fan of a team that's missed the playoffs for a decade, would prefer he get the surgery & be ready to go on day 1.  As this also reduces the possibility of teams wanting to trade for him this off-season, it keeps him here which is another win.

If Eichel is back, it makes more sense to keep Reinhart, too.  Another win.

Get Gallant to coach them.  And get Davidson in house to be the guy Gere is ticking off, rather than ownership, and they are fixed goaltending & a coup,e of smaller pieces away from breaking a 10 year drought.

And the only way Gallant comes in is if ownership is insulated from him.   He's a player's coach, but wears out his welcome to the point of Florida not even being willing to get him back home after getting canned on a road trip.

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

No, teams can only select 2 year arbitration deals when the player is at least 2 years from becoming an UFA.

If his deal goes to arbitration, & that is a very likely scenario, it WILL be for a 1 year deal.

Can you give a link.  I couldn't find that part of the rule.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Can you give a link.  I couldn't find that part of the rule.

12.9.c.

(Sorry, have the CBA downloaded, not looking for a link to it.)

[Marvin]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The leverage is, short of the resolution of a grievance, the team's medical opinion provider's opinion overrides that of a player selected 2nd medical opinion and that of an independent 3rd medical opinion.

Not a medical professional, so take this for whatever it's worth, it seems that Eichel wants the surgery because the recovery period will be shorter & he'll be able to train on close to his planned off-season schedule & thus would be back to true game shape by the start of the season.  If he waits for the disk to heal, it will take longer & he doesn't know that he'll be ready to hit the ice flying (& leading) without the surgery.

The team seems to want the more conservative approach.  

Being a fan of a team that's missed the playoffs for a decade, would prefer he get the surgery & be ready to go on day 1.  As this also reduces the possibility of teams wanting to trade for him this off-season, it keeps him here which is another win.

...

Is there anything in the SPC about the liability of the Sabres if the surgery goes awry, particularly if the team's doctors object?  That would be a huge legal deterrent for the Sabres that can not be ignored.

I agree with the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs wholeheartedly.  That scenario makes the most sense.

I am not a fan of violating best practises.  Unless something from other countries shows that this works on high-aerobic athletes whose necks get turned a lot, I would be very reluctant of acting quickly.

[Hoss]

A thought that I’m not all that passionate about because I partially don’t care enough and because he’s not THAT good that I’m scrambling to retain him:

What if this team commits to dealing Eichel and goes to Samson and tells him if he signs long-term he’s the captain of this team moving forward?

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Is there anything in the SPC about the liability of the Sabres if the surgery goes awry, particularly if the team's doctors object?  That would be a huge legal deterrent for the Sabres that can not be ignored.

I agree with the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs wholeheartedly.  That scenario makes the most sense.

I am not a fan of violating best practises.  Unless something from other countries shows that this works on high-aerobic athletes whose necks get turned a lot, I would be very reluctant of acting quickly.

There is an entire (though fairly short) section of the CBA dealing with insurance.  Haven't read it but expect that is where your answer lies.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

A thought that I’m not all that passionate about because I partially don’t care enough and because he’s not THAT good that I’m scrambling to retain him:

What if this team commits to dealing Eichel and goes to Samson and tells him if he signs long-term he’s the captain of this team moving forward?

Right now, really doubt that being named the captain would move the needle 1 bit for Reinhart.

IMHO, the way to get him locked up LT is sign him to a fair 1 year deal & bring in a coach that can get them to win & 2 UFA goalies each as good as a healthy Ullmark, 1 of which is Ullmark, and work out the differences with Eichel.

Doubt they could get him signed LT THIS off-season after 2 seasons that included a mirage of respectability & this one which included likely, & at minimum arguably, the the most depressing stretch of Sabres hockey ever.

[Hoss]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Right now, really doubt that being named the captain would move the needle 1 bit for Reinhart.

IMHO, the way to get him locked up LT is sign him to a fair 1 year deal & bring in a coach that can get them to win & 2 UFA goalies each as good as a healthy Ullmark, 1 of which is Ullmark, and work out the differences with Eichel.

Doubt they could get him signed LT THIS off-season after 2 seasons that included a mirage of respectability & this one which included likely, & at minimum arguably, the the most depressing stretch of Sabres hockey ever.

There is no ***** way this franchise should sign Samson to a one-year deal. They shouldn’t consider anything less than four years and if it’s something he pushes for you stop negotiations and trade him.

[Gabrielor]

This will be unliked, and criticized, but there is a path where Adams says 'f*** it', keeps Eichel AND Reinhart.

Skinner Eichel Bjork
Olofsson Reinhart Cozens
Asplund Mittelstadt Thompson
Girgensons Boyd Ruotsalainen
Dahlin Jokiharju
Nemeth Borgen
Sameulsson Miller
Fleury
Luukkonen
Okposo Sheahan Bryson

Send Risto to Seattle
Deal for Fleury
UFA to a defensive center (Travis Boyd) and a bot-4 LD (Patrick Nemeth)

High risk, and could come with losing some trades later, but in the short term, you chase for the playoffs with Mitts, Dahlin, Joki, Cozens, and try to give them that experience, with unquestionably the best center spine we've had since 2007.

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, Hoss said:

There is no ***** way this franchise should sign Samson to a one-year deal. They shouldn’t consider anything less than four years and if it’s something he pushes for you stop negotiations and trade him.

That's where my thoughts were prior to yesterday.  Opinion is evolving based on the emotion of the past day.  Probably won't have a fully settled in opinion until next week.  Might move back to it.  Don't know.

Preference is still to get him signed LT, but not sure how realistic that is. 

Also, do believe that HIS opinion as to staying could get turned 180 degrees by January.  Right now, would likely take that chance.  Next week, who knows?

[Hoss]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

That's where my thoughts were prior to yesterday.  Opinion is evolving based on the emotion of the past day.  Probably won't have a fully settled in opinion until next week.  Might move back to it.  Don't know.

Preference is still to get him signed LT, but not sure how realistic that is. 

Also, do believe that HIS opinion as to staying could get turned 180 degrees by January.  Right now, would likely take that chance.  Next week, who knows?

This team can’t afford to take chances. You sign him to a one-year deal and the best-case scenario is you have to negotiate all over again but this time in the middle of the season (can’t afford to wait until the offseason at that point). Worst-case? Well, you lose him for absolutely nothing which must be avoided at all costs. Most likely? You have to trade him at the deadline when values fluctuate a lot and generally don’t match offseason deals because of the pure rental market.

[North Buffalo]

Gonna be a long tough offseason... have some hope and despite Sabres best efforts team has been acquiring talent.  Based on what I have seen and heard... though I dont like it... I could see Sabres Trading Jack for young high end players and picks and it may be for the best.  As far as coaching... Coach meatballs seems to be good connecting with developing young guys... Not sure about Risto... Id keep him but as younger guys develop lessen his ice time...  Man the Sabres need goaltending should be No 1 offseason priority.  Ps Keep Sam

Edited May 11, 2021 by North Buffalo

[Huckleberry]

1. Zegras + Ducks 2021+ john gibson 1st  for jack eichel -
ducks not really happy about gibson I read on some boards and we need to take cap back + might solve our goalie issue.

2.Byfield + Turcotte + 2021 1st + madden ( if they want us to take a cap player back)  for jack eichel - The cap coming back would be brown or Quick 

3. Ristolainen to Seatle for 2022 1st.

4 Samson to vancouver for Nate schmidt and 2021 2nd rounder.

[jad1]

36 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

1. Zegras + Ducks 2021+ john gibson 1st  for jack eichel -
ducks not really happy about gibson I read on some boards and we need to take cap back + might solve our goalie issue.

2.Byfield + Turcotte + 2021 1st + madden ( if they want us to take a cap player back)  for jack eichel - The cap coming back would be brown or Quick 

3. Ristolainen to Seatle for 2022 1st.

4 Samson to vancouver for Nate schmidt and 2021 2nd rounder.

So the Sabres trade away roughly 170 points for basically nothing next season.

Sounds like classic Sabre trades.

Edited May 11, 2021 by jad1

[Curt]

1 hour ago, jad1 said:

So the Sabres trade away roughly 170 points for basically nothing next season.

Sounds like classic Sabre trades.

It’s fine if you don’t want to trade Eichel/Reinhart/Risto, but even next year Schmidt, Brown, Gibson, Zegras and maybe Byfield are good NHL players.  Certainly not “basically nothing”.

[Crusader1969]

2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

1. Zegras + Ducks 2021+ john gibson 1st  for jack eichel -
ducks not really happy about gibson I read on some boards and we need to take cap back + might solve our goalie issue.

2.Byfield + Turcotte + 2021 1st + madden ( if they want us to take a cap player back)  for jack eichel - The cap coming back would be brown or Quick 

3. Ristolainen to Seatle for 2022 1st.

4 Samson to vancouver for Nate schmidt and 2021 2nd rounder.

Brown has a NMC. Doubt he waves it and I can’t imagine getting both Byfield and Turcotte.   
it you can get either Byfield or Turcotte (preferably QB) and a 2021 first, a middle of the pack prospect like Kalyiev, along with a roster player, I think they’ve done ok   I could see them wanting to move Quick  

Schmidt is a LHD, the Sabres deepest position 

Risto for a 1st is enticing but I’m thinking a expansion team may want to hold onto their 1st rounders  

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Crusader1969

[Hoss]

3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

1. Zegras + Ducks 2021+ john gibson 1st  for jack eichel -
ducks not really happy about gibson I read on some boards and we need to take cap back + might solve our goalie issue.

2.Byfield + Turcotte + 2021 1st + madden ( if they want us to take a cap player back)  for jack eichel - The cap coming back would be brown or Quick 

3. Ristolainen to Seatle for 2022 1st.

4 Samson to vancouver for Nate schmidt and 2021 2nd rounder.

1. Gibson's contract is a nightmare and you'd have to pray to the heavens he bounces back.

2. I don't feel confident you're getting Byfield AND Turcotte, let alone both AND their high pick this year.

3. Seattle isn't trading their 2022 1st for just about anything, let alone Rasmus Ristolainen.

4. Ew. I like Schmidt but he's on a big contract and that's not good value at all.

[Crusader1969]

23 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Brown has a NMC. Doubt he waves it and I can’t imagine getting both Byfield and Turcotte.   
it you can get either Byfield or Turcotte (preferably QB) and a 2021 first, a middle of the pack prospect like Kalyiev, along with a roster player, I think they’ve done ok   I could see them wanting to move Quick  

Schmidt is a LHD, the Sabres deepest position 

Risto for a 1st is enticing but I’m thinking a expansion team may want to hold onto their 1st rounders  

 

 

Edit that.  Akil Thomas not Kayliev 

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, Hoss said:

1. Gibson's contract is a nightmare and you'd have to pray to the heavens he bounces back.

2. I don't feel confident you're getting Byfield AND Turcotte, let alone both AND their high pick this year.

3. Seattle isn't trading their 2022 1st for just about anything, let alone Rasmus Ristolainen.

4. Ew. I like Schmidt but he's on a big contract and that's not good value at all.

I wouldn't call Gibson's contract a nightmare if he's giving you the top 10 goaltending he's capable of — $6.4 million until he's 33.

It is a gamble though.

More food for thought is that he has no-trade that kicks in July 1. If they are having second thoughts there, it's gotta be now. As I said elsewhere, whispers are that the sabres have kicked his tires and they love them their USAHockey guys.

I only do it if Zegras is included though. We might have to send UPL back.