GDT Buffalo at Boston 4/29/21 7pm MSG, WGR550?

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He's spent the past month playing on the first line with Sam Reinhart, who is good and recently has been on fire. Jeff has scored 3 goals in 17 games.

I think that if a player can only rise above JAG status if he is nailed to the hip of one of the best players in the world, he's still a JAG.

Here's an interesting frame of reference: Casey Mittelstadt put up 17 goals and 22 assists in his first 114 NHL games and was sent to the minors. Jeff has 24 goals and 17 assists in his past 126 games.

Also I don’t understand why you leave out the numbers that don’t fit the argument - you talked of Skinner’s production in that month and left out 63% of the points he’s produced during that time. 

[Thorner]

All this talk of pace and attempts to extrapolate a small sample size. Yet Skinner playing at a 39 point pace that month matters not?

Yes, it’s an “L” relative to his contract, I get it. But *surely* 39 points, second line production, is a far cry from JAG?

My mistake, he’s actually playing at a 41 point pace in that stretch. If what we are seeing from this kids is “hopeful” and “real”, we need to extend that courtesy to the veteran who has a proven past. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

But Mittelstadt was getting caved defensively and Skinner is not. This discussion can’t be framed purely from the perspective of points. It leaves out far too much of the equation.  

From all accounts Skinner seemed to mesh *particularly* well with Jack so playing him with Sam doesn’t eliminate that variable for me. 

Jeff is a goal scorer, no? How many assists does Sam have on his line? 

I don't know how anyone can imply Skinner's defence is making up for his lack of offence with a straight face.

 

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Also I don’t understand why you leave out the numbers that don’t fit the argument - you talked of Skinner’s production in that month and left out 63% of the points he’s produced during that time. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

All this talk of pace and attempts to extrapolate a small sample size. Yet Skinner playing at a 39 point pace that month matters not?

Yes, it’s an “L” relative to his contract, I get it. But *surely* 39 points, second line production, is a far cry from JAG?

When 8 points in 17 games on the first line is the high point of a 126-game stretch? When the offence that he creates is so infrequent?

His assist last night amounted to him being bumped off the puck and Olofsson beating the Bruin to it.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don't know how anyone can imply Skinner's defence is making up for his lack of offence with a straight face.

 

 

 

When 8 points in 17 games on the first line is the high point of a 126-game stretch? When the offence that he creates is so infrequent?

His assist last night amounted to him being bumped off the puck and Olofsson beating the Bruin to it.

8 points in 16 games. 

Now we are going to parse the way he got one of the assists? Are we doing that with all the other players? 

I’m sorry but this is getting a bit ridiculous. You are the one who selected the term JAG. Maybe you should select a different qualifier cause a 41 point pace in the last month (a month, again, you and others are putting a lot of stock in - which is fine, but it needs to be consistent) is certifiably not “JAG”. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorner]

The sample size either counts, or it doesn’t. If it’s proof Sam can be centre, despite zero positive documented NHL results before said stretch, it counts for Skinner. With his mix of poor results and great results in the period that preceded. I do not believe in selecting that arbitrary cut off you did, particularly when the entire period you selected was WITH Krueger

Especially when, after Krueger, his production has seen a spike 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don't know how anyone can imply Skinner's defence is making up for his lack of offence with a straight face.

 

 

 

When 8 points in 17 games on the first line is the high point of a 126-game stretch? When the offence that he creates is so infrequent?

His assist last night amounted to him being bumped off the puck and Olofsson beating the Bruin to it.

Reinhart’s assist on Thompson’s last second goal was him getting pinned on the boards and someone grabbing the puck 

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

8 points in 16 games. 

Now we are going to parse the way he got one of the assists? 

I’m sorry but this is getting a bit ridiculous. You are the one who selected the term JAG. Maybe you should select a different qualifier cause a 41 point pace in the last month (a month, again, you and others are putting a lot of stock in - which is fine, but it needs to be consistent) is certifiably not “JAG”. 

I think it is a bit ridiculous that someone could be arguing that a player who hasn't even been a 30-point player over the past 2.5 seasons, doesn't play special teams, and is regularly hidden from tough defensive situations is more than just a guy.

He used to be, but we have not seen that player in a long time.

[nfreeman]

Boys, please.  We all have our semi-irrational likes and dislikes. 

For example, Derek Roy is one of my all-time least favorite Sabres.  It occurred to me last night that Mitts could develop into a similar player -- skilled, productive and a very nice piece to center a 3rd scoring line as Roy did with Max and Vanek.  You don't want to count on him as one of your top 2 centers, or count on him in the playoffs, but to be able to ice a high-scoring line like that, as a 3rd line, against lesser defenders is a real advantage.

FWIW, I agree with @Thorny that I'd like to see Skinner reunited with a healthy Eichel next year and wouldn't be a-tall surprised if doing so helped Skinner find his mojo again.  But I also agree with @dudacek that Skinner's poor production over the last couple of seasons is primarily Skinner's fault.

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think R2 is a jag. He does a lot of little things right. 

I don't think he's a jag either, but Caggiula is and Bjork might be.  But are they worth keeping over, say, Rieder and Eakin?  That's the kind of stuff we need to find out in the next... what? 5? games.

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Hopefully it puts to rest the idea of trading Jack Eichel. 

Quite the opposite imo. 

[FogBat]

On 4/29/2021 at 10:25 PM, nfreeman said:

Good to see ya!  Don't be a stranger.

Sorry for my absence. Been working my tail off. I'm trying to stay on top of things. Hopefully, I'll be here more often.

[LGR4GM]

20 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Quite the opposite imo. 

The team can't score. Yet your idea is to remove it's highest producing player. That makes 0 sense without an insane trade. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The team can't score. Yet your idea is to remove it's highest producing player. That makes 0 sense without an insane trade. 

It's more complicated than just that. 

But in the simplest short terms (it will be discussed again post season I am sure) I simply do not think psychologically or in terms of team building and team chemistry it is a good idea at this point to go back to making this team all about Eichel.  Is Jack happy? Does Jack want to be here? What's wrong with Jack? etc etc etc ad infinitum. I do not think it would be good for truly trying to turn this thing around.

Not trading Eichel only works if, and it's a huge if, there is instant success next year, and I'd suggest that is very very unlikely. 

[Buffalonill]

For the people that want to trade Jack eichel .

 

 Don't complain once when we're in the shane wright lottery because that's where will be

[Marvin]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's more complicated than just that. 

But in the simplest short terms (it will be discussed again post season I am sure) I simply do not think psychologically or in terms of team building and team chemistry it is a good idea at this point to go back to making this team all about Eichel.  Is Jack happy? Does Jack want to be here? What's wrong with Jack? etc etc etc ad infinitum. I do not think it would be good for truly trying to turn this thing around.

Not trading Eichel only works if, and it's a huge if, there is instant success next year, and I'd suggest that is very very unlikely. 

Let us turn this around.  Construct a plausible trade with another team which you would accept and a majority of posters here would find acceptable.  I trust the overall evaluation of the fairness of a potential trade here.  Your limitations are:

1. Use the threads on other hockey boards as examples of your trade's expected return.

2. You are not to exceed the best offer on all the boards which is acceptable to a majority of fans of your trade partner on those boards.

3. A majority of Sabres fans who have access to that board think the trade is acceptable.

Good luck.

Until you and others do this and give me multiple possibilities, I can not take anyone's desire to just trade Eichel willy-nilly seriously because we could be staring at 15 years of a rebuild when everyone else wants out.

[PerreaultForever]

10 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Let us turn this around.  Construct a plausible trade with another team which you would accept and a majority of posters here would find acceptable.  I trust the overall evaluation of the fairness of a potential trade here.  Your limitations are:

1. Use the threads on other hockey boards as examples of your trade's expected return.

2. You are not to exceed the best offer on all the boards which is acceptable to a majority of fans of your trade partner on those boards.

3. A majority of Sabres fans who have access to that board think the trade is acceptable.

Good luck.

Until you and others do this and give me multiple possibilities, I can not take anyone's desire to just trade Eichel willy-nilly seriously because we could be staring at 15 years of a rebuild when everyone else wants out.

You ask this knowing it's impossible. There will never be full agreement for a variety of reasons. Too many age differences, hockey knowledge differences, ideological views, fan loyalty blindness, hero worshippers, etc etc you can go on and on. And that doesn't even include having to argue with analytics above all else people!

I'm trading Eichel for Byfield Turcotte and whatever draft picks you need to balance it and make it happen and then I'm using his money to sign some FAs and I'm going to have the start of a better team.

I'm also trading Reinhart and Risto.

and if he won't leave, I'm having Skinner clean toilets and carry equipment bags instead of playing cause I'm sick of this bs hockey team and their slacker loser ways.

Happy?

[Zamboni]

Completely unrealistic 😂

[Marvin]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You ask this knowing it's impossible. There will never be full agreement for a variety of reasons. Too many age differences, hockey knowledge differences, ideological views, fan loyalty blindness, hero worshippers, etc etc you can go on and on. And that doesn't even include having to argue with analytics above all else people!

I'm trading Eichel for Byfield Turcotte and whatever draft picks you need to balance it and make it happen and then I'm using his money to sign some FAs and I'm going to have the start of a better team.

I'm also trading Reinhart and Risto.

and if he won't leave, I'm having Skinner clean toilets and carry equipment bags instead of playing cause I'm sick of this bs hockey team and their slacker loser ways.

Happy?

Sure you can.  They did not have to *like* the trade; they just have to view is as acceptable.  I didn't ask the impossible.  I have seen a few proposals for Eichel and for Reinhart which had grudging acceptance from a majority on both sides.  There were even a couple which I actually liked.  I am asking you to find them and bring them here in another thread for evaluation.

BTW, there is no way are you getting Byfield AND Turcotte without taking a long-term, crippling cap-dump and sending something juicy with Eichel.  Their window isn't now.  And that is one hint: what team can use these guys *now* to become a legitimate contender AND has NHLers or NHL-ready players whom we might like?  Another hint is to ask what team is like the Sabres where we could make a Hawerchuk or LaFontaine trade to shake up the cores?

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Sure you can.  They did not have to *like* the trade; they just have to view is as acceptable.  I didn't ask the impossible.  I have seen a few proposals for Eichel and for Reinhart which had grudging acceptance from a majority on both sides.  There were even a couple which I actually liked.  I am asking you to find them and bring them here in another thread for evaluation.

BTW, there is no way are you getting Byfield AND Turcotte without taking a long-term, crippling cap-dump and sending something juicy with Eichel.  Their window isn't now.  And that is one hint: what team can use these guys *now* to become a legitimate contender AND has NHLers or NHL-ready players whom we might like?  Another hint is to ask what team is like the Sabres where we could make a Hawerchuk or LaFontaine trade to shake up the cores?

The Calgary Flames is certainly the first that comes to mind.

Flyers?

Edited May 2, 2021 by dudacek

[PerreaultForever]

56 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

BTW, there is no way are you getting Byfield AND Turcotte without taking a long-term, crippling cap-dump and sending something juicy with Eichel.  

If you can't get Byfield and Turcotte for Eichel, then Eichel isn't that good and it doesn't matter. 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

If you can't get Byfield and Turcotte for Eichel, then Eichel isn't that good and it doesn't matter. 

No.  It says that Byfield and Turcotte meet their needs and Eichel does not.

Why are you making this so hard?

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

No.  It says that Byfield and Turcotte meet their needs and Eichel does not.

Why are you making this so hard?

I'm not. It's simply impossible to project trades when you don't even know which teams might be seriously interested. The old offer sheet signing penalty was 4 first round picks. That's the trade but I'd be taking top notch already drafted prospects and not waiting for 4 years. The details depend on which team.

I do not believe we will get a better deal for Eichel after this off season. This is the moment. Now or never or worse with him in control and a NMC and a Taylor Hall return. I simply do not believe we can build a winner following this superstar focused model we've been following so far. Insanity is doing the same thing and hoping for a different result. I think it's time to do something different.