Forwards 2021-22

[rakish]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Think Marcus but capable of 30 goals and 30 assists.

If you look at Marcus' numbers the last 2 years, he's become a very good scorer, while playing on a defensive line, with nobody that plays on the power play.  Marcus has become Mike.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I didn’t say I wanted an aging vet on a bad contract, what a straw man. 

My point is that “top 9” and “mid 6” sully the conversion. We need 4 TOP 6 wingers. Obviously Skinner (at least to me - people that don’t like how he’s played aren’t barking up that tree during this current convo) and Reinhart are top 6 wings (another straw man), but the other 2 players we’d be expecting to fill top 6 wing roles would be coming from a pool of unproven players.

- - - 

I’m sorry, but you’ve made threads calling for the head of KA, it’s not fair for you to use the word “complaining” re my posts when I’m merely stating that caution is warranted, and a desire to not only make playoffs *likely* rather than a maybe.  

I suppose I was “complaining” last offseason too when everyone was predicting playoffs. I tend to be more moderate on these things, but you are free to swing like a pendulum. Normally I wouldn’t take a shot like that but “complaining” sets me off 

Complaining may not be the right word, but you are looking for guarantees where there aren't any.  Who would have predicted that we'd only get 4 goals for the season from Eichel and Hall or that Mitts and Asplund would be playing at a 40 pt pace? The Sabres warrant a great deal of skepticism and I have been one of the most negative about this team this season. I've also been calling for a youth movement since camp and now that's it's here and working, I'm thrilled and want to see where it leads before blocking some of these kids from reaching their potential.  

[Crusader1969]

For $hits and Giggles

Skinner    Eichel     Girgs 
Bjork        Samson  VO
Asplund   Mitts       Tage
R2            Cozens    Okposo

Roll 4 lines each night, if one line isn't going, you lean on the other 3.  

Stay out of the UFA market for anything except 13th Forward and 7th Dman and goalie   (unless they are your own UFA- McCabe and Linus)

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

For $hits and Giggles

Skinner    Eichel     Girgs 
Bjork        Samson  VO
Asplund   Mitts       Tage
R2            Cozens    Okposo

Roll 4 lines each night, if one line isn't going, you lean on the other 3.  

Stay out of the UFA market for anything except 13th Forward and 7th Dman and goalie   (unless they are your own UFA- McCabe and Linus)

See I look at that a month ago and I'm vomiting in my coffee.

This morning it doesn't look bad at all. Donnie Meatballs, stop messing with my mind!

[Randall Flagg]

At this point, it's become humorous that 98% of all lineups for next year posted on this forum contain zero offseason moves that bring in players from outside the organization. And only 1 or 2 bring in players that aren't being viewed as bottom 6 filler types. 

That doesn't even happen with good teams! 

We are in last place, and even the good hockey we are playing now comes with a lot of qualifiers and would only be seen as an "average" or "typical" stretch of hockey results by a decent team

I love the development of the youth, but ensuring a good NHL team that can make the playoffs in 2021-22 should not be viewed as possible without an influx of some amount of hockey players from outside the organization 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Randall Flagg

[Brawndo]

The UFA Forwards the Sabres should look at are Brandon Saad, Barclay Goodrow, Blake Coleman, and Casey Cizikas. 

Although Tampa probably gets the middle two to re sign for league minimum/s 

[Crusader1969]

14 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

At this point, it's become humorous that 98% of all lineups for next year posted on this forum contain zero offseason moves that bring in players from outside the organization. And only 1 or 2 bring in players that aren't being viewed as bottom 6 filler types. 

That doesn't even happen with good teams! 

We are in last place, and even the good hockey we are playing now comes with a lot of qualifiers and would only be seen as an "average" or "typical" stretch of hockey results by a decent team

I love the development of the youth, but ensuring a good NHL team that can make the playoffs in 2021-22 should not be viewed as possible without an influx of some amount of hockey players from outside the organization 

Yes, cause brining UFA's from other teams has worked so well for them.

I hear Taylor Hall will be available.

Stick with what's working, why mess with it?

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Crusader1969

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, Crusader1969 said:

Yes, cause brining UFA's from other teams has worked so well for them. Stick with what's working, why mess with it?

Did you know that you can acquire players that aren't ufas during the offseason? 

And why do bad GM decisions of the past preclude a team from being able to make smart UFA choices now? I'm sure the Islanders regret Eberle and their past few goalie acquisitions, I'm sure the hawks regretted Hossa, the Rangers Panarin, the Bruins Chara, the Pens Gonchar, the Stars Radulov, the Caps Niskanen, the Stars Pavelski etc. etc.

[Brawndo]

3 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Yes, cause brining UFA's from other teams has worked so well for them.

I hear Taylor Hall will be available.

Stick with what's working, why mess with it?

 

 

With smarter management and a better analytics department, Hello Jason Karmanos, the right UFAs can be brought in and put in position to succeed. 
 

Did anyone predict that Hall shooting percentage would be 80% below His Career Average? 

[NCBufFan]

13 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Yes, cause brining UFA's from other teams has worked so well for them.

I hear Taylor Hall will be available.

Stick with what's working, why mess with it?

 

 

I don't understand when people only work in absolutes. You make it seem like we should never sign a free agent again because they don't always work out. Maybe a long term deal on a big Ufa is a bad move, but we haven't done that since Okposo. We have assumed young players were ready to make the jump and had it explode spectacularly in our faces consistently too. There should be a middle ground here to explore a proven Top 6 option (not top of the market) but also roll the lines out more evenly ice time wise to keep the kids playing. 

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The UFA Forwards the Sabres should look at are Brandon Saad, Barclay Goodrow, Blake Coleman, and Casey Cizikas. 

Although Tampa probably gets the middle two to re sign for league minimum/s 

This man gets it.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I love the development of the youth, but ensuring a good NHL team that can make the playoffs in 2021-22 should not be viewed as possible without an influx of some amount of hockey players from outside the organization 

Counterpoints:  Staal, Hall. 

I really do see your point, but the mindset driving the "sit tight" attitude is that for the first time in a while, the Sabres are improving game-on-game.  No one wants to mess that up.  For the first time in a while we became a much better team at the deadline.  Bjork looks to have upside over Lazar, the spring callups are excelling, the team as a whole is playing on the same page for the first time in forever.  A lot of people, I think, feel like the Sabres have made radical changes just now and it's working, so why reinvent the team in the offseason?

I'm not sure I agree and I suspect KA will try to further improve things, but a case can be made for sitting tight.

[Randall Flagg]

9 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Counterpoints:  Staal, Hall. 

I really do see your point, but the mindset driving the "sit tight" attitude is that for the first time in a while, the Sabres are improving game-on-game.  No one wants to mess that up.  For the first time in a while we became a much better team at the deadline.  Bjork looks to have upside over Lazar, the spring callups are excelling, the team as a whole is playing on the same page for the first time in forever.  A lot of people, I think, feel like the Sabres have made radical changes just now and it's working, so why reinvent the team in the offseason?

I'm not sure I agree and I suspect KA will try to further improve things, but a case can be made for sitting tight.

Previous *****-ups at attempting to make your team better do not preclude the usefulness of that entire avenue of roster building haha

Or maybe it does work that way. In that case, I'll raise LA elevating a wild card team with a promising home-grown young core to a cup winner through the use of trades to negate your point and bring us back to neutral. 

But really, our best hockey with awesome youth development still has us getting shelled most nights and going 6-3-2 (a fine record, but worrisome for the best "hot streak" on the season). You can keep the Mitts line together and still make key adds to shore up weaknesses, build immunity to injury impacts, and make sure you have a team capable of winning games in October-December AND January-May

[French Collection]

2 hours ago, Brawndo said:

The UFA Forwards the Sabres should look at are Brandon Saad, Barclay Goodrow, Blake Coleman, and Casey Cizikas. 

Although Tampa probably gets the middle two to re sign for league minimum/s 

I like Goodrow, played his last year of OHL in North Bay. He captained the team on a deep playoff run.

He can play any forward position, big and fast with some grit. Perfect 4th liner who can move up the lineup. Cup winner.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Here is the problem with the simple idea of lets add a top 6 forward.  Conceptionally it's great.  Who doesn't want a proven top 6 forward?  However proven is a relative term.  KO was proven, Hall was proven, Skinner was proven etc.....  We ended up over paying each time and got 1 good year from KO and Skinner and nothing from Hall.  Any top free agent will want big $ and long-term to come here.  Which makes them almost always a bad bargain.   

So lets talk about Saad also for example.  He'll be 29 early next season and is basically a 40-45 pt guy.  His current cap hit is 6 mill (salary 6.5).  How much in $ and term are you prepared to give him.  I'd argue that he is at best a 3rd line player on the current Sabres.  Are you willing to give him 5 for 25?  Will he even take a pay cut?  This is exactly the type of contract I'm desperate to avoid.  

To acquire a top 6 forward in trade will cost us assets we don't want to part with.  Anyone want to trade Mitts or Cozens to get a proven guy on a big contract or who will be on a big contract? For example, lets say Calg could be persuaded to part with Matt Tkachuk. He is certainly the perfect candidate for the Sabres.  He has one year left at $7 mill and then is an RFA.  How much  are you willing to allocate to him? 9 mill? However what would they want for him?  Mitts, a 1st and Portillo? More?  Is this really in the best interest of the franchise?   

Edited April 20, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Here is the problem with the simple idea of lets add a top 6 forward.  Conceptionally it's great.  Who doesn't want a proven top 6 forward?  However proven is a relative term.  KO was proven, Hall was proven, Skinner was proven etc.....  We ended up over paying each time and got 1 good year from KO and Skinner and nothing from Hall.  Any top free agent will want big $ and long-term to come here.  Which makes them almost always a bad bargain.  

To acquire a top 6 forward in trade will cost us assets we don't want to part with.  Anyone want to trade Mitts or Cozens to get a proven guy on a big contract or who will be on a big contract? For example, lets say Calg could be persuaded to part with Matt Tkachuk.  He has one year left at $7 mill and then is an RFA.  He is certainly the perfect candidate for the Sabres.  However what would they want for him?  Mitts, a 1st and Portillo? More?  Is this really in the best interest of the franchise?   

What is in the best interest of the franchise is immediately putting out a team that is a safe bet to make the playoffs next year, without obviously mortgaging our entire future. 

Narrow-mindedly closing off entire mechanisms for helping us do this with instances of past failures and individual examples of possible trades isn't much of an argument. 

Just sitting on our hands to be safe strikes me as an incredibly low-probability maneuver, far riskier than "using opportunities that are always present in offseason roster-building time like all normal teams do every year" is despite your reservations. None of the lineups you guys put together that are basically tonight's lineup plus Jack look like a hockey team that will be able to sniff a playoff spot. They look like the fast-lane to Eichel's trade next June. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Randall Flagg

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

What is in the best interest of the franchise is immediately putting out a team that is a safe bet to make the playoffs next year, without obviously mortgaging our entire future. 

Narrow-mindedly closing off entire mechanisms for helping us do this with instances of past failures and individual examples of possible trades isn't much of an argument. 

Just sitting on our hands to be safe strikes me as an incredibly low-probability maneuver, far riskier than "using opportunities that are always present in offseason roster-building time like all normal teams do every year" is despite your reservations 

There is no safe bet as we have seen time and again.  On the other had, I'm betting on continued growth of young players on bargain contracts.  I'm not against filling holes in the roster with outside help such as replacing Eakin or McCabe or Ullmark if they bolt, but I'm against annual roster roulette.  Been there done that and it hasn't worked yet and it won't until we have a winning program.

A proper long-term success rebuild is built with the internal guys and then supplemented from there.  We finally have a young roster filled with our guys and people still want mythical "proven" outside help without even giving our kids a real chance.  What in TM, Jbot or KA's moves convinces you they will sign or acquire the right guy?

[Thorner]

I would use draft picks to make trades 

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I would use draft picks to make trades 

Jbot did that as well and it left us short of draft picks for the last 4 years without great results at the NHL level.   No 5 & 6 in 2017, no 3rd in 2018, no 2nd or 7th in 2019 and no 3 & 4 in 2020.  Those deals didn't really make us better.  Simmonds, Sheary, Vesey, Montour, and Miller didn't exactly make us better.  Deeper maybe, but not much better.  At Jbot seems to have made good choices with the picks he did have. 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Jbot did that as well and it left us short of draft picks for the last 4 years.   No 5 & 6 in 2017, no 3rd in 2018, no 2nd or 7th in 2019 and no 3 & 4 in 2020.  Those deals didn't really make us better easier. Sheary, Vesey, Montour, and Miller didn't exactly make us better.  Deeper maybe, but not much better.

Haven’t you been thoroughly touting Jbot’s drafts? Seems to be he didn’t trade so many picks so as to hinder his drafting ability and strategy. 

Any course of action requires skilled maneuvering from those steering the ship, so “what’s happened in the past?” isn’t much of an argument because it was the failure of the operator (GM) and not the mechanism (trades, FA) that let us down. 

KA specifically mentioned draft-picks-as-currency. No reason, with a revamped drafting team under Karmanos, we can’t work a solid draft and at the same time use some picks, maybe a medium prospect or two, and even maybe a VO, to bring in a player or two that makes us better - especially with the movement we see created from the expansion draft 

[Weave]

3 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

What is in the best interest of the franchise is immediately putting out a team that is a safe bet to make the playoffs next year, without obviously mortgaging our entire future. 

Narrow-mindedly closing off entire mechanisms for helping us do this with instances of past failures and individual examples of possible trades isn't much of an argument. 

Just sitting on our hands to be safe strikes me as an incredibly low-probability maneuver, far riskier than "using opportunities that are always present in offseason roster-building time like all normal teams do every year" is despite your reservations. None of the lineups you guys put together that are basically tonight's lineup plus Jack look like a hockey team that will be able to sniff a playoff spot. They look like the fast-lane to Eichel's trade next June. 

the problem with sitting on this roster more or less as is is the same problem The Tank had.  There are too many if this, if this, if this that have to all line up properly for success to happen.  The correct move is to trade in some of those if this for some higher probability players (ie. proven).

AAAAAANNNNDDD.... we really do need an influx of a few things this roster doesn't have.

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 hours ago, Brawndo said:

With smarter management and a better analytics department, Hello Jason Karmanos, the right UFAs can be brought in and put in position to succeed. 
 

Did anyone predict that Hall shooting percentage would be 80% below His Career Average? 

No but it had been trending down consistently since his Oiler days except his puck luck MVP year.  

1st 4 years in Edm 11.5%, last 2 years in Edm 9%, MVP year 14% in NJ, NJ average outside the MVP year 7.6,  1/2 season in AZ 8.1 and then Buffalo 2.3.  Not exactly a great shooter.

Just for reference: Sid's career is 14.5%, Ovie is 12.8%

[Weave]

The game last night is a pretty good example as to why the Sabres should NOT stand pat with this roster of forwards.  This lineup needs more of an upgrade than what an offseason of development will provide.  It’s good that so many of the kids are showing development, but most of those kids are not the answer if the goal is to catch and overtake Boston.  There are limitations of our forwards skillsets and demeanor. We have alot of the same kind of player in our kids.  Management needs to target those missing traits and move a couple of kids to obtain the missing traits.

Yes I know some of the kids that we move will blossom.  So what.  Thats what happens with hockey trades.  Good players do well elsewhere and the good players we bring in will improve our team here.

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, Weave said:

The game last night is a pretty good example as to why the Sabres should NOT stand pat with this roster of forwards.  This lineup needs more of an upgrade than what an offseason of development will provide.  It’s good that so many of the kids are showing development, but most of those kids are not the answer if the goal is to catch and overtake Boston.  There are limitations of our forwards skillsets and demeanor. We have alot of the same kind of player in our kids.  Management needs to target those missing traits and move a couple of kids to obtain the missing traits.

Yes I know some of the kids that we move will blossom.  So what.  Thats what happens with hockey trades.  Good players do well elsewhere and the good players we bring in will improve our team here.

I think we've seen a slow shift in drafting to bring in more high motor players that have tenacity and puck pursuit. 

Not sure which current young players we should ship out but Eichel coming back really has major roster impacts. 

[Thorner]

The "type" of players we need more of is: Good.

That's really it

No one wants players with a low motor