Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, WildCard said: From how Dreger worded it all ("framework", etc) does seem like we aren't quite on the verge of anything in the immediate term, I'd say. That's mostly what I took from it.
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, inkman said: And here I thought the shout out would be for Eichel’s package. Yes I am Anchorman. 1
Randall Flagg Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, Thorny said: From how Dreger worded it all ("framework", etc) does seem like we aren't quite on the verge of anything in the immediate term, I'd say. That's mostly what I took from it. I hope Chad still doesn't have his phone in a vice grip
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: I hope Chad still doesn't have his phone in a vice grip I really like Chad's stuff - that one was a stinker definitely.
Rasmus_ Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 13 hours ago, Thwomp! said: Trash: #5, Merzlikins and Chinakhov, is okay....but it's not close to enough. Pretenders, raise your hand up. Seeya!
LGR4GM Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, TheCerebral1 said: Trash: #5, Merzlikins and Chinakhov, is okay....but it's not close to enough. Pretenders, raise your hand up. Seeya! That's not even okay. That is a completely garbage trade that I wouldn't accept for Reinhart let alone Eichel. 1
DarthEbriate Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, Thorny said: Or in Backstroke of the West... But we can will account and then account for Jack's package. 1
Rasmus_ Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 3 hours ago, LGR4GM said: LA may be out on Eichel but... What about Reinhart, Risto (50% retained) for 9oa, Turcotte, Kempe, and Brock Faber. Hell yes, please!
Doohicksie Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 13 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: They'd only drop out if someone else is offering more. Or if their medical staff looked at Eichel's imaging and said..... eh..... no. 1
Flashsabre Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 3 hours ago, LGR4GM said: LA may be out on Eichel but... What about Reinhart, Risto (50% retained) for 9oa, Turcotte, Kempe, and Brock Faber. Kings have 8th 0A, Canucks 9th OA, Sens 10th OA. That would be a good return. My fairytale is that the Hawks fall short on Eichel and take this deal for Dach and 11th OA+. Not likely but it is fun to have dreams.😆
Flashsabre Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 In defense of guys like Dreger they have to do these radio hits every week and if they have no new info out there they have to massage what they already know/ have said to make it sound interesting.
dudacek Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 34 minutes ago, JohnC said: I strenuously don't believe that a stand alone 3OA trade meets the GM's baseline. Although it could be the centerpiece of a deal. If Zegras or Drysdale are not part of the package then there needs to be other pieces that can play next year. In my view the GM is very aware that he needs to bulk up his current roster next year. As @thorny said, I'm not saying 3OA alone, 3OA as the centrepiece. 26 minutes ago, Curt said: Has Dreger always been useless or is it a recent development? Seriously, I feel like everything he has put out in the past 6 months is kind of like this. Did I just not realize it before? 16 minutes ago, Thorny said: From how Dreger worded it all ("framework", etc) does seem like we aren't quite on the verge of anything in the immediate term, I'd say. That's mostly what I took from it. I really don't think Dreger has a strong insiders grasp of the Eichel situation, other than he's been told Eichel will be traded, the price is high, and a number of teams are interested. Most of the rest of what he says seems to be of the "sound like you know something without really saying anything" variety. Separately,I think Sabrespace is underrating the value of 3OA, possibly because of the negative hype of this draft. A pick that high has never been moved for a player in the salary cap era. Pick 7 (Derek Stepan/Antti Raanta) Pick 8 (Jordan Staal, Jeff Carter) and pick 9 (Corey Schneider) are the only locked-in top 10 picks ever moved that wasn't in a "move up/down" type of trade.
Gatorman0519 Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 We need a Zegras, Dach, Byfield type prospect plus a number one to even start negotiations imo. I have no doubt a young franchise center will eventually invoke a bidding war. Especially this time of year when other times are high on emotions and desperate for more scoring. KA can take his time.
dudacek Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Gatorman0519 said: We need a Zegras, Dach, Byfield type prospect plus a number one to even start negotiations imo. I have no doubt a young franchise center will eventually invoke a bidding war. Especially this time of year when other times are high on emotions and desperate for more scoring. KA can take his time. Zegras was 9, Dach 3 and Byfield 2. 3OA is in that tier.
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, dudacek said: As @thorny said, I'm not saying 3OA alone, 3OA as the centrepiece. I really don't think Dreger has a strong insiders grasp of the Eichel situation, other than he's been told Eichel will be traded, the price is high, and a number of teams are interested. Most of the rest of what he says seems to be of the "sound like you know something without really saying anything" variety. Separately,I think Sabrespace is underrating the value of 3OA, possibly because of the negative hype of this draft. A pick that high has never been moved for a player in the salary cap era. Pick 7 (Derek Stepan/Antti Raanta) Pick 8 (Jordan Staal, Jeff Carter) and pick 9 (Corey Schneider) are the only locked-in top 10 picks ever moved that wasn't in a "move up/down" type of trade. I wouldn't call it underrating value - I would call it using a different barometer to measure value. GM's definitely overvalue draft picks - by the weight they attribute to them, I agree with you. But if you measure it based on what type of actual prospect this pick is likely be (Beniers, Guenther, etc), and compare it to a prospect we all believe SHOULD be on the table for Eichel (Zegras), it's not wrong in my view to downplay it as a centrepiece. Zegras to me isn't a big enough anchor in an Eichel deal, if I am making this deal by choice. The circumstances have me accepting that as a reasonable return. Something short of Zegras doesn't really need to be downplayed to get the point across - it's not "enough" to me, on the surface Edited June 25, 2021 by Thorny
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, dudacek said: Zegras was 9, Dach 3 and Byfield 2. 3OA is in that tier. 3rd overall is a concept. It's not just about attributing value to 30A - it's about us guessing about what player Adams will use it on. There are plenty of players he could take that aren't on the level of Zegras - I would even say Beniers is not on the same level as Zegras. I know you say I tend to focus on smaller separation more and you are more focused on tiers - but one thing I'll keep mentioning regardless is that the 2 year separation between the picks *is* a factor in the value, as well. Zegras has more value than 30A 1
Brawndo Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 3 hours ago, LGR4GM said: LA may be out on Eichel but... What about Reinhart, Risto (50% retained) for 9oa, Turcotte, Kempe, and Brock Faber. I would have taken 9OA and Turcotte(who Sabres Fans would love) for that deal. I like yours better. I would start an auction between CBJ 5 OA, LAK 8th OA Vancouver 9th OA. 3 hours ago, French Collection said: Is it possible the NHL is telling teams to hold off on this trade until the Cup is awarded? This weekend with no games would be another possibility. (No Inside Info) 2 hours ago, dudacek said: I think I understand your central point very well: That Adams will keep Eichel if he does not get the requisite return. It's not that I disagree, it's that my point is that Adams' baseline level of return is below what many are willing to accept. My perception is that you think a deal has yet to be made because the baseline has yet to be met. I think that if 3OA is on the table, the baseline is already met and Adams is trying to lever that into the best return possible. Those saying "It has to Zegras++ or it has to be Dach+++ or we walk away" are going to be disappointed. I hope you are right. Adams and Karmanos need to decide What’s most valuable to them. 3OA, Comtois, Perrault plus another piece Dach, 12th OA and Reichel. 1 hour ago, JohnC said: In that ignominious deal we saved a penny and lost a dollar. I agree with you that the owner instigated the transaction. Truth 57 minutes ago, Curt said: Has Dreger always been useless or is it a recent development? Seriously, I feel like everything he has put out in the past 6 months is kind of like this. Did I just not realize it before? Dreger gets more of His Information from Agents, while Friedman’s Sources seem to be Front Offices and more accurate 49 minutes ago, Thorny said: I said results. Overall results - just because Botterill was apparently "forced" into the ROR deal (even though he was also apparently exploring it for months, like Adams and Eichel) doesn't mean he's off the hook for the entirety of the team's performance. Adams will be judged, as I said last offseason when everyone was awarding him a premature "A", on the team's record. The three deals that have been leaked are Carolina Lindholm, Skinner and a 2nd with Bonus Paid by Sabres Montreal Danualt, Poehling and a 2nd (Botterill wanted 3OA) and the Deal they took from St Louis. Not paying the bonus cost them big time. The Instigators also came up with a VGK Trade Proposal that would make My Head Explode. Glass, Tuch and VGK 2021 1st for Eichel. Biron feels that Glass is their Number One Prospect, umm that would be Krebs, Marty.
WildCard Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Thorny said: 3rd overall is a concept. It's not just about attributing value to 30A - it's about us guessing about what player Adams will use it on. There are plenty of players he could take that aren't on the level of Zegras - I would even say Beniers is not on the same level as Zegras. I know you say I tend to focus on smaller separation more and you are more focused on tiers - but one thing I'll keep mentioning regardless is that the 2 year separation between the picks *is* a factor in the value, as well. Zegras has more value than 30A 1000% 2
LGR4GM Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 Zegras is more valuable right now than 3oa because 3oa is a complete unknown and Zegras has an additional 2 years of data we can review. We have a clearer understanding of what Zegras is. Can 3oa in this draft be as good as Trevor Zegras, yes. But there is a little unknown in there. 3
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 It was weird when Botterill traded a 6th in one draft for the 6th in the next - it's generally accepted that earlier the ETA of a pick is, the more value it has. A 5th overall in 2025 is more valuable in a trade than a 5th overall in 2027. Even if Zegras and Beniers are equal talent tiers, I see separation in value It's also obvious Zegras has more value because he's off the table and 3OA isn't. If Adams doesn't see value in that, I'd say he's mistaken
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, Brawndo said: I would have taken 9OA and Turcotte(who Sabres Fans would love) for that deal. I like yours better. I would start an auction between CBJ 5 OA, LAK 8th OA Vancouver 9th OA. This weekend with no games would be another possibility. (No Inside Info) Adams and Karmanos need to decide What’s most valuable to them. 3OA, Comtois, Perrault plus another piece Dach, 12th OA and Reichel. Truth Dreger gets more of His Information from Agents, while Friedman’s Sources seem to be Front Offices and more accurate The three deals that have been leaked are Carolina Lindholm, Skinner and a 2nd with Bonus Paid by Sabres Montreal Danualt, Poehling and a 2nd (Botterill wanted 3OA) and the Deal they took from St Louis. Not paying the bonus cost them big time. The Instigators also came up with a VGK Trade Proposal that would make My Head Explode. Glass, Tuch and VGK 2021 1st for Eichel. Biron feels that Glass is their Number One Prospect, umm that would be Krebs, Marty. It sure did, but it doesn't change my point that Botterill was rightly judged on the overall results.
sabremike Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Thorny said: It was weird when Botterill traded a 6th in one draft for the 6th in the next - it's generally accepted that earlier the ETA of a pick is, the more value it has. A 5th overall in 2025 is more valuable in a trade than a 5th overall in 2027. Even if Zegras and Beniers are equal talent tiers, I see separation in value If you were doing a list of the dumbest trades in NHL history that one has to make the list. It's the type of trade that sounds like a sketch comedy routine except it actually happened. 1
Randall Flagg Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, Brawndo said: I would have taken 9OA and Turcotte(who Sabres Fans would love) for that deal. I like yours better. I would start an auction between CBJ 5 OA, LAK 8th OA Vancouver 9th OA. This weekend with no games would be another possibility. (No Inside Info) Adams and Karmanos need to decide What’s most valuable to them. 3OA, Comtois, Perrault plus another piece Dach, 12th OA and Reichel. Truth Dreger gets more of His Information from Agents, while Friedman’s Sources seem to be Front Offices and more accurate The three deals that have been leaked are Carolina Lindholm, Skinner and a 2nd with Bonus Paid by Sabres Montreal Danualt, Poehling and a 2nd (Botterill wanted 3OA) and the Deal they took from St Louis. Not paying the bonus cost them big time. The Instigators also came up with a VGK Trade Proposal that would make My Head Explode. Glass, Tuch and VGK 2021 1st for Eichel. Biron feels that Glass is their Number One Prospect, umm that would be Krebs, Marty. I swear Marty said he thought Glass and Tuch was too much for Vegas to want to give up. This guy is nuts. Separately, do you think Chicago has offered something around Dach? The way you compared it to Ducks offer makes me think so? 4 minutes ago, Thorny said: It was weird when Botterill traded a 6th in one draft for the 6th in the next - it's generally accepted that earlier the ETA of a pick is, the more value it has. A 5th overall in 2025 is more valuable in a trade than a 5th overall in 2027. Even if Zegras and Beniers are equal talent tiers, I see separation in value It's also obvious Zegras has more value because he's off the table and 3OA isn't. If Adams doesn't see value in that, I'd say he's mistaken Also Jason traded the FIRST pick of the 6th round for the next years sixth, with the Leafs, a team that certainly wasn't about to finish last.
LGR4GM Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Brawndo said: I would have taken 9OA and Turcotte(who Sabres Fans would love) for that deal. I like yours better. I would start an auction between CBJ 5 OA, LAK 8th OA Vancouver 9th OA. This weekend with no games would be another possibility. (No Inside Info) Adams and Karmanos need to decide What’s most valuable to them. 3OA, Comtois, Perrault plus another piece Dach, 12th OA and Reichel. The Instigators also came up with a VGK Trade Proposal that would make My Head Explode. Glass, Tuch and VGK 2021 1st for Eichel. Biron feels that Glass is their Number One Prospect, umm that would be Krebs, Marty. Thinking more on the Reinhart trade idea I think we would need to add. Reinhart, 53rd overall, Risto (50%), for 9oa, Turcotte, Faber, Kempe I think 9oa and Turcotte is worth Reinhart and probably a little high for him hence tossing in 53rd oa (might need to be 32oa). Risto is worth a prospect in Faber and Kempe to help the cap situation. The instigators talking about Glass and not Krebs was hilarious to me.
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