LGR4GM Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Thorny said: Yes I did know that! My issue with Jack Quinn however, as numerously stated is that his encouraging junior production consisted of a grand total of 1 season, betting on a sample size of 1 season. There’s no way Beniers has a floor of 55 points imo. think it was Hoss earlier arguing Liger about that and I agree, except it was about an Anthony Cirelli floor: he’d be a slam dunk 1 overall in this draft if his basement floor was 55 points. What is Beniers floor?
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: What is Beniers floor? Floor? How does Sam Bennett look? To pretend that can’t happen is naive. It’s not likely but he’s not some sort of “guarantee” to be a 50 point player. 1
dudacek Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Thorny said: Yes I did know that! My issue with Jack Quinn however, as numerously stated is that his encouraging junior production consisted of a grand total of 1 season, betting on a sample size of 1 season. There’s no way Beniers has a floor of 55 points imo. think it was Hoss earlier arguing Liger about that and I agree, except it was about an Anthony Cirelli floor: he’d be a slam dunk 1 overall in this draft if his basement floor was 55 points. I don't see the flash in Krebs you refer to upthread. I see smarts, discipline, and courage. I see really good puck distribution, but i don't see Barzal-like puckhandling. To be clear I like the player a lot. IMO, Beniers has too much in terms of hard skill, work ethic and smarts do be anything less than a good 2nd line centre in the NHL. And good 2Cs get 50-55 points. He's not a slam-dunk #1 because teams don't think his ceiling is much higher than his floor. IMO it's a case of looking so hard at the tools, you miss the player and his capacity to keep growing as hockey player. They might be right about a low-cieling, but I can't see any GM ever regretting taking Matty Beniers; he's does too much right. 5 minutes ago, Thorny said: Floor? How does Sam Bennett look? To pretend that can’t happen is naive. It’s not likely but he’s not some sort of “guarantee” to be a 50 point player. Of course not. We're talking projections, not absolutes. I think Matt Beniers is a much smarter hockey player than Bennett ever was. Edited June 25, 2021 by dudacek
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, dudacek said: I don't see the flash in Krebs you refer to upthread. I see smarts, discipline, and courage. I see really good puck distribution, but i don't see Barzal-like puckhandling. To be clear I like the player a lot. IMO, Beniers has too much in terms of hard skill, work ethic and smarts do be anything less than a good 2nd line centre in the NHL. And good 2Cs get 50-55 points. He's not a slam-dunk #1 because teams don't think his ceiling is much higher than his floor. IMO it's a case of looking so hard at the tools, you miss the player and his capacity to keep growing as hockey player. They might be right about a low-cieling, but I can't see any GM ever regretting taking Matty Beniers; he's does too much right. Of course not. We're talking projections, not absolutes. I think Matt Beniers is a much smarter hockey player than Bennett ever was. Is not the function of floor and ceiling to represent the outliers? Guess I’m lost then if they are no longer being used in that context. The “floor” of what we think Beniers likely develops into, assuming a proper system with a functional team around him and solid coaching? That he could fall below it but that it represents the most likely “low” result? Sure, that’s his floor Edited June 25, 2021 by Thorny
Curt Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, dudacek said: Where are you getting the higher offensive ceiling? Beniers draft year: 24 points in 24 games NHLe 27 Krebs draft year: 64 points in 68 games. NHLe 23 I’m not even saying that Krebs has a higher offensive ceiling, because I’m not sure that’s true, but there are limitations to just using that NHLe number like that. You are leaving out a huge amount of context. Their team situations in their draft years were just about as different as can be. Beniers was on one of the best NCAA teams in the country, stacked with NHL prospects. He did not lead his team in scoring. Krebs was on a truly terrible WHL team with no talent around him. He led his team in scoring by a mile. Edited June 25, 2021 by Curt
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) This guy at least has the Barzal style comparison I saw https://www.google.ca/amp/s/lastwordonsports.com/hockey/2019/04/10/peyton-krebs-scouting-report/amp/ Good read overall Edited June 25, 2021 by Thorny
LGR4GM Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Curt said: I’m not even saying that Krebs has a higher offensive ceiling, because I’m not sure that’s true, but there are limitations to just using that NHLe number like that. You are leaving out a huge amount of context. Their team situations in their draft years were just about as different as can be. Beniers was on one of the best NCAA teams in the country, stacked with NHL prospects. He did not lead his team in scoring. Krebs was on a truly terrible WHL team and led his team in scoring by a mile. This is important to note. It was 16 more points. That's pretty decent. I think Jarvis was in that ballpark... Edited June 25, 2021 by LGR4GM 1
LGR4GM Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 Whoops Jarvis was 28 points better then the next guy but still it's an important note. Beniers had 6 less points and was 3rd (2nd really) on his team in total points.
Eleven Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 This is how it's going down: SABRES TRADE EICHEL IN NHL-RECORD 5 TEAM DEAL By John Wowraw, Associated Press TORONTO, June 25, 2021 In a flurry of trades, the Buffalo Sabres traded superstar center Jack Eichel, the second-overall pick in the 2015 NHL Entry Draft, in a blockbuster deal on Thursday night that involved five teams. According to league sources, the Sabres were unable to find satisfactory compensation from just one team and needed to engineer a multi-team deal. In the deal, the Sabres traded Eichel, 24, to the Anaheim Ducks for Trevor Zegras, but the Sabres needed more from the deal than just Zegras. Anaheim then traded Eichel and a first-round pick and goaltender John Gibson to the Chicago Blackhawks for centers Alex DeBrincat and Kirby Dach, swapping their third-overall 2021 draft pick with Chicago’s 11th-overall pick, and sent Zegras, Debrincat, Dach, and the 11th pick to Buffalo. As a return for the extra pick, Buffalo sent defenseman Rasmus Dahlin to Anaheim. Anaheim then sent Dahlin to the Toronto Maple Leafs for playoff disappointment forward Mitch Marner and goaltender Jack Campbell, formerly of the USA World Junior Championship team. Anaheim traded Campbell and forward Richard Rakell to Winnipeg for goaltender Connor Hellebuyck, and sent Hellebuyck to Buffalo for goaltending prospect Ukka-Pekka Lukkonen and German prospect John-Jacob Peterka. Buffalo then traded Hellebuyck, Zegras, Debrincat, Dach, the first-overall pick in 2021, and forward Samson Reinhart to Chicago for Eichel. 1 1 1
Thorner Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Eleven said: This is how it's going down: SABRES TRADE EICHEL IN NHL-RECORD 5 TEAM DEAL By John Wowraw, Associated Press TORONTO, June 25, 2021 In a flurry of trades, the Buffalo Sabres traded superstar center Jack Eichel, the second-overall pick in the 2015 NHL Entry Draft, in a blockbuster deal on Thursday night that involved five teams. According to league sources, the Sabres were unable to find satisfactory compensation from just one team and needed to engineer a multi-team deal. In the deal, the Sabres traded Eichel, 24, to the Anaheim Ducks for Trevor Zegras, but the Sabres needed more from the deal than just Zegras. Anaheim then traded Eichel and a first-round pick and goaltender John Gibson to the Chicago Blackhawks for centers Alex DeBrincat and Kirby Dach, swapping their third-overall 2021 draft pick with Chicago’s 11th-overall pick, and sent Zegras, Debrincat, Dach, and the 11th pick to Buffalo. As a return for the extra pick, Buffalo sent defenseman Rasmus Dahlin to Anaheim. Anaheim then sent Dahlin to the Toronto Maple Leafs for playoff disappointment forward Mitch Marner and goaltender Jack Campbell, formerly of the USA World Junior Championship team. Anaheim traded Campbell and forward Richard Rakell to Winnipeg for goaltender Connor Hellebuyck, and sent Hellebuyck to Buffalo for goaltending prospect Ukka-Pekka Lukkonen and German prospect John-Jacob Peterka. Buffalo then traded Hellebuyck, Zegras, Debrincat, Dach, the first-overall pick in 2021, and forward Samson Reinhart to Chicago for Eichel. Needed this. According to some scientific theory there is a universe where this happened
PromoTheRobot Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Thwomp! said: They'd only drop out if someone else is offering more. Edited June 25, 2021 by PromoTheRobot 1
dudacek Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 18 minutes ago, Curt said: I’m not even saying that Krebs has a higher offensive ceiling, because I’m not sure that’s true, but there are limitations to just using that NHLe number like that. You are leaving out a huge amount of context. Their team situations in their draft years were just about as different as can be. Beniers was on one of the best NCAA teams in the country, stacked with NHL prospects. He did not lead his team in scoring. Krebs was on a truly terrible WHL team with no talent around him. He led his team in scoring by a mile. 14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: This is important to note. It was 16 more points. That's pretty decent. I think Jarvis was in that ballpark... This might mean Krebs had squat to work with and put up as good numbers as Beniers who was propped up by those around him. It might also mean Krebs got a lot of extra ice time, including in garbage time where the opponent had turned off the jets, whereas Beniers got less ice time with more limited prime opportunities. Also Beniers was a rookie on a stacked team fighting to earn his ice time, Krebs was the obvious centrepiece of his.
Randall Flagg Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: They'd only drop out if someone else is offering more. Yep, good to see that a deal obviously not good enough is being cast aside 2 1
dudacek Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, Thwomp! said: I'd advise people to read the original article. "A trade was believed to consist of the 5th overall pick, Elvis Merzlikins, either Texier or Peeke and Chinakhov or Marchenko" was clearly speculation on Portzline's part. Yet these leach sites that piggyback off the real reporters will be what people remember. 3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: They'd only drop out if someone else is offering more. So much this. I think we're getting close. 2 1
JohnC Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: They'd only drop out if someone else is offering more. Not necessarily. Columbus may have established a limit below what the Sabres are willing to accept. That doesn't mean that any other team is offering more. What it indicates is that the Sabres know what they are willing to accept and what they are not. So far it appears that the offers don't match our expectation. The situation/market should become clearer as the draft approaches. Right now the situation is fluid.
JohnC Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 26 minutes ago, Eleven said: This is how it's going down: SABRES TRADE EICHEL IN NHL-RECORD 5 TEAM DEAL By John Wowraw, Associated Press TORONTO, June 25, 2021 In a flurry of trades, the Buffalo Sabres traded superstar center Jack Eichel, the second-overall pick in the 2015 NHL Entry Draft, in a blockbuster deal on Thursday night that involved five teams. According to league sources, the Sabres were unable to find satisfactory compensation from just one team and needed to engineer a multi-team deal. In the deal, the Sabres traded Eichel, 24, to the Anaheim Ducks for Trevor Zegras, but the Sabres needed more from the deal than just Zegras. Anaheim then traded Eichel and a first-round pick and goaltender John Gibson to the Chicago Blackhawks for centers Alex DeBrincat and Kirby Dach, swapping their third-overall 2021 draft pick with Chicago’s 11th-overall pick, and sent Zegras, Debrincat, Dach, and the 11th pick to Buffalo. As a return for the extra pick, Buffalo sent defenseman Rasmus Dahlin to Anaheim. Anaheim then sent Dahlin to the Toronto Maple Leafs for playoff disappointment forward Mitch Marner and goaltender Jack Campbell, formerly of the USA World Junior Championship team. Anaheim traded Campbell and forward Richard Rakell to Winnipeg for goaltender Connor Hellebuyck, and sent Hellebuyck to Buffalo for goaltending prospect Ukka-Pekka Lukkonen and German prospect John-Jacob Peterka. Buffalo then traded Hellebuyck, Zegras, Debrincat, Dach, the first-overall pick in 2021, and forward Samson Reinhart to Chicago for Eichel. My head is spinning. Let's just simplify the issue. Trade Jack to Chicago for Dach and Debrincat, straight up. If we can get their first round pick in exchange for one of our second round picks I would make the exchange. If not, I would be willing to give up Jack for Dach and Debrincat. Plain and simple one lane highway with no curves.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 11 minutes ago, JohnC said: Not necessarily. Columbus may have established a limit below what the Sabres are willing to accept. That doesn't mean that any other team is offering more. What it indicates is that the Sabres know what they are willing to accept and what they are not. So far it appears that the offers don't match our expectation. The situation/market should become clearer as the draft approaches. Right now the situation is fluid. Why would Adams reject an offer out of hand when he can use that to drive up other offers?
Curt Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 17 minutes ago, dudacek said: This might mean Krebs had squat to work with and put up as good numbers as Beniers who was propped up by those around him. It might also mean Krebs got a lot of extra ice time, including in garbage time where the opponent had turned off the jets, whereas Beniers got less ice time with more limited prime opportunities. Also Beniers was a rookie on a stacked team fighting to earn his ice time, Krebs was the obvious centrepiece of his. True, there is certainly a lot of context in both of their situations that wouldn’t be captured simply by NHLe. They both had fairly unusual circumstances.
JohnC Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, PromoTheRobot said: Why would Adams reject an offer out of hand when he can use that to drive up other offers? He would reject this offer simply because it wasn't good enough. I don't see how rejecting this particular offer is going to drive up other offers. It appears that he has a baseline value return that he is not going to go below for any team. Are offers coming in and increasing as the draft approaches? I don't know.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, JohnC said: He would reject this offer simply because it wasn't good enough. I don't see how rejecting this particular offer is going to drive up other offers. It appears that he has a baseline value return that he is not going to go below for any team. Are offers coming in and increasing as the draft approaches? I don't know. At this stage you don't say yes or no to anything. You see what's being offered and ask can you do better?
LGR4GM Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: At this stage you don't say yes or no to anything. You see what's being offered and ask can you do better? Columbus can't do better. They're a wasteland of nothing. 1 1
Curt Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: At this stage you don't say yes or no to anything. You see what's being offered and ask can you do better? Correct, it seems that perhaps Columbus got to a point where the answer to that question was a definite no.
JohnC Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: At this stage you don't say yes or no to anything. You see what's being offered and ask can you do better? Where I diverge from your view is that the issue for me isn't who is making the best offer. The position that I am advocating is that unless a level of return is at a certain level the Sabres shouldn't make a deal regardless who is making the best offer. Edited June 25, 2021 by JohnC 2
Pimlach Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 22 hours ago, thewookie1 said: I need someone to play 1C next year, the last thing I want to do is send a Center group of Zegras, Cozens, Mitts and Girgs; they'll get ran over. Maybe but atleast that group at least has some future. Let’s get a goalie.
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