Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[sabremike]

1 hour ago, Radar said:

He did ok figuring he was using goalies walking off the street practically. I think you overestimate the team Granato had to play with and underestimate the improved play of many young players the previous coach didn't utilize. Frankly I think you're against anything connected to this franchise.

[nfreeman]

49 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

It has pitted virtually the entire hockey world against the Sabres.  If he is that Machiavellian and wants out that badly, it might have been his plan to engender pressure to force a panic trade where we got bupkes in return.

I don't agree with this.  I think there are plenty of hockey insiders, and fans, who understand the team's reluctance to go along with an unproven surgical technique on their franchise player's spine.

 

53 minutes ago, Radar said:

It gets him an element of support from some fans to side with him. A simple trade demand might alienate some.

I agree that it gets him some support, but I think that support would evaporate, and backfire on him, if it becomes clear that he was lying.

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

Separately:  I think the injury is being overlooked as a driving factor of the apparent decision to move on from Eichel.  I will also say that if KA has decided to move Jack solely for cultural reasons, I disagree strongly with the decision, unless Jack is really one of those rare guys that no one can stand to be around.  

I just want to be clear:

Its your take that Adams would probably rather be keeping Jack, but the injury and the difference in opinion of its treatment has driven enough of a wedge that he has decided the right path is to trade him, even if it means possibly taking a hit on the return.

Im not saying you’re wrong, but I am saying if you are right Adams is an idiot. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

 

But you're also adding VO why? Jack alone should get that 

If you can get in return a young player such as Zegras who may be a #1C, a gritty second line player in Comtois plus a high first round pick I would be willing to make the deal if VO needs to be added for the deal to get it done. The other side also has a say in a proposed deal. If this is the best deal you can get on the market then you take the plunge.  

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I just want to be clear:

Its your take that Adams would probably rather be keeping Jack, but the injury and the difference in opinion of its treatment has driven enough of a wedge that he has decided the right path is to trade him, even if it means possibly taking a hit on the return.

Im not saying you’re wrong, but I am saying if you are right Adams is an idiot. 

I apologize for repeating what I said in a previous post. If you go back to the interview that KA gave to the press after the Jack interview it is clear that he is going to move on from Jack and other players because he emphasized that he only wants player who want to be here and are bought in. The assumption is that Jack and his reps have communicated to the GM and organization that he prefers to be somewhere else. And the GM had emphasized in that interview that he doesn't want any players on the team who feel that way. Based on the reports on the active marketing of Jack and Samson the GM is acting on his stance. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, kas23 said:

Yes, look where “spending to the cap” has got us. This is what Terry was saying about having a leaner, more efficient team. Spending to the cap doesn’t get you any prize and Terry knows this. If Jack and Rhino (and Risto) get traded this off-season, there’s a near 0% probability we will be spending to the cap next season. Who in the world would then be spending that on considering we’re projected to have $20M available?

The success or lack there of is irrelevant, I was just saying that they have spent.

The thing is that even after the statement about being more efficient, effective, and economical they still spent to the cap.

If the Pegulas are going to get super cheap with the player salaries, I’ll believe it when I see it, because it hasn’t happened yet.

[nfreeman]

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I just want to be clear:

Its your take that Adams would probably rather be keeping Jack, but the injury and the difference in opinion of its treatment has driven enough of a wedge that he has decided the right path is to trade him, even if it means possibly taking a hit on the return.

Im not saying you’re wrong, but I am saying if you are right Adams is an idiot. 

No.  My take is that the injury itself — not the disagreement over the best course of treatment — is the primary reason that KA has decided to trade him — ie KA has determined, after consulting with experts, that Eichel will probably never regain his elite form.  Accordingly, the theory goes, now is the best time to trade him, before the rest of the NHL realizes that Jack is permanently damaged goods.

The alternative is that KA has decided that Jack’s attitude is bad enough that the team is better off without him.  That is a conclusion that I would strongly disagree with KA about, unless Jack is one of those rare and truly toxic individuals. 

 

[spndnchz]

Like a bully taking your lunch money.

[kas23]

23 minutes ago, Curt said:

The success or lack there of is irrelevant, I was just saying that they have spent.

The thing is that even after the statement about being more efficient, effective, and economical they still spent to the cap.

If the Pegulas are going to get super cheap with the player salaries, I’ll believe it when I see it, because it hasn’t happened yet.

Look, I never wanted to think this would be a financial decision (and I’m actually for trading Jack) until I heard they wanted to move Jack as soon as Adams started. Did Kevyn really already have his hands that deep into the cookie jar to have already formed an opinion on Jack? This is what Terry said on the day they fired Botterill:

 

"When we were in detailed discussions with Jason and how we felt we needed to move forward effectively, efficiently and economically running this franchise, we felt that there were too many differences of opinion going into the future that we just thought -- since we had more time -- it would be best for us to make this change," Terry Pegula said.

 

Enter Kevyn and the cost cutting begins and efforts are immediately made to gauge Jack’s market. Coincidence? Whether they have spent to the salary cap in the past is irrelevant. Things have now changed as detailed above. We have 1 year in which to judge these new economics. Much of the hockey department has been gutted and not rehired. Players? You cannot just fire them. But, you can’t trade them to save cash. And Terry has done this before. We’ll see what happens going forward, but we certainly are not spending to the cap next season. Doubt the year after either. 

[Brawndo]

39 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

No.  My take is that the injury itself — not the disagreement over the best course of treatment — is the primary reason that KA has decided to trade him — ie KA has determined, after consulting with experts, that Eichel will probably never regain his elite form.  Accordingly, the theory goes, now is the best time to trade him, before the rest of the NHL realizes that Jack is permanently damaged goods.

The alternative is that KA has decided that Jack’s attitude is bad enough that the team is better off without him.  That is a conclusion that I would strongly disagree with KA about, unless Jack is one of those rare and truly toxic individuals. 

 

A counterpoint to this Wawrow mentioned yesterday on TGAF Podcast that Eichel was being moved even without the injury.

 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, kas23 said:

Look, I never wanted to think this would be a financial decision (and I’m actually for trading Jack) until I heard they wanted to move Jack as soon as Adams started. Did Kevyn really already have his hands that deep into the cookie jar to have already formed an opinion on Jack? This is what Terry said on the day they fired Botterill:

 

"When we were in detailed discussions with Jason and how we felt we needed to move forward effectively, efficiently and economically running this franchise, we felt that there were too many differences of opinion going into the future that we just thought -- since we had more time -- it would be best for us to make this change," Terry Pegula said.

 

Enter Kevyn and the cost cutting begins and efforts are immediately made to gauge Jack’s market. Coincidence? Whether they have spent to the salary cap in the past is irrelevant. Things have now changed as detailed above. We have 1 year in which to judge these new economics. Much of the hockey department has been gutted and not rehired. Players? You cannot just fire them. But, you can’t trade them to save cash. And Terry has done this before. We’ll see what happens going forward, but we certainly are not spending to the cap next season. Doubt the year after either. 

You say that we have one year to judge these new economics.  I agree.  In that one year the team spent to the cap and signed one of the top free agents.

Im not saying that it’s impossible that they don’t spend to the cap next season.  In a rebuilding year maybe they won’t hit the cap.  During the tank years I don’t think they did either.

I simply have never seen the Pegulas be hesitant to spend on player, or coach, salaries.  They have consistently spent.  I’ll worry about them not spending when it actually happens.

I reject the theory that trading Eichel is financially motivated.

[Flashsabre]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

A counterpoint to this Wawrow mentioned yesterday on TGAF Podcast that Eichel was being moved even without the injury.

 

I think there has been a lot going on with Jack that we don’t know about.

[JohnC]

12 hours ago, nfreeman said:

No.  My take is that the injury itself — not the disagreement over the best course of treatment — is the primary reason that KA has decided to trade him — ie KA has determined, after consulting with experts, that Eichel will probably never regain his elite form.  Accordingly, the theory goes, now is the best time to trade him, before the rest of the NHL realizes that Jack is permanently damaged goods.

The alternative is that KA has decided that Jack’s attitude is bad enough that the team is better off without him.  That is a conclusion that I would strongly disagree with KA about, unless Jack is one of those rare and truly toxic individuals. 

 

Do you really believe that the Sabres are going to be able to hoodwink a trading partner over Jack's health status? Do you really believe that a team would give up a bounty of assets for a player who turns out to be damaged goods? I'm very confident that teams serious about trading for Jack will do their due diligence. Will there be risks on his future health status? There are always some risks that will be factored in the equation. 

Jack's attitude doesn't have to rise to the level of toxicity to reach a point where the GM feels that it is in the organization's best interest that he be moved, especially if he wants a fresh start. My opinion: I'm sure that the driving force here is that Jack (and even Samson and Risto) is frustrated with the situation here and don't want to be here any longer. There is no secret about their dissatisfaction with the situation and organization. And although KA is an inexperienced GM he isn't so clueless not to be able to recognize their unhappiness here. 

To me this is a case where the players are not the bad guys. This inevitable divorce of players wanting out happens in all sports. In badly run organizations this type of disgruntled situation happens more often than with well run franchises.  Look at the Green Bay and Rogers bad blood saga. I'm not happy that the situation has devolved to this but it is time to move on. And that's the thinking I believe that KA has. 

 

[dudacek]

OK, this was posted on Reddit by some random guy. Too funny not to share:

So none of you are going to believe me, but I'm posting what I've witnessed today during my reffing experience today.

Rob Blake is in town for his son's hockey tournament (Battle of Buffalo). During warm-ups, one of the kids goes to Blake's son and the conversation goes like this:

"dude, is your dad really trying to trade for eichel?"

"***** no, he's trying for Reinhart and Risto"

"why not eichel?"

"he's a whiny bitch from what my dad says"

I skated away cause I was laughing too hard

[Archie Lee]

31 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Do you really believe that the Sabres are going to be able to hoodwink a trading partner over Jack's health status? Do you really believe that a team would give up a bounty of assets for a player who turns out to be damaged goods? I'm very confident that teams serious about trading for Jack will do their due diligence. Will there be risks on his future health status? There are always some risks that will be factored in the equation. 

Jack's attitude doesn't have to rise to the level of toxicity to reach a point where the GM feels that it is in the organization's best interest that he be moved, especially if he wants a fresh start. My opinion: I'm sure that the driving force here is that Jack (and even Samson and Risto) is frustrated with the situation here and don't want to be here any longer. There is no secret about their dissatisfaction with the situation and organization. And although KA is an inexperienced GM he isn't so clueless not to be able to recognize their unhappiness here. 

To me this is a case where the players are not the bad guys. This inevitable divorce of players wanting out happens in all sports. In badly run organizations this type of disgruntled situation happens more often than with well run franchises.  Look at the Green Bay and Rogers bad blood saga. I'm not happy that the situation has devolved to this but it is time to move on. And that's the thinking I believe that KA has. 

 

I agree with this.  I don't fault Eichel, Reinhart and Risto for wanting to move on.  It is not their fault that the organization failed to build a team around them that had both sufficient talent to help them succeed and the sort of veteran leadership needed to assist them with their short-comings.

My view is that the Sabres have more than sufficient assets (veteran players, including the 3 likely to be traded, young players and prospects, draft capital, likely cap space) to be successful on the ice.  I think this is regardless of the path they chose.  A good hockey-man could get the Sabres pointed in the right direction whether he chooses to keep the big 3 or trade them for futures and start a new re-build or trade them while making hockey moves intended to get the team to competitive hockey more quickly. I don't know that Adams is that hockey-man. If I have hope it comes from seeing that Adams has done some things right, in my view.  He didn't sign anyone to a bad long-term contract last off-season.  He did a decent job getting the team some draft capital back.  He recognized how bad Krueger was and had the stones to go to the Pegulas and sell them on his vision (I'm speculating on that one a bit).  

We are going to get new data on Adams soon.

 

   

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

OK, this was posted on Reddit by some random guy. Too funny not to share:

So none of you are going to believe me, but I'm posting what I've witnessed today during my reffing experience today.

Rob Blake is in town for his son's hockey tournament (Battle of Buffalo). During warm-ups, one of the kids goes to Blake's son and the conversation goes like this:

"dude, is your dad really trying to trade for eichel?"

"***** no, he's trying for Reinhart and Risto"

"why not eichel?"

"he's a whiny bitch from what my dad says"

I skated away cause I was laughing too hard

There's been rumblings of a west coast team wanting to trade for a forward and Risto, the assumption was Eichel by Reinhart makes sense. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I agree with this.  I don't fault Eichel, Reinhart and Risto for wanting to move on.  It is not their fault that the organization failed to build a team around them that had both sufficient talent to help them succeed and the sort of veteran leadership needed to assist them with their short-comings.

My view is that the Sabres have more than sufficient assets (veteran players, including the 3 likely to be traded, young players and prospects, draft capital, likely cap space) to be successful on the ice.  I think this is regardless of the path they chose.  A good hockey-man could get the Sabres pointed in the right direction whether he chooses to keep the big 3 or trade them for futures and start a new re-build or trade them while making hockey moves intended to get the team to competitive hockey more quickly. I don't know that Adams is that hockey-man. If I have hope it comes from seeing that Adams has done some things right, in my view.  He didn't sign anyone to a bad long-term contract last off-season.  He did a decent job getting the team some draft capital back.  He recognized how bad Krueger was and had the stones to go to the Pegulas and sell them on his vision (I'm speculating on that one a bit).  

We are going to get new data on Adams soon.

 

   

The plug on Krueger should have been pulled sooner. I don't know any other organization that would have tolerated such a disastrous situation as long as it did. It became even more evident when you compare how the level of play dramatically improved after the coaching change. It was a ridiculous situation. 

[Hoss]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

There's been rumblings of a west coast team wanting to trade for a forward and Risto, the assumption was Eichel by Reinhart makes sense. 

Pairing Risto and Reinhart makes more sense than Eichel and Risto, as well. If that were accurate I wouldn’t be mad about it. I think Eichel has plenty of suitors (so does Reinhart but hearing someone wants Risto tickles me).

[JohnC]

22 minutes ago, dudacek said:

OK, this was posted on Reddit by some random guy. Too funny not to share:

So none of you are going to believe me, but I'm posting what I've witnessed today during my reffing experience today.

Rob Blake is in town for his son's hockey tournament (Battle of Buffalo). During warm-ups, one of the kids goes to Blake's son and the conversation goes like this:

"dude, is your dad really trying to trade for eichel?"

"***** no, he's trying for Reinhart and Risto"

"why not eichel?"

"he's a whiny bitch from what my dad says"

I skated away cause I was laughing too hard

What do you think the return could be for a Samson and Risto tandem? 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

What do you think the return could be for a Samson and Risto tandem? 

I'd ask for Turcotte, Faber, 9oa, and one other piece like Fagemo or Kupari if I can get him. 

Some will say that's too much but Reinhart is a 50pt 20g guarantee on the worst team who can play c or w. Ristolainen is going to be a decent 2nd pairing defenseman. Figure Reinhart is worth Turcotte Faber and part of 9oa and Risto is worth a prospect and the other half of 9oa. 

I'm probably a little high but not by much. 

[Hoss]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What do you think the return could be for a Samson and Risto tandem? 

I hope they’re making teams give them two version of their offers: futures and now. I’m sure some offers are a mixture of the two but it’s important to make sure we don’t just get futures in both/all deals.

What’s the book on Matt Roy from LA? He’s a 26 year old right hand dman but I’m not really familiar with his game. That’s something we should be speaking but I’m not sure if he’s the one. If he is, something like him, Vilardi and a pick (ideally 9th overall) for the pair.

[dudacek]

55 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I agree with this.  I don't fault Eichel, Reinhart and Risto for wanting to move on.  It is not their fault that the organization failed to build a team around them that had both sufficient talent to help them succeed and the sort of veteran leadership needed to assist them with their short-comings.

My view is that the Sabres have more than sufficient assets (veteran players, including the 3 likely to be traded, young players and prospects, draft capital, likely cap space) to be successful on the ice.  I think this is regardless of the path they chose.  A good hockey-man could get the Sabres pointed in the right direction whether he chooses to keep the big 3 or trade them for futures and start a new re-build or trade them while making hockey moves intended to get the team to competitive hockey more quickly. I don't know that Adams is that hockey-man. If I have hope it comes from seeing that Adams has done some things right, in my view.  He didn't sign anyone to a bad long-term contract last off-season.  He did a decent job getting the team some draft capital back.  He recognized how bad Krueger was and had the stones to go to the Pegulas and sell them on his vision (I'm speculating on that one a bit).  

We are going to get new data on Adams soon.

 

   

I am of the opinion Cozens, Quinn, Peterka, Asplund, Mittelstadt, Thompson, Jokiharju, Dahlin, Samuelsson, Johnson, Lukkonnen is a respectable collection of young talent.

We are going to add this year’s 2 2nds, plus a 1st OA, plus another sizeable collection of young pieces by trading Risto, Sam and Jack that could conceivably double that.

It should be a base a good hockey man can build a competitive team around. It’s just too bad the previous guys failed despite having similar tools at their disposal.

And that we are going to have to wait even longer to see if Kevyn is any better.

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by dudacek

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I'd ask for Turcotte, Faber, 9oa, and one other piece like Fagemo or Kupari if I can get him. 

Some will say that's too much but Reinhart is a 50pt 20g guarantee on the worst team who can play c or w. Ristolainen is going to be a decent 2nd pairing defenseman. Figure Reinhart is worth Turcotte Faber and part of 9oa and Risto is worth a prospect and the other half of 9oa. 

I'm probably a little high but not by much. 

If we can get something in the vicinity of what you are suggesting and if you combine it with a potential Jack haul then our roster will be thickened with a lot of good young players with plenty of upside. Will the team be better with the departure of our two prime players? Maybe not in the short run but in the not too distant future it would be a very competitive team. 

If handled smartly this offseason could result in a lot of positive feelings that originated from a lot of negative feelings about this franchise. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by JohnC

[dudacek]

20 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I'd ask for Turcotte, Faber, 9oa, and one other piece like Fagemo or Kupari if I can get him. 

Some will say that's too much but Reinhart is a 50pt 20g guarantee on the worst team who can play c or w. Ristolainen is going to be a decent 2nd pairing defenseman. Figure Reinhart is worth Turcotte Faber and part of 9oa and Risto is worth a prospect and the other half of 9oa. 

I'm probably a little high but not by much. 

From all the comparables I’ve searched, I don’t think you are too far off on Reinhart: 8OA (Canucks have 9) plus a 2ndary prospect like a Fagemo seems to be ballpark, if the interest is what people are making it out to be. The Sabres may have to send a lesser piece like a 3rd back.

Risto’s trade value fascinates me. Historically, big, nasty 40-point RH defencemen are gold in the NHL. But then you get that whole conventional analytics argument that says you’d get a better return collecting pop bottles.

I suspect NHL front offices are as divided on Risto as fans are.  But all you need is two GMs who like him bidding against each other.

My brain says if David Savard can rate a 1st and a 3rd putting up the kind of conventional and fancystats he has, then why can’t Risto? 

 But we shall see.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

OK, this was posted on Reddit by some random guy. Too funny not to share:

So none of you are going to believe me, but I'm posting what I've witnessed today during my reffing experience today.

Rob Blake is in town for his son's hockey tournament (Battle of Buffalo). During warm-ups, one of the kids goes to Blake's son and the conversation goes like this:

"dude, is your dad really trying to trade for eichel?"

"***** no, he's trying for Reinhart and Risto"

"why not eichel?"

"he's a whiny bitch from what my dad says"

I skated away cause I was laughing too hard

People still call Crosby that because of how he entered the league. It doesn’t mean that Jack can’t still be good and win.