Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[nfreeman]

17 minutes ago, K-9 said:

The perception by some that the owners are holding a player’s health hostage is as short-sighted as it gets with absolutely no regard for the complexity of the situation. Given that lack of ability to understand complexity, I’ll simplify it for those who hold the view that the owners are holding Eichel’s health hostage:

Jack Eichel is free to get whatever treatment from whatever doctor for whatever ails him and that has always been the case. Full stop.

This is obnoxious.

[North Buffalo]

Talked to a couple of Docs today about surgery Eichel wants and they thinks its risky because not as stable as fusion and if he gets hurt again with his preferred surgery  the consequences would likely be much worse.... their words... Im not sure... I get the sense is though he feels his preferred surgery would give his neck more flexibility but as stated above carries more inherent risks..

Edited October 22, 2021 by North Buffalo

[K-9]

25 minutes ago, Curt said:

This is also true, however, sympathizing with Eichel is not the result of a legal evaluation, it’s an emotional response.

Legally everything is fully above board and no one is violating anyone’s legal rights.  All parties signed contracts that they would abide by these rules.

Still, it really sucks for Eichel that he would possibly need to give up a guaranteed $50M in order to get the surgery he feels is best for his long term health.

Its certainly possible to see the situation as morally grey, if not straight up reflecting poorly on the Sabres, while at the same time recognizing that the organization is just protecting its interests and isn’t doing anything wrong from a legal standpoint.

Sympathy is fine. Indeed, it’s required. I suspect everyone involved, including and maybe even especially the Sabres, have sympathy for Eichel’s situation. There are only losers in that regard. 

Just don’t try to tell me that Eichel doesn’t have a choice. It may be a most difficult choice, but he is free to make it any time he wishes. This “held hostage” view is over top rhetoric aimed at the need to make the Sabres the “bad guy” when there simply aren’t any. It’s absurd. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by K-9

[K-9]

7 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Talked to a couple of Docs today about surgery Eichel wants and they thinks its risky because not as stable as fusion and if he gets hurt again with his preferred surgery  the consequences would likely be much worse.... their words... Im not sure... I get the sense is though he feels his preferred surgery would give his neck more flexibility but as stated above carries more inherent risks..

Is Letang having flexibility issues? Doesn’t seem like it to me. But every case, every patient, every outcome is unique so comparables are difficult to quantify.

[dudacek]

58 minutes ago, steveoath said:

I guess, for me, this was the last straw. Their overall narrative creative is clear.

'The Sabres need to trade eichel. He should get the surgery he wants. The one sided deep dive into 1 particular surgery. This looks bad for nhl/Sabres.' They seem to think Adams not being willing to drop his ask is foolish, and of course we should accept a Zamboni driver and a bunch of Tim Hortons gift cards as a fair trade.

Not once have they acted like actual journalists and sought to clarify the Sabres side. I.e. are there insurance ramifications and if so what are they? Why not balance their interview with a surgeon who recommends fusion/rest? 

I'm sick of all the talking heads trying to put pressure on sabres/adams to make a trade at a "reduced rate". 

Plus I think I just needed to vent tonight! 🥴

 

 

Thanks, that helps me understand. It's not so much this particular segment, more an overall frustration with the way this has been reported. I will say the bold was not what i heard in this segment at all. I heard Elliotte telling his listeners one good reason (the Risto trade) why the Sabres have not yet moved him.

Which was an effort to tell part of the Sabres side of the story.

 

47 minutes ago, K-9 said:

The perception by some that the owners are holding a player’s health hostage is as short-sighted as it gets with absolutely no regard for the complexity of the situation. Given that lack of ability to understand complexity, I’ll simplify it for those who hold the view that the owners are holding Eichel’s health hostage:

Jack Eichel is free to get whatever treatment from whatever doctor for whatever ails him and that has always been the case. Full stop.

Jack Eichel is free to get whatever treatment from whatever doctor for whatever ails him and that has always been the case.

So long as he is willing to throw away his livelihood, or get what he feels is unnecessary life-altering surgery. The situation is more complex than full-stop on many sides.

Edited October 22, 2021 by dudacek

[LabattBlue]

John also had a choice to sign his name to a contract which gave the Sabres control over his medical treatment options.  

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Thanks, that helps me understand. It's not so much this particular segment, more an overall frustration with the way this has been reported. I will say the bold was not what i heard in this segment at all. I heard Elliotte telling his listeners one good reason (the Risto trade) why the Sabres have not yet moved him.

Which was an effort to tell part of the Sabres side of the story.

 

Jack Eichel is free to get whatever treatment from whatever doctor for whatever ails him and that has always been the case.

So long as he is willing to throw away his livelihood, or get what he feels is unnecessary life-altering surgery. The situation is more complex than full-stop on many sides.

Agree entirely it is very complex. But the idea that Eichel’s healthcare is being “held hostage” by the Sabres is absurd. He has a choices, difficult though they may be. And If Eichel is being held hostage by the situation, then so are the Sabres. 

[Andrew Amerk]

Pretty ugly situation all around. 

The sad irony is that if Eichel had followed the medical recommendations 7 months ago, he would’ve been tradable and already playing again with another team by now. All parties would’ve been happier. 

Instead, everyone has to wait until someone comes along that is willing to fulfill not only the Sabres wishes, but ALSO Eichel’s wishes. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by The Ghost of NS

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I mostly agree.

Someone wants to get a certain surgery to fix their injured neck.  Their employer, says, “No, sorry, you can’t get the surgery that you think is best.  Our doctors don’t think it’s best and our insurance just wouldn’t cover it.”

I understand why it’s happening, but Sabres organization doesn’t exactly come out on the moral high ground.

I knew I’d get steamrolled for it (this is a Sabres fan message board, we’re all fans), and what Dark said in response is a good retort, but it’s just a nasty situation that the Sabres have both the power, control and ability to end.

It’s long been time for the Sabres to move on. I completely understand wanting to get the absolute best return but as long as there are reasonable deals (unclear if there are) the team should accept less and move on. It’s morally right by Jack, the team and the league. At the end of the day, this is absolutely going to cost the Sabres a lot of respect and recognition among players in the league. Is the cost of dragging this on worth the difference of a trade return available now vs what you’re demanding? You better hope so.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Jack Eichel is free to get whatever treatment from whatever doctor for whatever ails him and that has always been the case.

So long as he is willing to throw away his livelihood, or get what he feels is unnecessary life-altering surgery. The situation is more complex than full-stop on many sides.

I think the bolded is overstating the matter.  If he voids his contract, but the surgery works, he will still make a very handsome living playing hockey.  And if it doesn’t work, his inability to play hockey for a living will not be the result of anything the Sabres did.  

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

This is obnoxious.

Until you stop using obnoxious language towards posters you should not be commenting on language by other posters.

[Curt]

40 minutes ago, The Ghost of NS said:

Pretty ugly situation all around. 

The sad irony is that if Eichel had followed the medical recommendations 7 months ago, he would’ve been tradable and already playing again with another team by now. All parties would’ve been happier. 

Instead, everyone has to wait until someone comes along that is willing to fulfill not only the Sabres wishes, but ALSO Eichel’s wishes. 

Maybe, but 50 year old Eichel might not be happier when he is recovering from his 4th spinal fusion surgery.

Just offering a plausible alternative view, that might be along the lines of what Eichel is thinking.

[Andrew Amerk]

6 minutes ago, Curt said:

Maybe, but 50 year old Eichel might not be happier when he is recovering from his 4th spinal fusion surgery.

Just offering a plausible alternative view, that might be along the lines of what Eichel is thinking.

I’m aware, but in that scenario, not only does Eichel want to get his preferred surgery, AND keep his guaranteed money, AND get traded to a team that will accommodate all of that while assuming significant risk. 

As many have said, he CAN get the surgery he wants anytime, and hasn’t. He can file a grievance but hasn’t. If anything, he’s more of the jackass here. 

[kas23]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

What do you mean, “not exact?” If the insurance company won’t cover it, they won’t cover it, just as many other insurance companies don’t cover cervical ADR, either. That’s as exact as it gets imo. 

As you point out, Eichel can get his preferred surgery any time he likes but I’m not sure he’s willing to suffer the legal ramifications to do so or else he would have done it a while ago. 

I believe the Sabres are the holders of the policy that insures them against financial loss in case of injury. It’s not a health insurance policy, so they aren’t opting not to cover the surgery. I don’t know the details, but I imagine that purchasing such a policy is not compulsory, but comes with stipulations. Type of surgery is likely one of them. If the Sabres allow him to have any surgery, the Sabres will be in breach of contract with the insurance company and their policy will likely be cancelled. In this case, Terry would not receive any money from them in case of a injury. Now, if this is a single policy insuring all of the Sabres players (rather than contract by contract), a breach of this policy simply wouldn’t be possible, as it would be financial suicide. 

[Marvin]

58 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I knew I’d get steamrolled for it (this is a Sabres fan message board, we’re all fans), and what Dark said in response is a good retort, but it’s just a nasty situation that the Sabres have both the power, control and ability to end.

It’s long been time for the Sabres to move on. I completely understand wanting to get the absolute best return but as long as there are reasonable deals (unclear if there are) the team should accept less and move on. It’s morally right by Jack, the team and the league. At the end of the day, this is absolutely going to cost the Sabres a lot of respect and recognition among players in the league. Is the cost of dragging this on worth the difference of a trade return available now vs what you’re demanding? You better hope so.

My position has absolutely nothing to do with me being a Sabres fan and I categorically reject your insinuation.

Your position is that the Sabres should take all the risk in a trade or in a surgery to just end the situation.  My actuarial training screams bloody murder at me for that statistically reckless position.  Moreover, every insurer for Pegula's companies had better have told him that his insurance costs would skyrocket if he OK-ed the surgery.  That does not even count that he would legally be on the hook for every neck issue Eichel has for the rest of his life.

I empathise with Eichel.  My health insurance forces me to pay the entirety of a drug my doctor and I find superior to their recommended one because they don't get a kickback to have it in their formulary.  That's $10 a pill.  And I assumed the risk.  That's life.

Even with the empathy, as a practical matter, I think that the Sabres must stay the course and live with the consequences.

[Flashsabre]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I knew I’d get steamrolled for it (this is a Sabres fan message board, we’re all fans), and what Dark said in response is a good retort, but it’s just a nasty situation that the Sabres have both the power, control and ability to end.

It’s long been time for the Sabres to move on. I completely understand wanting to get the absolute best return but as long as there are reasonable deals (unclear if there are) the team should accept less and move on. It’s morally right by Jack, the team and the league. At the end of the day, this is absolutely going to cost the Sabres a lot of respect and recognition among players in the league. Is the cost of dragging this on worth the difference of a trade return available now vs what you’re demanding? You better hope so.

So the Sabres asking their player to get the safe, doctor approved surgery instead of the more dangerous, non doctor approved surgery is going to cost them goodwill with players?  
 

If my kids want to play in the middle of the street my consideration isn’t whether other kids will think I’m cool or not when I tell my children to get out of the street for their safety.

 

This falls on Jack. If he would have gotten the fusion surgery back when this began he would be back and this mess never would have happened.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Flashsabre

[SabresVet]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of NS said:

I’m aware, but in that scenario, not only does Eichel want to get his preferred surgery, AND keep his guaranteed money, AND get traded to a team that will accommodate all of that while assuming significant risk. 

As many have said, he CAN get the surgery he wants anytime, and hasn’t. He can file a grievance but hasn’t. If anything, he’s more of the jackass here. 

Perish the thought a 24 year old man might be thinking longer than a few months forward like the average fan is.  Even if ADR doesn’t work, he can get the fusion. Put yourself in the man’s shoes…this is a life decision.  I guarantee you’d consider options if the “doctor approved” surgery would require going under the knife regularly for perhaps decades to come. 

4 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

So the Sabres asking their player to get the safe, doctor approved surgery instead of the more dangerous, non doctor approved surgery is going to cost them goodwill with players?  
 

If my kids want to play in the middle of the street my consideration isn’t whether other kids will think I’m cool or not when I tell my children to get out of the street for their safety.

 

This falls on Jack. If he would have gotten the fusion surgery back when this began he would be back and this mess never would have happened.

Doctor approved? Kids in the street comparison? Talk about some major false equivalence. See above. 

[Andrew Amerk]

21 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

Perish the thought a 24 year old man might be thinking longer than a few months forward like the average fan is.  Even if ADR doesn’t work, he can get the fusion. Put yourself in the man’s shoes…this is a life decision.  I guarantee you’d consider options if the “doctor approved” surgery would require going under the knife regularly for perhaps decades to come. 

I am not disagreeing with any of this. 

Again, he is free to get the surgery he wants at any time. He just doesn’t want to give up the money. He also wants to be traded as well. He wants it all. 

So, which is more important? Your long term health, or money? If, for him, it was health, he would’ve went and got his surgery 5-7 months ago. 

 

[Hoss]

44 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

My position has absolutely nothing to do with me being a Sabres fan and I categorically reject your insinuation.

Your position is that the Sabres should take all the risk in a trade or in a surgery to just end the situation.  My actuarial training screams bloody murder at me for that statistically reckless position.  Moreover, every insurer for Pegula's companies had better have told him that his insurance costs would skyrocket if he OK-ed the surgery.  That does not even count that he would legally be on the hook for every neck issue Eichel has for the rest of his life.

I empathise with Eichel.  My health insurance forces me to pay the entirety of a drug my doctor and I find superior to their recommended one because they don't get a kickback to have it in their formulary.  That's $10 a pill.  And I assumed the risk.  That's life.

Even with the empathy, as a practical matter, I think that the Sabres must stay the course and live with the consequences.

Your position will always have to do with you being a fan. It doesn’t mean your position is right and mine is wrong. My position will also always have to do with my being a fan. Our experiences always shape our positions.

But I also never advocated for trading him just to end the situation. Read it again. I said they should do it as long as there is a reasonable offer on the table and there may not be. The Sabres could actually be thinking the exact same way I am and still not have what they view as a reasonable offer to execute.

37 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

So the Sabres asking their player to get the safe, doctor approved surgery instead of the more dangerous, non doctor approved surgery is going to cost them goodwill with players?  
 

If my kids want to play in the middle of the street my consideration isn’t whether other kids will think I’m cool or not when I tell my children to get out of the street for their safety.

 

This falls on Jack. If he would have gotten the fusion surgery back when this began he would be back and this mess never would have happened.

Jack’s surgery is doctor approved. This is all garbage straw man.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Hoss

[Flashsabre]

17 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Your position will always have to do with you being a fan. It doesn’t mean your position is right and mine is wrong. My position will also always have to do with my being a fan. Our experiences always shape our positions.

But I also never advocated for trading him just to end the situation. Read it again. I said they should do it as long as there is a reasonable offer on the table and there may not be. The Sabres could actually be thinking the exact same way I am and still not have what they view as a reasonable offer to execute.

Jack’s surgery is doctor approved. This is all garbage straw man.

The Sabres doctors won’t approve it. Jack and his team are scrambling trying to find doctors to approve it for his situation to present to the Sabres.  The reporting has been that a lot of the NHL teams and their medical staff aren’t comfortable with it.

your argument is that Sabres will lose goodwill over this when they are relying on medical opinions which think Jack’s option is dangerous.  They are looking out for what is best for their player.

[Hoss]

13 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

The Sabres doctors won’t approve it. Jack and his team are scrambling trying to find doctors to approve it for his situation to present to the Sabres.  The reporting has been that a lot of the NHL teams and their medical staff aren’t comfortable with it.

your argument is that Sabres will lose goodwill over this when they are relying on medical opinions which think Jack’s option is dangerous.  They are looking out for what is best for their player.

It’s pretty clear they’ve lost goodwill.

[PerreaultForever]

The espn+ guys talked about this situation far too much tonight. Adams really needs to get this over and done with or it will leak back into the "new culture" . 

[Flashsabre]

3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

It’s pretty clear they’ve lost goodwill.

Who cares?  They are not in the wrong. If they build a winning team players will come.

[Andrew Amerk]

57 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Your position will always have to do with you being a fan. It doesn’t mean your position is right and mine is wrong. My position will also always have to do with my being a fan. Our experiences always shape our positions.

But I also never advocated for trading him just to end the situation. Read it again. I said they should do it as long as there is a reasonable offer on the table and there may not be. The Sabres could actually be thinking the exact same way I am and still not have what they view as a reasonable offer to execute.

Jack’s surgery is doctor approved. This is all garbage straw man.

Jack’s preferred surgery is doctor approved? 

By which Sabres medical expert?

[SabresVet]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of NS said:

I am not disagreeing with any of this. 

Again, he is free to get the surgery he wants at any time. He just doesn’t want to give up the money. He also wants to be traded as well. He wants it all. 

So, which is more important? Your long term health, or money? If, for him, it was health, he would’ve went and got his surgery 5-7 months ago. 

This is ripe even for a message board where nuanced subjects are boiled down into mutually exclusive arguments like you have.  No one's claimed this is about either his health OR money other than you.

The information operations campaign has really succeeded with some fans...who still act like Jack kicked their dog every day for the last 5 months.