Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[darksabre]

I also want to add that I expect the Sabres have no interest in helping Jack make a mockery of the CBA. The only way Jack gets the ADR as a Sabre is if an agreement can be arrived at that respects the framework of the CBA. 

[K-9]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Lot of ifs there, but it is my hoped-for ending as well.

I just wish I saw more signs that Adams is actively working toward this resolution.

You listed several ifs as well. I just added one more. 
 

Adams’s hands are tied. He simply does not have the authority to overrule the team doctors. It would help if more people, especially in the hockey media world tried to understand that as well. 
 

If Jack had agreed to the ACDF surgery after the 12 week rehab period didn’t work, he’d be halfway into his recovery by now and on target for a December return to the ice. Ah, what could have been.

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I also want to add that I expect the Sabres have no interest in helping Jack make a mockery of the CBA. The only way Jack gets the ADR as a Sabre is if an agreement can be arrived at that respects the framework of the CBA. 

That is not an insignificant factor in all this. As I mentioned previously, the constrictive nature of the CBA has played a role throughout.
 

Another aspect totally out of KA’s hands I might add.

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

That is not an insignificant factor in all this. As I mentioned previously, the constrictive nature of the CBA has played a role throughout.
 

Another aspect totally out of KA’s hands I might add.

Yup.

I suspect the league and the NHLPA are trying to figure out a way to let Jack have the ADR that he wants in a way that is acceptable to the Sabres and Jack, and that doesn't make the rest of the league owners and players furious.
 

[nfreeman]

23 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

We still hold his rights if we void his  contract 

What is this based on?

 

32 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's quite simple, if he passes a physical (post ADR) and team doctors clear him to play, then the risk shifts back to the Sabres.

 

I don't think the Sabres would agree to this, nor should they.  There is no way to know whether a solid check in, say, Eichel's 12th game post-ADR would screw up his back irreparably.

Right now, 100% of the risk of an ADR is on Eichel.  I don't think the Sabres are interested in taking any of that risk.

 

16 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

disagree.  If the ADR is a success and he passes a physical, I believe they would clear him to play.   

That said, they would healthy scratch until a trade can be worked out.   

I don't think other GMs would give up a KA-acceptable package for him without seeing him play.

 

17 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Or, “If I wait long enough, Jack will get an agreed upon surgery of some type, the rehab goes well and he’s cleared to play, Jack returns to form, and teams will line up to make legitimate offers for a player of his caliber. I got time.”

I think this is probably the way KA is thinking, and more particularly, I think he's thinking that the surgery will be fusion.

 

Separately, while I see the appeal of an agreement between Jack and the Sabres that changes the current situation, I am skeptical that it will happen.

From the Sabres' perspective, there is no reason for them to agree to an ADR, even if Jack assumes all of the economic risk.  As matters stand currently, if Jack wants to play again, he needs to have the fusion surgery.  The most likely outcome, if he has that surgery, is that he plays well enough to make him tradable for a good package.  The ADR, OTOH, represents a great unknown.  There is no reason for the Sabres to move from the likelihood of a good trade package in a fusion scenario to a great unknown.

From the NHL's perspective, I don't think the league is interested in supporting an outcome in which a team's position is worsened simply because a player wants a different operation than the one the team wants, especially if the CBA's medical dispute resolution process would favor the team (which would almost certainly be the case here if Jack initiated that process).

So I think that leaves us watching as KA simply waits out Jack.

 

[Ruff Around The Edges]

The Sabres will not receive what they want until they allow interested teams to see Eichel's medical records.

But from the outside, it looks like the Sabres are closely guarding this information because there might be something in there that greatly decreases Jack's value.

Nothing will change until that information is made available.

[Weave]

I’m gonna go out on a limb. (Not really)

Jacks value is permanently diminished.  Too many roadblocks to the surgery he wants.  I don’t see a path where he elects the surgery the Sabres want.  In either case there is risk (immediate and longer term) sufficient enough to deflate his trade value anyway.  And there is a likelihood due to the above that he never sets foot on Sabre ice again to demonstrate his health in game situations.

Best case is the stalemate results in the neck resolving on its own and Jack skates on his own for other teams in time for a trade next offseason.  Worst case he gets whatever surgery and he doesn’t come back 100%.  Best case still contains risk of “what if” and teams will offer value accordingly and worst case is a guy who never sees 19-20 performance again and carries risk and is valued accordingly.

We may be fortunate to get an ROR level return.  The neck injury badly scuttled any plan to use the return for Jack to speed up the rebuild.

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I’m gonna go out on a limb. (Not really)

Jacks value is permanently diminished.  Too many roadblocks to the surgery he wants.  I don’t see a path where he elects the surgery the Sabres want.  In either case there is risk (immediate and longer term) sufficient enough to deflate his trade value anyway.  And there is a likelihood due to the above that he never sets foot on Sabre ice again to demonstrate his health in game situations.

Best case is the stalemate results in the neck resolving on its own and Jack skates on his own for other teams in time for a trade next offseason.  Worst case he gets whatever surgery and he doesn’t come back 100%.  Best case still contains risk of “what if” and teams will offer value accordingly and worst case is a guy who never sees 19-20 performance again and carries risk and is valued accordingly.

We may be fortunate to get an ROR level return.  The neck injury badly scuttled any plan to use the return for Jack to speed up the rebuild.

Yup.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the end result of this process is that the league and the NHLPA come back to Jack and his agent and say "sorry guys, we can't make this work" and his only option is fusion, retire, or get suspended without pay by the Sabres for the remaining length of his contract.

He's very much stuck. I don't envy him. His entire career is in jeopardy.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

We still hold his rights if we void his  contract 

Is this true?  The Sabres would still hold Eichel’s rights after voiding his contract?

[Norcal]

30 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

The Sabres will not receive what they want until they allow interested teams to see Eichel's medical records.

But from the outside, it looks like the Sabres are closely guarding this information because there might be something in there that greatly decreases Jack's value.

Nothing will change until that information is made available.

Good thing this is a speculation thread

[Buffalonill]

52 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What is this based on?

 

 

I don't think the Sabres would agree to this, nor should they.  There is no way to know whether a solid check in, say, Eichel's 12th game post-ADR would screw up his back irreparably.

Right now, 100% of the risk of an ADR is on Eichel.  I don't think the Sabres are interested in taking any of that risk.

 

I don't think other GMs would give up a KA-acceptable package for him without seeing him play.

 

I think this is probably the way KA is thinking, and more particularly, I think he's thinking that the surgery will be fusion.

 

Separately, while I see the appeal of an agreement between Jack and the Sabres that changes the current situation, I am skeptical that it will happen.

From the Sabres' perspective, there is no reason for them to agree to an ADR, even if Jack assumes all of the economic risk.  As matters stand currently, if Jack wants to play again, he needs to have the fusion surgery.  The most likely outcome, if he has that surgery, is that he plays well enough to make him tradable for a good package.  The ADR, OTOH, represents a great unknown.  There is no reason for the Sabres to move from the likelihood of a good trade package in a fusion scenario to a great unknown.

From the NHL's perspective, I don't think the league is interested in supporting an outcome in which a team's position is worsened simply because a player wants a different operation than the one the team wants, especially if the CBA's medical dispute resolution process would favor the team (which would almost certainly be the case here if Jack initiated that process).

So I think that leaves us watching as KA simply waits out Jack.

 

The CBA His contract money is voided but the term stands as he’s in breech of contract

[nfreeman]

3 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

The CBA His contract money is voided but the term stands as he’s in breech of contract

So you're saying that if Jack has ADR surgery without the Sabres' consent, the CBA says specifically that the Sabres don't have to pay him but they continue to control his rights?

I think that's probably right, but I haven't read that anywhere.

[Buffalonill]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

So you're saying that if Jack has ADR surgery without the Sabres' consent, the CBA says specifically that the Sabres don't have to pay him but they continue to control his rights?

I think that's probably right, but I haven't read that anywhere.

Thats correct thats the punishment and that's why he hasn't done anything stupid . 

 

 

[darksabre]

9 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

So you're saying that if Jack has ADR surgery without the Sabres' consent, the CBA says specifically that the Sabres don't have to pay him but they continue to control his rights?

I think that's probably right, but I haven't read that anywhere.

It's not very clear, but the section on termination of the SPC via waivers explicitly states that the player becomes a UFA, whereas the section he Sabres would use to terminate his SPC for getting the ADR surgery doesn't make any indication that the club would give up their signing rights to the player. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

He's got literally nothing for Jack now, as opposed to your version of nothing.

His plan seems to be "if I wait long enough some GM will pay a 'healthy Eichel' price for a 'broken' Eichel."

Or "If I wait long enough, this man will agree to a major surgery he clearly doesn't want."

 

You are portraying the GM's stance on this situation as being whimsical. It's not. He is basing his position on the most appropriate surgery on the best medical advice he could find. Jack's preferred surgical procedure is an outlier procedure and not recommended by the majority of medical people in the field. The GM is not out to get Jack or use him as a foil to demonstrate to the hockey world that he is a tough GM who is not going to be taken advantage of by those in the business. If that was his motivation for dealing with this complex issue it would be self-defeating. 

Jack has options if he wants to exercise them. But he is not willing to do so at his financial risk. If Jack feels so strongly about this particular procedure then he should simply get it and assume the financial risk if it doesn't work out as well as expected. 

I have no animosity toward Jack. This injury has sidelined him most of last year, and there is a good chance that not only could he be sidelined for all of this year but also there is a chance that his career can be in serious jeopardy. However, even understanding why Jack feels as he does the one person I'm not going to criticize is the person leading the hockey operation who is following the best medical advice he for this type of injury. I will say it again: I have no problem with the way KA has handled this situation. 

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are portraying the GM's stance on this situation as being whimsical. It's not. He is basing his position on the most appropriate surgery on the best medical advice he could find. Jack's preferred surgical procedure is an outlier procedure and not recommended by the majority of medical people in the field. The GM is not out to get Jack or use him as a foil to demonstrate to the hockey world that he is a tough GM who is not going to be taken advantage of by those in the business. If that was his motivation for dealing with this complex issue it would be self-defeating. 

Jack has options if he wants to exercise them. But he is not willing to do so at his financial risk. If Jack feels so strongly about this particular procedure then he should simply get it and assume the financial risk if it doesn't work out as well as expected. 

I have no animosity toward Jack. This injury has sidelined him most of last year, and there is a good chance that not only could he be sidelined for all of this year but also there is a chance that his career can be in serious jeopardy. However, even understanding why Jack feels as he does the one person I'm not going to criticize is the person leading the hockey operation who is following the best medical advice he for this type of injury. I will say it again: I have no problem with the way KA has handled this situation. 

Well, that makes total sense since very, very little of this situation is KA’s to handle in the first place. As I’ve repeated numerous times, he doesn’t have the authority to overrule the medical course recommended by team doctors.

Maybe Jack could consult with Kris Letang about the ACDF surgery to allay his concerns a bit. Letang seems to have recovered quite nicely after his surgery.

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

They wouldn't clear him. No chance. The only way it happens is if they come to an agreement ahead of time, which is what the lawyers are for. 

If he passes his physical post-ADR they'll let him play a few games to show he's healthy, then scratch him until a trade happens.

 

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I also want to add that I expect the Sabres have no interest in helping Jack make a mockery of the CBA. The only way Jack gets the ADR as a Sabre is if an agreement can be arrived at that respects the framework of the CBA. 

One thing is for sure... during the next round of CBA negotiations, this conundrum will be addressed in some manner.

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

There is no way to know whether a solid check in, say, Eichel's 12th game post-ADR would screw up his back irreparably.

Right now, 100% of the risk of an ADR is on Eichel.  I don't think the Sabres are interested in taking any of that risk.

 

I don't think other GMs would give up a KA-acceptable package for him without seeing him play.

 

I think this is probably the way KA is thinking, and more particularly, I think he's thinking that the surgery will be fusion.

 

Separately, while I see the appeal of an agreement between Jack and the Sabres that changes the current situation, I am skeptical that it will happen.

From the Sabres' perspective, there is no reason for them to agree to an ADR, even if Jack assumes all of the economic risk.  As matters stand currently, if Jack wants to play again, he needs to have the fusion surgery.  The most likely outcome, if he has that surgery, is that he plays well enough to make him tradable for a good package.  The ADR, OTOH, represents a great unknown.  There is no reason for the Sabres to move from the likelihood of a good trade package in a fusion scenario to a great unknown.

From the NHL's perspective, I don't think the league is interested in supporting an outcome in which a team's position is worsened simply because a player wants a different operation than the one the team wants, especially if the CBA's medical dispute resolution process would favor the team (which would almost certainly be the case here if Jack initiated that process).

So I think that leaves us watching as KA simply waits out Jack.

 

If I'm the player I would give it at least a year to heal on it's own before opting for potentially career ending surgery.     I suspect that's where we end up.

[Doohicksie]

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Now if the surgery the sabres want fails, he still is compensated in his contract because the team agreed to it. If Jack gets his own surgery and the sabres don't approve of it, it seems like a sticking point is Jack wants the sabres to approve of that because if they do and the surgery fails he still guaranteed his contract. From the sabres point of view that doesn't make sense nor does it for most other teams... Why?

Because the insurance company likely is the entity approving the surgery or not.  If the team approves it without the insurance company's consent, then the insurance won't cover Jack's salary in the future.  It's all about the $.

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

The lack of a trade may not be on Adams or him asking too much. It might be about which surgery he gets, how it's going to pay for his contract if it fails regarding insurance, and who was going to take on that risk... Jack, Buffalo, or any other team that makes a deal for him.

Yep that's exactly it.

[COSabreFan]

6 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Well, that makes total sense since very, very little of this situation is KA’s to handle in the first place. As I’ve repeated numerous times, he doesn’t have the authority to overrule the medical course recommended by team doctors.

Maybe Jack could consult with Kris Letang about the ACDF surgery to allay his concerns a bit. Letang seems to have recovered quite nicely after his surgery.

If he can’t overrule this, it might help to publicly say so.  Something like, “I understand Jacks position, but I don’t have the authority to make it happen.  It’s out of my hands.”

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Well, that makes total sense since very, very little of this situation is KA’s to handle in the first place. As I’ve repeated numerous times, he doesn’t have the authority to overrule the medical course recommended by team doctors.

Maybe Jack could consult with Kris Letang about the ACDF surgery to allay his concerns a bit. Letang seems to have recovered quite nicely after his surgery.

Even if he has the authority to overrule the recommendations by the team doctors and outside consultants it wouldn't be a wise thing to do. It's not very difficult to understand why Jack prefers his favored procedure. But that doesn't mean that it would be the right medical approach. The irony is that as the months pass by he would have been back on the ice sooner if a procedure would have been done months ago. As time goes by and as this saga continues he is putting in jeopardy the ability to be ready for the start of the next season. 

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Even if he has the authority to overrule the recommendations by the team doctors and outside consultants it wouldn't be a wise thing to do. It's not very difficult to understand why Jack prefers his favored procedure. But that doesn't mean that it would be the right medical approach. The irony is that as the months pass by he would have been back on the ice sooner if a procedure would have been done months ago. As time goes by and as this saga continues he is putting in jeopardy the ability to be ready for the start of the next season. 

He absolute has the authority but why would he assume the risk. If he does that, the team is liable for a procedure that the doctors said no on. 

[darksabre]

33 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

If he passes his physical post-ADR they'll let him play a few games to show he's healthy, then scratch him until a trade happens.

 

No. They won't. Because if they do, then it would be a tacit admission that they now accept the risk of the ADR procedure. Which they never will.

If Jack gets the ADR surgery, his contract will be terminated before he's out of the operating room. The team doctors will never look at him. And his NHL career will be over until his contract with the Sabres is up.

[JohnC]

19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He absolute has the authority but why would he assume the risk. If he does that, the team is liable for a procedure that the doctors said no on. 

I agree he has the authority. The point I was making, and maybe clumsily stated, is whether he has the authority or not it would be unwise to go against the medical judgment/s of experts in the field. 

[French Collection]

Here is a curveball.

If he has surgery and is ready just in time for the Olympics, who’s insurance covers him during that tournament?

I thought there was special insurance paid for by the IOC and the IIHF to cover guys.

Playing well in the Olympics would raise his trade value without having to dress for the Sabres.

[PromoTheRobot]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

He's got literally nothing for Jack now, as opposed to your version of nothing.

His plan seems to be "if I wait long enough some GM will pay a 'healthy Eichel' price for a 'broken' Eichel."

Or "If I wait long enough, this man will agree to a major surgery he clearly doesn't want."

 

So which nothing do you prefer? The one that doesn't help us, or the one that doesn't help us but helps another team and Eichel?