Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[Pimlach]

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The Neanderthal era of hockey is long gone. Thankfully, fighting for the sake of fighting is mostly nonexistent. As you point out what you should want out of your players is hard hitting and play. The goon hockey of that Punch era won't and shouldn't be tolerated in this era of skill, speed and toughness. I'm aware that I am in the minority on this issue but if I had it my way anyone who instigates a fight would be suspended 10 games for a first time offense, suspended 20 games for a second offense and then banished from the league for a year for a third time offense. It's dangerous and its stupid. If you want to see some contrived fighting it would be better to go to a Wrestlemania  match.  

In the era I am speaking of,  they really did not just fight for the sake of fighting.  That is an unfair description.   But fighting was part of the game and it was driven by the intensity of the players on the ice - not by stupid scripted fights by players that could not play.  Those players came later in the late 80’s when each team curiously signed a goon or two that couldn’t even play hockey but was on the roster to fight and protect star players.  In the 60’s and the 70’s players labeled as fighters were also real hockey players, with very few exceptions.  Some great and talented players were guys that fought.  Don’t broad brush that era as Neanderthal.  Gordie Howe just might fire a puck straight at your helmets-less head. 
 

In my opinion, today’s regular season games, while mostly devoid of hitting and fighting, can sometimes be boring.  There are too many teams, too many mediocre players, and the stars players are spread too thin.   There are not even 32 true game dominating #1 centers for the 32 teams.  I watch it because I love hockey, but it is not as entertaining to me until the playoffs.  Then they start hitting a lot more and the games get much better.   
 

Today the skill is high.  The skating is better. The conditioning is way better,  The goaltenders are better because they are much bigger, they wear huge equipment, and they play without fear of injury.   The scripted fights by inconsequential players are gone.   

[Andrew Amerk]

32 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

In the era I am speaking of,  they really did not just fight for the sake of fighting.  That is an unfair description.   But fighting was part of the game and it was driven by the intensity of the players on the ice - not by stupid scripted fights by players that could not play.  Those players came later in the late 80’s when each team curiously signed a goon or two that couldn’t even play hockey but was on the roster to fight and protect star players.  In the 60’s and the 70’s players labeled as fighters were also real hockey players, with very few exceptions.  Some great and talented players were guys that fought.  Don’t broad brush that era as Neanderthal.  Gordie Howe just might fire a puck straight at your helmets-less head. 
 

In my opinion, today’s regular season games, while mostly devoid of hitting and fighting, can sometimes be boring.  There are too many teams, too many mediocre players, and the stars players are spread too thin.   There are not even 32 true game dominating #1 centers for the 32 teams.  I watch it because I love hockey, but it is not as entertaining to me until the playoffs.  Then they start hitting a lot more and the games get much better.   
 

Today the skill is high.  The skating is better. The conditioning is way better,  The goaltenders are better because they are much bigger, they wear huge equipment, and they play without fear of injury.   The scripted fights by inconsequential players are gone.   

The 90’s gave birth to some great “power forwards” who could score and play physical and fight. Cam Neely, Mike Ricci, Kevin Stevens, Bob Probert come to mind among many others. Some of those players were my favorites growing up, because they had such an amazing blend of talent. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

In the era I am speaking of,  they really did not just fight for the sake of fighting.  That is an unfair description.   But fighting was part of the game and it was driven by the intensity of the players on the ice - not by stupid scripted fights by players that could not play.  Those players came later in the late 80’s when each team curiously signed a goon or two that couldn’t even play hockey but was on the roster to fight and protect star players.  In the 60’s and the 70’s players labeled as fighters were also real hockey players, with very few exceptions.  Some great and talented players were guys that fought.  Don’t broad brush that era as Neanderthal.  Gordie Howe just might fire a puck straight at your helmets-less head. 
 

In my opinion, today’s regular season games, while mostly devoid of hitting and fighting, can sometimes be boring.  There are too many teams, too many mediocre players, and the stars players are spread too thin.   There are not even 32 true game dominating #1 centers for the 32 teams.  I watch it because I love hockey, but it is not as entertaining to me until the playoffs.  Then they start hitting a lot more and the games get much better.   
 

Today the skill is high.  The skating is better. The conditioning is way better,  The goaltenders are better because they are much bigger, they wear huge equipment, and they play without fear of injury.   The scripted fights by inconsequential players are gone.   

I'll take this ear over the prior eras. Your last paragraph aptly points out why I have the position that I do. 

When you refer to the Gordie Howe era you looking back more than a half century ago. As time passes by things change and for the most part for the better. As I said before my preference is a minority view: Fighting should not be part of the game. It's archaic and goes against the spirit of player safety. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by JohnC

[Curt]

22 hours ago, JohnC said:

Everything you say is about the past. What if the situation changes and there is a changing of attitude from the player and the organization? Those who act as if all the fault of this deteriorated relationship is due to the player are not accounting for the half generation of dysfunction coming from this befuddled organization. How could it not be understood why player/s would want to escape such a losing and chaotic situation?

What I object to is this mischaracterization of Jack as if he is a bad guy and a cancer in the room. Nothing is further from the truth. He gets along with his teammates. What you haven't heard during this extended interlude is any of his teammates anonymously criticizing him. That is telling. Has he been the best captain? No. But there is a legitimate question as to why a young player should have been bestowed with that responsibility when he wasn't ready for it. Again, another one of the organization's long list of mistakes. 

It is more likely than not that when he gets healthy he will be dealt. And if dealt it would be a blunder to trade him unless there is a maximum return  The point I'm making is that it would be wise to keep the retention option open. 

None of his teammates have anonymously criticized him, but hasn’t one of his (ex)teammates openly criticized him?

JS Dea was not complimentary.

[Derrico]

11 hours ago, drnkirishone said:

Because his behavior is not what a captain should be doing. I want more qualities besides talented and point producing in a captain

Another example would be joe Thornton. But I think they are the exceptions.

Didn’t this happen to Ovie as well?  Then went on to win the cup.

[Buffalonill]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

None of his teammates have anonymously criticized him, but hasn’t one of his (ex)teammates openly criticized him?

JS Dea was not complimentary.

So we're going to trust a ahler? Got it .

 

 

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

So we're going to trust a ahler? Got it .

 

 

 

Your communication style is *****.

[LabattBlue]

Oh Johnny…come out come out wherever you are.  It’s time to see the doctor.  He won’t hurt you, and if you are a good boy, he will give you a sucker on your way out. 😂 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

None of his teammates have anonymously criticized him, but hasn’t one of his (ex)teammates openly criticized him?

JS Dea was not complimentary.

Gionta talks about the locker room in Buffalo. It was not complimentary.  The mix of young Jack and Sam, with “vets” like ROR, KANE, Bogo was bad chemistry. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

None of his teammates have anonymously criticized him, but hasn’t one of his (ex)teammates openly criticized him?

JS Dea was not complimentary.

So what! One ex-teammate criticized him. Not every high profiler player, especially on a losing team, is going to be beloved. In the real world of the locker-room there are factions within the room, as there are in every work place setting. I'm not suggesting that Jack was a perfect teammate or captain. He had flaws (like everyone else) that related to being an intense player who wanted to win on a losing and bottom-feeding team. He showed his emotions when frustrated because he cared. That intolerance for losing shouldn't be an attribute to skewer him for. On the contrary that attitude should have been exhibited even more so from other players.

You might remember in a game against Toronto at home when the visitor fans were taking over the arena when their team seemed to control the play. Jack's response was to make a dynamic play that resulted in a  goal. For a short time he silenced the boisterous visiting crowd. Whatever faults he has I'll take that unbridled passion over an attitude of resignation. 

As I have repeatedly stated I'm not against trading him if the return is substantial. But it seems to me that people are wanting to dispatch him for pennies on the dollar because they resent how he has handled this very challenging situation. @Thorny or someone else some time ago put up a link cataloging Jack's goals . The number of dynamic plays was stunning. Jack hasn't played for some time. Sometimes we forget how good he is.  

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Gionta talks about the locker room in Buffalo. It was not complimentary.  The mix of young Jack and Sam, with “vets” like ROR, KANE, Bogo was bad chemistry. 

This criticism is important.  He actually has a Cup ring, as Robin Lehner pointed out.  What he said matters more because he implied they needed to grow up a bit.  ROR clearly did.  The jury has no information on the others.

[Thorner]

59 minutes ago, JohnC said:

So what! One ex-teammate criticized him. Not every high profiler player, especially on a losing team, is going to be beloved. In the real world of the locker-room there are factions within the room, as there are in every work place setting. I'm not suggesting that Jack was a perfect teammate or captain. He had flaws (like everyone else) that related to being an intense player who wanted to win on a losing and bottom-feeding team. He showed his emotions when frustrated because he cared. That intolerance for losing shouldn't be an attribute to skewer him for. On the contrary that attitude should have been exhibited even more so from other players.

You might remember in a game against Toronto at home when the visitor fans were taking over the arena when their team seemed to control the play. Jack's response was to make a dynamic play that resulted in a  goal. For a short time he silenced the boisterous visiting crowd. Whatever faults he has I'll take that unbridled passion over an attitude of resignation. 

As I have repeatedly stated I'm not against trading him if the return is substantial. But it seems to me that people are wanting to dispatch him for pennies on the dollar because they resent how he has handled this very challenging situation. @Thorny or someone else some time ago put up a link cataloging Jack's goals . The number of dynamic plays was stunning. Jack hasn't played for some time. Sometimes we forget how good he is.  

Ya, there's a pretty strong common denominator with these good players we keep shipping out. The Ryan O'Reillys, the Jack Eichels and the Sam Reinharts: from interviews given they all appear to have "lost their love of the game" playing here. Fans seem to be responding much the same way Star Wars fans respond when a non-fan rips rips Phantom Menace: "HEY now, WE can torch it, it's different coming from you". The frustration the majority of fans feel and exhibit towards the organization isn't something those same fans can accept seeing from a professional athlete on said team. They take it personally. 
 

[bob_sauve28]

I wonder how long Jack will be in Buffalo for. Will he just show up, fail a physical and go home? 

 

Maybe he passes the physical! That would be interesting. I'd love to have him ready to skate on opening night. 

[Marvin]

47 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I wonder how long Jack will be in Buffalo for. Will he just show up, fail a physical and go home? 

 

Maybe he passes the physical! That would be interesting. I'd love to have him ready to skate on opening night. 

Part of me wonders if excelling in the pre-season would be enough to get someone to pony up an acceptable return.

[bob_sauve28]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Part of me wonders if excelling in the pre-season would be enough to get someone to pony up an acceptable return.

It would simply be amazing if he was ready to play. There would be some questions someone would have to answer 

[Curt]

3 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

So we're going to trust a ahler? Got it .

 

He was a teammate of Eichel’s.  His impression of Eichel is negative.  He said so publicly.  These are facts.

It doesn’t mean that Eichel is a garbage person, but I have no reason to doubt that Dea is telling the truth about how he feels.

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Gionta talks about the locker room in Buffalo. It was not complimentary.  The mix of young Jack and Sam, with “vets” like ROR, KANE, Bogo was bad chemistry. 

Yeah, Gionta hasn’t said anything negative about Eichel specifically, that I know of.  It was more of a criticism of the locker room dynamics as a whole.  Although, I don’t recall him going out of his way to say that Eichel is a great guy in the room or anything.

It’s one small piece of information that can be fit into a larger puzzle to form a picture.

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

So what! One ex-teammate criticized him. Not every high profiler player, especially on a losing team, is going to be beloved. In the real world of the locker-room there are factions within the room, as there are in every work place setting. I'm not suggesting that Jack was a perfect teammate or captain. He had flaws (like everyone else) that related to being an intense player who wanted to win on a losing and bottom-feeding team. He showed his emotions when frustrated because he cared. That intolerance for losing shouldn't be an attribute to skewer him for. On the contrary that attitude should have been exhibited even more so from other players.

You might remember in a game against Toronto at home when the visitor fans were taking over the arena when their team seemed to control the play. Jack's response was to make a dynamic play that resulted in a  goal. For a short time he silenced the boisterous visiting crowd. Whatever faults he has I'll take that unbridled passion over an attitude of resignation. 

As I have repeatedly stated I'm not against trading him if the return is substantial. But it seems to me that people are wanting to dispatch him for pennies on the dollar because they resent how he has handled this very challenging situation. @Thorny or someone else some time ago put up a link cataloging Jack's goals . The number of dynamic plays was stunning. Jack hasn't played for some time. Sometimes we forget how good he is.  

So what!?!?!?

This is our conversation:

You: “What you haven't heard during this extended interlude is any of his teammates anonymously criticizing him. That is telling.”

Me: Well actually JS Dea did do exactly that.

You: “So what?  One ex-teammate criticized him.”

Do you not see how that’s kind of ridiculous?

This, in the super cautious and polite NHL where you hardly hear anyone say a bad word about anyone else.  It was an extremely unusual thing to hear one player say about another.

Anyway, you say that maybe Eichel is not beloved by his teammates, maybe there are different factions in the dressing room.  I think maybe you are right.  I think that’s a negative thing.  That’s all I’m saying.  No more, no less.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Curt

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, Curt said:

He was a teammate of Eichel’s.  His impression of Eichel is negative.  He said so publicly.  These are facts.

It doesn’t mean that Eichel is a garbage person, but I have no reason to doubt that Dea is telling the truth about how he feels.

Yeah, Gionta hasn’t said anything negative about Eichel specifically, that I know of.  It was more of a criticism of the locker room dynamics as a whole.  Although, I don’t recall him going out of his way to say that Eichel is a great guy in the room or anything.

It’s one small piece of information that can be fit into a larger puzzle to form a picture.

So what!?!?!?

This is our conversation:

You: “What you haven't heard during this extended interlude is any of his teammates anonymously criticizing him. That is telling.”

Me: Well actually JS Dea did do exactly that.

You: “So what?  One ex-teammate criticized him.”

Do you not see how that’s kind of ridiculous?

This, in the super cautious and polite NHL where you hardly hear anyone say a bad word about anyone else.  It was an extremely unusual thing to hear one player say about another.

Anyway, you say that maybe Eichel is not beloved by his teammates, maybe there are different factions in the dressing room.  I think maybe you are right.  I think that’s a negative thing.  That’s all I’m saying.  No more, no less.

That’s exactly the point (re: the bold). The scale is weighted so ridiculously that former coaches, teammates, accepted leaders like McCabe can come out with glowing comments on Jack but if we’re made aware of one guy who doesn’t like him, it’s “part of a larger puzzle”. 

Let’s just make sure to use all the pieces. The evidence here IMO doesn’t point to some sort of 50/50 split, either. The curve these guys have their character evaluated on though is quite steep. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Thorny

[Digger]

30 minutes ago, Curt said:

Yeah, Gionta hasn’t said anything negative about Eichel specifically, that I know of.  It was more of a criticism of the locker room dynamics as a whole.  Although, I don’t recall him going out of his way to say that Eichel is a great guy in the room or anything.

Yes I agree.  Gionta did not say anything specifically bad about Eichel but he did not say anything positive either other than that he was and is a talented player.  I think that Gionta not being able to say anything towards Eichel's character or leadership speaks volumes.

[Stoner]

I was going to type a snarky, "Mr. Ligerchev, tear down this wall!" But I've found the last few posts very interesting. Alas, they are really not on topic (unless the speculation is that Jack isn't a good leader, which I don't it is). Not to beat a dead horse, but having a mega-Eichel trade thread that turns into a mega-Eichel thread is not good. Lots of posters won't come into this thread, because of how useless it has been. So maybe the useful info on Jack's character could be split into a new thread.

Edited September 20, 2021 by PASabreFan

[Thorner]

Wait wait wait hold up - so one of the strongest arguments apparently for Jack being a poor influence in the room is Gionta “saying nothing”? 

We sure this isn’t just a case of people filling in an unknown with their already constructed narrative? 

Don’t really need to ask the question I suppose when I can just drop another mic:

“Lot of stuff came down yesterday, some unfair criticism his way,’’ Gionta said of Eichel. “He’s a great guy in the room, great teammate, he wants to do everything to win and he’s a young kid maturing. I think he feels a lot of the pressure for what he is, the face of the franchise at 19, 20 years old who is supposed to come in and revive the entire organization.“

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.democratandchronicle.com/amp/100740266

[Stoner]

23 hours ago, French Collection said:

My son’s U18 team motto this season is “fit in or f*** off”

I kind of like this message. Fit into the team culture, the way they play etc. But players' personalities can certainly not "fit in." Look no farther than one Dom Hasek. If you look at one of the best Sabres teams ever and one of the best Bills teams ever, there was clearly a Lincolnesque "Team of Rivals" tension that stirred up creative tension and ultimately production. The Bickering Bills and whatever we'd want to call the '97 Sabres eventually ended up in near-glory, and it wasn't because everyone held hands and sang Shout!/Celebrate-Celebrate-The-Tradition.

[K-9]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Gionta talks about the locker room in Buffalo. It was not complimentary.  The mix of young Jack and Sam, with “vets” like ROR, KANE, Bogo was bad chemistry. 

I found Gionta’s remarks very telling. He and Gorges tried to provide the right example in team leadership, but instead, the young guys rejected that and gravitated towards a group that never exhibited those traits to begin with. I’m sure Bogo and Kane showed them how to cut and snort a proper rail though. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I found Gionta’s remarks very telling. He and Gorges tried to provide the right example in team leadership, but instead, the young guys rejected that and gravitated towards a group that never exhibited those traits to begin with. I’m sure Bogo and Kane showed them how to cut and snort a proper rail though. 

I agree with everything in this post.

Except the completely unfounded and unneeded last sentence.  If you care to edit that out I will delete this post.

[K-9]

8 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I agree with everything in this post.

Except the completely unfounded and unneeded last sentence.  If you care to edit that out I will delete this post.

Depends on who you talk to in certain places, I guess. But to be clear, I’m not accusing Eichel or Reinhart of partaking, just gravitating towards veterans whom I often heard did. 

That last sentence speaks to the point about rejecting the leadership example set by Gianta and Gorges vs. the example accepted from others. And I put that failure completely on Tim Murray for surrounding that young talent with the likes of Bogo and Kane to begin with. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Depends on who you talk to in certain places, I guess. But to be clear, I’m not accusing Eichel or Reinhart of partaking, just gravitating towards veterans whom I often heard did. 

That last sentence speaks to the point about rejecting the leadership example set by Gianta and Gorges vs. the example accepted from others. And I put that failure completely on Tim Murray for surrounding that young talent with the likes of Bogo and Kane to begin with. 

I understand that.  My opinion is that you made your main point very clearly and very goodly (😎) and you didn't need the last sentence, which is hearsay at best.