Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[SJSabres Fan]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

With respect to Jack's NMC I don't give a dam about it. When the time comes for the clause to kick in it doesn't matter whether he refuses to go to a particular team. Because if that is the case then he is kept. 

The GM's obligation is to act in the team's interest. That takes primacy over the player's interest.  

Would that imply not taking a deal now?

[KC Scouts]

31 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

The first line of your post I think is the issue where a lot of arguments start here....

Many people don't think he is a 'generational' player.  Generational players dominate the game, change the course of the game, often winning several games with their effort alone. They are like  Crosby, Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, McDavid, Ovechkin.  Bobby Orr.

A slight step down from generational would be the likes of Austin Matthews, Nathan McKinnon, Jaromir Jagr, Peter Forsberg, John Tavares, Stamkos, Patrick Kane.

To many, Eichel is good/great, but maybe even a slight step down from the category above with Matthews and McKinnon in it.

Generational talent? MAYBE, but that doesn't mean it translate to being a generational player.  Football players like Sammy Watkins come to mind.  Unreal talent coming out of college....but in the pros it just translated to being a 'good' player, not a superstar.

Jack was thought to have 'near generational' or 'generational' talent when drafted, but he was only 18.  He has turned out to be a 'very good/great' player, but this far into his career (without doubt in the statistical prime), the best he has ever finished is 10th overall in points in any year.  An all Star? Yes. Top 25 player in the league? probably. Generational?  so far not even close.

Absolutely....we (Sabres and their fans) were sold the "Generational Talent" crap from the NHL. He wasn't / isn't

[Digger]

43 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

The first line of your post I think is the issue where a lot of arguments start here....

Many people don't think he is a 'generational' player.  Generational players dominate the game, change the course of the game, often winning several games with their effort alone. They are like  Crosby, Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, McDavid, Ovechkin.  Bobby Orr.

A slight step down from generational would be the likes of Austin Matthews, Nathan McKinnon, Jaromir Jagr, Peter Forsberg, John Tavares, Stamkos, Patrick Kane.

To many, Eichel is good/great, but maybe even a slight step down from the category above with Matthews and McKinnon in it.

Generational talent? MAYBE, but that doesn't mean it translate to being a generational player.  Football players like Sammy Watkins come to mind.  Unreal talent coming out of college....but in the pros it just translated to being a 'good' player, not a superstar.

Jack was thought to have 'near generational' or 'generational' talent when drafted, but he was only 18.  He has turned out to be a 'very good/great' player, but this far into his career (without doubt in the statistical prime), the best he has ever finished is 10th overall in points in any year.  An all Star? Yes. Top 25 player in the league? probably. Generational?  so far not even close.

Okay I won't argue the "generational" tag.  He was drafted with that potential and I would not argue that he has not met that level yet.  It could be argued that he hasn't earned a $10 million / yr contract yet too.

But if you go around the league team to team there's many teams that do not have anyone near as talented as Eichel as their 1st line center today.  It's rare that a team is able to draft and develop a player with Eichel's talent.  That means that there should be a market for Eichel and that the return should be fair.  He will recover and play well.  We will see but I still hope that there's a decent trade for him coming.  

[Radar]

35 minutes ago, Digger said:

Okay I won't argue the "generational" tag.  He was drafted with that potential and I would not argue that he has not met that level yet.  It could be argued that he hasn't earned a $10 million / yr contract yet too.

But if you go around the league team to team there's many teams that do not have anyone near as talented as Eichel as their 1st line center today.  It's rare that a team is able to draft and develop a player with Eichel's talent.  That means that there should be a market for Eichel and that the return should be fair.  He will recover and play well.  We will see but I still hope that there's a decent trade for him coming.  

Your speaking as the seller. Try to look at it objectively as the buyer. Without recovery from surgery or by rehab and playing at his past level his value, I think , is greatly decreased. If it wasn't for the relationship problems I'm sure we would not be looking at taking less at this time but I fear we're going to take much less than us fans like.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

Where does this conclusion come from?

The fact that no one credible has ever reported the issue could be career-threatening, the fact that Jack is currently actively playing pick-up hockey, and the fact that numerous teams have apparently been interested and continue to be interested and have apparently offered packages in excess of what we got in exchange for Ristolainen and Reinhart.

Edited August 4, 2021 by dudacek

[Radar]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The fact that no one credible has ever reported the issue could be career-threatening, the fact that Jack is currently actively playing pick-up hockey, and the fact that numerous teams are apparently been interested and continue to be interested and have apparently offered packages in excess of what we got in exchange for Ristolainen and Reinhart.

I would hope so. Even injured we should get more than we got for those other two but that's not saying much. Jack is injured and until he's healed and playing at paxt level we're going to sell low if we trade him just to be rid of this mess.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, SJSabres Fan said:

Would that imply not taking a deal now?

Absolutely. There needs to be an acceptable range of return. If that threshold isn't met then keep him until there are better opportunities. I have never deviated from that stance. 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, Digger said:

Okay I won't argue the "generational" tag.  He was drafted with that potential and I would not argue that he has not met that level yet.  It could be argued that he hasn't earned a $10 million / yr contract yet too.

But if you go around the league team to team there's many teams that do not have anyone near as talented as Eichel as their 1st line center today.  It's rare that a team is able to draft and develop a player with Eichel's talent.  That means that there should be a market for Eichel and that the return should be fair.  He will recover and play well.  We will see but I still hope that there's a decent trade for him coming.  

I won't disagree with you there.

I am one of the people that don't think he's generational, or anywhere close to and honestly. But I do agree with you that he is a talent and a good enough player at center that a lot of teams do not have someone of his level.

It's disappointing because this is becoming something that's annoying for most of us. The weather or not he wants to be here or not, or because of his injury, or for whatever reason this is dragging out. I think most of us just want a resolution to this already.

[kas23]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

With respect to Jack's NMC I don't give a dam about it. When the time comes for the clause to kick in it doesn't matter whether he refuses to go to a particular team. Because if that is the case then he is kept. 

The GM's obligation is to act in the team's interest. That takes primacy over the player's interest.  

If traded (keys words), the NMC caps whatever assets we would potentially receive though. If a GM of a bottom dweller offers us all the gold in the kingdom for Jack, all Jack has to say is no. Same goes for any other team that is not a perennial Cup contender. The true Cup contenders will know this and use it to their advantage. Plus, they are likely to already up against the cap, so the suiters will diminish considerably. 
 

The only recourse KA will have is to then keep him, which I guess is better than getting a bag of pucks and a conditional 3rd rounder from the Rags. Still, the NMC will diminish the possibility of getting a decent return if traded. If Jack proves himself to be back to his normal self over the next season, the offers will have to become much richer than what they are today. 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, kas23 said:

If traded (keys words), the NMC caps whatever assets we would potentially receive though. If a GM of a bottom dweller offers us all the gold in the kingdom for Jack, all Jack has to say is no. Same goes for any other team that is not a perennial Cup contender. The true Cup contenders will know this and use it to their advantage. Plus, they are likely to already up against the cap, so the suiters will diminish considerably. 
 

The only recourse KA will have is to then keep him, which I guess is better than getting a bag of pucks and a conditional 3rd rounder from the Rags. Still, the NMC will diminish the possibility of getting a decent return if traded. If Jack proves himself to be back to his normal self over the next season, the offers will have to become much richer than what they are today. 

I don't believe for a second that after wasting away another year in Buffalo, Jack is going quash any trade that will finally move him out of town. The guy has the patience of a three-year-old in a candy store and will be on a plane before he even hears the desitination.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, kas23 said:

If traded (keys words), the NMC caps whatever assets we would potentially receive though. If a GM of a bottom dweller offers us all the gold in the kingdom for Jack, all Jack has to say is no. Same goes for any other team that is not a perennial Cup contender. The true Cup contenders will know this and use it to their advantage. Plus, they are likely to already up against the cap, so the suiters will diminish considerably. 
 

The only recourse KA will have is to then keep him, which I guess is better than getting a bag of pucks and a conditional 3rd rounder from the Rags. Still, the NMC will diminish the possibility of getting a decent return if traded. If Jack proves himself to be back to his normal self over the next season, the offers will have to become much richer than what they are today. 

KA is driving the bus. If a future deal is declined by Jack when there are better offers then unless an offer arises to an acceptable return (no matter who is making the offer) then you keep him. No one is going to force the GM to make a deal that he doesn't want to make. 

[Hoss]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don't believe for a second that after wasting away another year in Buffalo, Jack is going quash any trade that will finally move him out of town. The guy has the patience of a three-year-old in a candy store and will be on a plane before he even hears the desitination.

I 100% think he will refuse trades to bad teams and cities he doesn’t want to be in. In fact, I think there’s no chance he goes to at least a third of the league. The NMC will lower the price and it’s clear Jack is going one way or the other.

[dudacek]

Does anyone think any of these players are currently on the table: Krebs, Zegras, Drysdale, McTavish, Rossi, Boldy, Kakko, Eklund, Kotkaniemi?

Do you think the Sabres are at a point where they should accept the 1st offer that includes one of these prospects, regardless of the adds?

[irregularly irregular]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

My general supposition is simple. Because of his health situation his trade value for now is diminished. The level of diminishment as I see it is greater than what you perceive it to be. And this is diminishment is reflected in the unwillingness of teams to come near to what the Sabre organization wants. With that realization I'm more willing than some are to lower the asking price. 

I'm on the opposite end of that discussion. I'm not lowering the ask by even one cent until there are more answers to a bunch of unanswered questions. 

The unknowns here are where exactly our boy Johnny is at with regards to 1) the injury 2) the recovery and rehabilitation of said injury as of today 3) the need for more rehab 4) the NEED  for surgical intervention 5) if surgery is needed (unavoidable for him to play hockey this upcoming season), then which surgery serves ALL PARTIES best. There are probably more questions beyond those, and I want to hear that any and all of those items have been addressed before any trade is made.

KA needs that information, as does Johnny and his agents, as do any of the GMs that have an interest in acquiring his services. All of this could be cleared up by this time next week if Eichel presents himself at the doctors office in Buffalo at 8am Monday morning and is ready for a day of testing and evaluation to determine what his CURRENT status is. Until those answers and the pathway(s) going forward are determined, KA needs to sit tight, wait for answers and not have another ROR trade shoved down his throat. 

 

[thewookie1]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Does anyone think any of these players are currently on the table: Krebs, Zegras, Drysdale, McTavish, Rossi, Boldy, Kakko, Eklund, Kotkaniemi?

Do you think the Sabres are at a point where they should accept the 1st offer that includes one of these prospects, regardless of the adds?

Some of them are very likely. 

The other pieces still matter to me. Regardless of Eichel’s injury you don’t trade a 1C under contract for 5 years for a prospect and random things. 

[Marvin]

5 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Some of them are very likely. 

The other pieces still matter to me. Regardless of Eichel’s injury you don’t trade a 1C under contract for 5 years for a prospect and random things. 

Because of the injury, I expect we will get more conditional magic beans than people here want and fewer concrete pieces as a result.

[thewookie1]

9 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Because of the injury, I expect we will get more conditional magic beans than people here want and fewer concrete pieces as a result.

Eventually someone will pony up a bit more, after all you can’t trade players under conditionals. 

[Curt]

25 minutes ago, irregularly irregular said:

I'm on the opposite end of that discussion. I'm not lowering the ask by even one cent until there are more answers to a bunch of unanswered questions. 

The unknowns here are where exactly our boy Johnny is at with regards to 1) the injury 2) the recovery and rehabilitation of said injury as of today 3) the need for more rehab 4) the NEED  for surgical intervention 5) if surgery is needed (unavoidable for him to play hockey this upcoming season), then which surgery serves ALL PARTIES best. There are probably more questions beyond those, and I want to hear that any and all of those items have been addressed before any trade is made.

KA needs that information, as does Johnny and his agents, as do any of the GMs that have an interest in acquiring his services. All of this could be cleared up by this time next week if Eichel presents himself at the doctors office in Buffalo at 8am Monday morning and is ready for a day of testing and evaluation to determine what his CURRENT status is. Until those answers and the pathway(s) going forward are determined, KA needs to sit tight, wait for answers and not have another ROR trade shoved down his throat. 

 

I feel pretty confident that this information is known to Eichel and Adams.  I would think that Eichel is being evaluated at regular intervals.

[Digger]

2 hours ago, Digger said:

Okay I won't argue the "generational" tag.  He was drafted with that potential and I would not argue that he has not met that level yet.  It could be argued that he hasn't earned a $10 million / yr contract yet too.

But if you go around the league team to team there's many teams that do not have anyone near as talented as Eichel as their 1st line center today.  It's rare that a team is able to draft and develop a player with Eichel's talent.  That means that there should be a market for Eichel and that the return should be fair.  He will recover and play well.  We will see but I still hope that there's a decent trade for him coming.  

 

1 hour ago, Radar said:

Your speaking as the seller. Try to look at it objectively as the buyer. Without recovery from surgery or by rehab and playing at his past level his value, I think , is greatly decreased. If it wasn't for the relationship problems I'm sure we would not be looking at taking less at this time but I fear we're going to take much less than us fans like.

From a buyer's perspective the other GM's have to look at what they have on their current roster and decide if Eichel makes them better and a contender within the 5 years that they would have him under their control.  All teams have medical staff that can assess the risk better than we can as fans and I have not heard anyone credible say that this is a career threatening injury.

I think that it's interesting to see how many of the fans on the board are now suggesting it's okay to sell low.  I understand the fatigue of the whole situation for sure.  I feel that too.

History is always an interesting perspective to me.  Consider if we had a more patient GM (and ownership for that matter) when we were deciding to trade Ryan O'Reilly.  Some would argue that we got the best that was available at the time with a deadline to payout his bonus that year.  I would argue that if we had held out and not made the trade St. Louis would not have won the cup that year.  If O'Reilly had returned to the Sabres that year we might be in a better place today.  I'm not suggesting Eichel comes back at this point but patience may still pay off and the GM that thinks he close to winning and doesn't make the trade for Eichel might wish that he had when he had the chance.

[Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Does anyone think any of these players are currently on the table: Krebs, Zegras, Drysdale, McTavish, Rossi, Boldy, Kakko, Eklund, Kotkaniemi?

Do you think the Sabres are at a point where they should accept the 1st offer that includes one of these prospects, regardless of the adds?

Besides Zegras and Rossi I really do think they are, none of these guys are at the level of Jack is right now.
They are prospects that might reach the NHL one day.  Its a gamble that has to go both ways.

Granted Kakko and Kotkaniemi already made the NHL but other than middle 6 ceiling have not shown much, so yeah they are in.
Zegras and Rossi are the two top 6 centers their management must gamble on, but still you are trading for Jack Eichel that will have a 100 point season soon.

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

Gentlemen -- I think these posts indicate a black-or-white view of his injury and its effect on other GMs' willingness to acquire him -- i.e. he's either seriously injured or he's not, he'll either regain his prior form or he won't, and he's either worth trading the farm for or he's not -- and I don't think that's the correct perspective here, nor do I think the comparisons to Seth Jones, McCabe, Tuch, etc are relevant.  Those guys either weren't injured or aren't being sold off at huge prices.

IMHO, we're in much more of a gray area.  The injury is without question a serious matter.  I think it's clearly the primary reason he hasn't been traded yet.  If he'd played a full season last year and had, say, 25-38-63 in 52 games, does anyone doubt that other teams would've ponied up rich packages to get him?

Even so, I think for many (admittedly not all) GMs, the injury, and now-almost-certain spinal surgery, aren't "NFW are we trading for this guy" barriers.  Those GMs are taking a perspective that is more "trading for this guy is risky; there's a decent chance he regains his MVP-contender form but also a decent chance he doesn't -- so I'll take the risk on his contract if our doctors and our owner sign off, but only if the price to acquire him isn't too high."  That's why Anaheim isn't delivering Zegras and the Rangers aren't delivering LaFreniere.

For you 2 guys and anyone else who disagrees that the injury is a major factor:  if you don't think it's the injury, then why hasn't he been traded yet?

Gentlemen you can't fight in here, this is the War Room.

[Cityo'Rasmii]

I find it hard to believe that his surgery options are "career threatening"...commentary welcomed

[PromoTheRobot]

12 hours ago, Cityo'Rasmii said:

I find it hard to believe that his surgery options are "career threatening"...commentary welcomed

Artificial disc replacement has not been done much in the US, mostly in Europe. Some athletes in high collision sports have had the procedure. No one in the NHL has had it. It's a procedure not without risk. It's also not known what happens a few months after the surgery and Jack gets his head driven into the boards.

I have Conformis knee implants. Two of them. I can walk with less pain than before. I can even skate and play low level hockey. But I can't run or jog with them. My goaltending career is definitely over.  I've taken bike rides and had my knees blow up. My point is artificial things aren't as good as your original equipment. So can an artificial disc act and feel as good as what you were born with?

The whole surgery discussion revolves around risk and who assumes it. Jack wants the Sabres to give him permission to get this surgery. The Sabres will be liable for Jack's contract should Jack not be able to play. According to Craig Rivet on the Instigators this morning, the Sabres have an insurance policy on players in case of catastrophic injury. That policy would be no longer cover the Sabres in Jack's case because this surgery is considered experimental.

So if you're in Adams' shoes, what's your call? It's likely Jack comes out of this okay but it's not guaranteed. Your staff doctors are telling you rest and rehab is preferred, and if surgery is needed, do a traditional fusion. All this for a player that hates your team and wants out...even though his antics are making that harder.

Edited August 5, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[SDS]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

The fact that no one credible has ever reported the issue could be career-threatening, the fact that Jack is currently actively playing pick-up hockey, and the fact that numerous teams have apparently been interested and continue to be interested and have apparently offered packages in excess of what we got in exchange for Ristolainen and Reinhart.

The people who are credible here absolutely don’t want to mention the words “career threatening“. Jack is not going to admit his career may be over and the Sabres sure as hell aren’t going to talk about his career being over.

Still, I would give up what either one of our other two players got for the possibility of Jack. I think the reward greatly out ways the risk. 

I think the risk of it being career threatening is not only real, but it is substantial or at least career threatening in the sense that he becomes a JAG and not the number 2 pick in the draft.

We are dealing with someone’s spine here. I encourage everyone who is actually interested in this to read about thesis procedure. You don’t just slip an artificial disk in, sew up the incision and pat him on the ass. The gap between vertebrae should be matched exactly, but the disks themselves only come in certain thicknesses and sizes. They also have teeth in which the bone needs to grow around so that the disk does not move and that process isn’t guaranteed. 

I think fans are greatly underestimating the risk this procedure holds.

[SJSabres Fan]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Absolutely. There needs to be an acceptable range of return. If that threshold isn't met then keep him until there are better opportunities. I have never deviated from that stance. 

I totally agree. I think Jack’s representatives overplayed their hand.  The Sabres losing out on Jack Eichel in 4 years should be inconsequential.  I think he should prepare to give his all to the Sabres or prepare to sit until the return is acceptable. And I think KA and the Sabres and us fans shouldn’t settle for less.