Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[grinreaper]

20 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes, but why have that issue hanging over KA’s head?

It's only a big deal if the Sabres want to get rid of Eichel. At this point in time they want to get rid of him because he's a distraction and he wants to leave. If he was invoking his NMC in the future then he only wants to leave under specific circumstances. In other words he's willing to stay if the trade isn't just so. The NMC then becomes a mostly empty threat. 

 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder. 

So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark. 

So, reasonably speaking, if Eichel has the value of Jones (he should have more) we should expect a minimum fair market return of:

• Jack Eichel for Othmann, Schneider, 2022 1st
• Jack Eichel for Wallstedt, Boldy, 2022 1st
• Jack Eichel for Perreault, Comtois, 2022 1st

I wonder if these are the kinds of offers currently on the table

[sabrefanday1]

Think there is little doubt KA would move Jack in a heartbeat if he was offered anything that he thought he could justify to the fans. Other teams have to be cautious not only of Jack's health but also they need to wonder if maybe he is a cancer or not a good "team" player. 

   And like a divorce,  nice things are said and all but truth be told the separation it will only get worse and nastier between the team and Jack. he clearly wants out and they clearly wish to move him but obviously they can;t give him away (although they came close with Sam). Risto was a complete fluke as Philly made a terrible trade and gave far too much which makes KA look like a genius, In reality I figured he'd get like maybe a 2nd or 3rd for Risto. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder. 

So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark. 

When Seth Jones was traded for a generous return he was healthy. The team that acquired him knew that next season he would be playing at the high level he had been playing at. That doesn't come close to resembling the Jack situation. As it stands there are no guarantees that Jack will play next year or ever return to his elite form. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by JohnC

[Mr. Allen]

One of the things that I think some people might be forgetting, (and I apologize if this has been brought up already) is that small market teams out there have almost zero chance of landing an elite player like Eichel, unless you get lucky to draft one.  More than likely, those type of players won’t be signing with you in free agency.  They are going to want big market exposure and the fame and fortune that comes with it.  
So this might be the only chance a team like Minnesota has to getting an elite player like Eichel.  

[sabrefanday1]

54 minutes ago, Mr. Allen said:

One of the things that I think some people might be forgetting, (and I apologize if this has been brought up already) is that small market teams out there have almost zero chance of landing an elite player like Eichel, unless you get lucky to draft one.  More than likely, those type of players won’t be signing with you in free agency.  They are going to want big market exposure and the fame and fortune that comes with it.  
So this might be the only chance a team like Minnesota has to getting an elite player like Eichel.  

agreed or the only chance Buffalo may get to have one too! Crazy to trade away talent such as Sam and/or Jack. I really hoped they'd just re-sign Sam and get Jack healthy and back playing and with proper NHL goal tending (which we still do not have) they may have been a pretty good team. Now there is no hope of that in the near future (if ever).  

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

When Seth Jones was traded for a generous return he was healthy. The team that acquired him knew that next season he would be playing at the high level he had been playing at. That doesn't come close to resembling the Jack situation. As it stands there are no guarantees that Jack will play next year or ever return to his elite form. 

Again, no one is saying this. Doctors, media, randos. Everyone is saying that Eichel will play next season which is why he wants surgery now so he misses no time. The difference is will he get artificial disc replacement or fusion surgery. The fusion surgery would have him miss about 1 month of the season. Literally no one is expecting Eichel to not play at all next year. Seth Jones is far less talented to the risk of getting Eichel, a top 10 center in the league is worth it compared to Jones. 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Again, no one is saying this. Doctors, media, randos. Everyone is saying that Eichel will play next season which is why he wants surgery now so he misses no time. The difference is will he get artificial disc replacement or fusion surgery. The fusion surgery would have him miss about 1 month of the season. Literally no one is expecting Eichel to not play at all next year. Seth Jones is far less talented to the risk of getting Eichel, a top 10 center in the league is worth it compared to Jones. 

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, Mr. Allen said:

One of the things that I think some people might be forgetting, (and I apologize if this has been brought up already) is that small market teams out there have almost zero chance of landing an elite player like Eichel, unless you get lucky to draft one.  More than likely, those type of players won’t be signing with you in free agency.  They are going to want big market exposure and the fame and fortune that comes with it.  
So this might be the only chance a team like Minnesota has to getting an elite player like Eichel.  

I'm not disagreeing with your point, but Minnesota isn't exactly small market.  I would say they are mid-market, knocking on the door of 'top 10 market'.  

Remember this is a team that attracted BOTH Zach Parise and Ryan Suter at about the same time when they were very desired players.

-Forbes Franchise value has them ranked in the top half of the NHL (mid teens). -In terms of Cities with NHL teams, they are 12th in terms of market size (top half for sure). -In terms of GDP produced by the region, they are also 12th.  In terms of TV ratings, that region is usually in the top 5 in the USA for the NHL, as that part of the country probably supports the NHL/Hockey as good as anywhere in the USA (right up there with Boston long term.)  Even their ownership group's wealth is in the Billions.  Depending on where you look (I have looked a few places), he is anywhere from the 8th to the 11th richest owner in the NHL with wealth above $4 billion.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by mjd1001

[Ruff Around The Edges]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

Internet posters (mostly from the Northeast meaning Boston NY etc) who's ammo is to talk down a player in hope that their team sharks that player for 30 cents on the dollar, and those internet posters will be the first ones after the deal to pump out their chest and brag how they 'stole' that player.

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

These surgeries do have a success rate. I have had two back surgeries (aware not exactly the same). A successful surgery for me is different than a successful surgery for a hockey player who plays professionally in a crash sport. The referencing to McCabe's, Ullmark's and Tuch's surgeries are not relatable to Jack's surgery. These aforementioned surgeries are procedures that are not uncommon in hockey. There is usually a standard rehab timetable. That's not the case with Jack's situation. As it stands there hasn't even been agreement in which is the most suitable surgery. And if the surgery he has works out there is no guarantee that even if he can get back on the ice, which I believe he will, will he be able to play at the level he did prior to his injury.  

 

[Stoner]

54 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Internet posters (mostly from the Northeast meaning Boston NY etc) who's ammo is to talk down a player in hope that their team sharks that player for 30 cents on the dollar, and those internet posters will be the first ones after the deal to pump out their chest and brag how they 'stole' that player.

Is this a thing? Do GMs and directors of professional scouting really go to message boards for intel?

[dudacek]

46 minutes ago, JohnC said:

These surgeries do have a success rate. I have had two back surgeries (aware not exactly the same). A successful surgery for me is different than a successful surgery for a hockey player who plays professionally in a crash sport. The referencing to McCabe's, Ullmark's and Tuch's surgeries are not relatable to Jack's surgery. These aforementioned surgeries are procedures that are not uncommon in hockey. There is usually a standard rehab timetable. That's not the case with Jack's situation. As it stands there hasn't even been agreement in which is the most suitable surgery. And if the surgery he has works out there is no guarantee that even if he can get back on the ice, which I believe he will, will he be able to play at the level he did prior to his injury.  

 

The only difference is that the surgery Jack wants has not been tried on an NHL player.

Jack wants that surgery, primarily, because he wants to accelerate his recovery time; it is a known factor 

Everything else in your post is based on the twin suppositions that Jack is getting the surgery he wants and the acquiring team is not comfortable with the risk - an extremely unlikely combination.

No team would be willing to trade for Jack Eichel and his $50 million contract under those circumstances, no matter the price, and they wouldn’t be making offers.

 

[Shootica]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Jack wants that surgery, primarily, because he wants to accelerate his recovery time; it is a known factor 

Should also add that ADR leads to a better long-term quality of life, as you keep your full range of motion.  I'm roughly Jack's age, and if I had a herniated cervical disc that would be the bigger motivating factor to me.

Agree with the rest, I just wanted to add that point.  Carry on!

[Shmuffalo]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder. 

So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark. 

Well, one, this is the ice rink, baby. Two... exactly.  We know where KA stands, not ... literally.   Im not exactly hopeful our return is the exact ask, but thought, other teams would cave first ... this Anti Eichel PR from Flounder and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Donatell[o] is fu--ing weird.

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Again, no one is saying this. Doctors, media, randos. Everyone is saying that Eichel will play next season which is why he wants surgery now so he misses no time. The difference is will he get artificial disc replacement or fusion surgery. The fusion surgery would have him miss about 1 month of the season. Literally no one is expecting Eichel to not play at all next year. Seth Jones is far less talented to the risk of getting Eichel, a top 10 center in the league is worth it compared to Jones. 

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.

Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.

Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.

Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.

Gentlemen -- I think these posts indicate a black-or-white view of his injury and its effect on other GMs' willingness to acquire him -- i.e. he's either seriously injured or he's not, he'll either regain his prior form or he won't, and he's either worth trading the farm for or he's not -- and I don't think that's the correct perspective here, nor do I think the comparisons to Seth Jones, McCabe, Tuch, etc are relevant.  Those guys either weren't injured or aren't being sold off at huge prices.

IMHO, we're in much more of a gray area.  The injury is without question a serious matter.  I think it's clearly the primary reason he hasn't been traded yet.  If he'd played a full season last year and had, say, 25-38-63 in 52 games, does anyone doubt that other teams would've ponied up rich packages to get him?

Even so, I think for many (admittedly not all) GMs, the injury, and now-almost-certain spinal surgery, aren't "NFW are we trading for this guy" barriers.  Those GMs are taking a perspective that is more "trading for this guy is risky; there's a decent chance he regains his MVP-contender form but also a decent chance he doesn't -- so I'll take the risk on his contract if our doctors and our owner sign off, but only if the price to acquire him isn't too high."  That's why Anaheim isn't delivering Zegras and the Rangers aren't delivering LaFreniere.

For you 2 guys and anyone else who disagrees that the injury is a major factor:  if you don't think it's the injury, then why hasn't he been traded yet?

[Shmuffalo]

8 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

Gentlemen -- I think these posts indicate a black-or-white view of his injury and its effect on other GMs' willingness to acquire him -- i.e. he's either seriously injured or he's not, he'll either regain his prior form or he won't, and he's either worth trading the farm for or he's not -- and I don't think that's the correct perspective here, nor do I think the comparisons to Seth Jones, McCabe, Tuch, etc are relevant.  Those guys either weren't injured or aren't being sold off at huge prices.

IMHO, we're in much more of a gray area.  The injury is without question a serious matter.  I think it's clearly the primary reason he hasn't been traded yet.  If he'd played a full season last year and had, say, 25-38-63 in 52 games, does anyone doubt that other teams would've ponied up rich packages to get him?

Even so, I think for many (admittedly not all) GMs, the injury, and now-almost-certain spinal surgery, aren't "NFW are we trading for this guy" barriers.  Those GMs are taking a perspective that is more "trading for this guy is risky; there's a decent chance he regains his MVP-contender form but also a decent chance he doesn't -- so I'll take the risk on his contract if our doctors and our owner sign off, but only if the price to acquire him isn't too high."  That's why Anaheim isn't delivering Zegras and the Rangers aren't delivering LaFreniere.

For you 2 guys and anyone else who disagrees that the injury is a major factor:  if you don't think it's the injury, then why hasn't he been traded yet?

100% percent (that's double percent) plays a factor; Also the prima-donna notion arose rather drastically, as well (not there weren't rumblings of that prior), but far more the former.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

The only difference is that the surgery Jack wants has not been tried on an NHL player.

Jack wants that surgery, primarily, because he wants to accelerate his recovery time; it is a known factor 

Everything else in your post is based on the twin suppositions that Jack is getting the surgery he wants and the acquiring team is not comfortable with the risk - an extremely unlikely combination.

No team would be willing to trade for Jack Eichel and his $50 million contract under those circumstances, no matter the price, and they wouldn’t be making offers.

 

My general supposition is simple. Because of his health situation his trade value for now is diminished. The level of diminishment as I see it is greater than what you perceive it to be. And this is diminishment is reflected in the unwillingness of teams to come near to what the Sabre organization wants. With that realization I'm more willing than some are to lower the asking price. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by JohnC

[SJSabres Fan]

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

My general supposition is simple. Because of his health situation his trade value for now is diminished. The level of diminishment as I see it is greater than what you perceive it to be. And this is diminishment is reflected in the unwillingness of teams to come near to what the Sabre organization wants. With that realization I'm more willing than some are to lower the asking price. 

I guess my question is as you lower the asking price, how important is the return in KA’s plan?  And does it get to the point where there’s not much difference in trading an injured Jack Eichel without a nmc vs a healthy Jack Eichel with a nmc. 

[Cheektorado]

I guess my biggest hope is that the Center the Sabres get in return helps Skinner regain his game.

That's all I got anymore.

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, SJSabres Fan said:

I guess my question is as you lower the asking price, how important is the return in KA’s plan?  And does it get to the point where there’s not much difference in trading an injured Jack Eichel without a nmc vs a healthy Jack Eichel with a nmc. 

With respect to Jack's NMC I don't give a dam about it. When the time comes for the clause to kick in it doesn't matter whether he refuses to go to a particular team. Because if that is the case then he is kept. 

The GM's obligation is to act in the team's interest. That takes primacy over the player's interest.  

[sabrefanday1]

At the end of the day we are talking about a generational player who put up some really good numbers on a pretty-bad team and clearly the very notion of giving him away for anything less then a major haul is absurd. Having said that, it is obvious that Jack don;t want to be here and it is also obvious KA don't want him here either. This surgery is tricky as we are talking about what may be career ending. There is no way any team is going to take a flyer on Jack until they know he wil play again, and up to his full potential. Thus, this may drag on for some time. Not a good situation for either, but I do think the Pegulas are embarrassing themselves  by how they are running the ship. Dump Sam then look to dump Jack? Great way to build a team. One thing for sure is no one is going to want to come play for Buffalo knowing that if you want to win you are criticized and basically called a "cancer". This truly is a really bad thing all-the-way around... 

[dudacek]

49 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

Gentlemen -- I think these posts indicate a black-or-white view of his injury and its effect on other GMs' willingness to acquire him -- i.e. he's either seriously injured or he's not, he'll either regain his prior form or he won't, and he's either worth trading the farm for or he's not -- and I don't think that's the correct perspective here, nor do I think the comparisons to Seth Jones, McCabe, Tuch, etc are relevant.  Those guys either weren't injured or aren't being sold off at huge prices.

IMHO, we're in much more of a gray area.  The injury is without question a serious matter.  I think it's clearly the primary reason he hasn't been traded yet.  If he'd played a full season last year and had, say, 25-38-63 in 52 games, does anyone doubt that other teams would've ponied up rich packages to get him?

Even so, I think for many (admittedly not all) GMs, the injury, and now-almost-certain spinal surgery, aren't "NFW are we trading for this guy" barriers.  Those GMs are taking a perspective that is more "trading for this guy is risky; there's a decent chance he regains his MVP-contender form but also a decent chance he doesn't -- so I'll take the risk on his contract if our doctors and our owner sign off, but only if the price to acquire him isn't too high."  That's why Anaheim isn't delivering Zegras and the Rangers aren't delivering LaFreniere.

For you 2 guys and anyone else who disagrees that the injury is a major factor:  if you don't think it's the injury, then why hasn't he been traded yet?

I may be mis-speaking for @LGR4GM, but I don't think either of us said the injury is non-factor.

We said Jack's injury is not being talked about as career-threatening. Fine distinction perhaps, but a real one in my mind.

There is definitely a chance the injury may inhibit Jack's career going forward, but the chances it ends it are small. And, in my view, that is closer to McCabe's knee and Ullmark's hip than you guys seem to think.

This is not a Pat Lafontaine concussion situation.

Edited August 4, 2021 by dudacek

[mjd1001]

27 minutes ago, sabrefanday1 said:

At the end of the day we are talking about a generational player who put up some really good numbers on a pretty-bad team and clearly the very notion of giving him away for anything less then a major haul is absurd.

The first line of your post I think is the issue where a lot of arguments start here....

Many people don't think he is a 'generational' player.  Generational players dominate the game, change the course of the game, often winning several games with their effort alone. They are like  Crosby, Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, McDavid, Ovechkin.  Bobby Orr.

A slight step down from generational would be the likes of Austin Matthews, Nathan McKinnon, Jaromir Jagr, Peter Forsberg, John Tavares, Stamkos, Patrick Kane.

To many, Eichel is good/great, but maybe even a slight step down from the category above with Matthews and McKinnon in it.

Generational talent? MAYBE, but that doesn't mean it translate to being a generational player.  Football players like Sammy Watkins come to mind.  Unreal talent coming out of college....but in the pros it just translated to being a 'good' player, not a superstar.

Jack was thought to have 'near generational' or 'generational' talent when drafted, but he was only 18.  He has turned out to be a 'very good/great' player, but this far into his career (without doubt in the statistical prime), the best he has ever finished is 10th overall in points in any year.  An all Star? Yes. Top 25 player in the league? probably. Generational?  so far not even close.

Edited August 4, 2021 by mjd1001

[SDS]

50 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I may be mis-speaking for @LGR4GM, but I don't think either of us said the injury is non-factor.

We said Jack's injury is not being talked about as career-threatening. Fine distinction perhaps, but a real one in my mind.

There is definitely a chance the injury may inhibit Jack's career going forward, but the chances it ends it are small. And, in my view, that is closer to McCabe's knee and Ullmark's hip than you guys seem to think.

This is not a Pat Lafontaine concussion situation.

Where does this conclusion come from?