Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[klos1963]

2 minutes ago, steveoath said:

Hypothetically, if jack does something that causes his contact to be void do we still hold his rights? Seems a sh1tty situation where he could conceivably void the contract and walk to whoever and we get no compensation. (Aside from being freed from from the cash commitment to him).

#idontunderstandhowthisworks 

I'm guessing legal arbitration on money issues, but I would think the sabres would retain his rights. It would be too easy to become a free agent and get out of a situation you are locked into.

Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

As @nfreeman (a lawyer, if I recall correctly) pointed out the statement did not say exactly what surgery the Sabre doctors had now said is needed.  Seems that they were very cleaver not to say what surgery.  Maybe the Sabres docs have said that a lesser proceedure may be warranted at this time if rest has not helped that much.  Apparently, there is a less risky proceedure than what John wants.

From what I've read since last night, it seems after the 12 week waiting period expired, the Sabres medical team approved of the fusion surgery, not disc replacement. Eichel team wants disc replacement. That's the hangup.

[bob_sauve28]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You risk getting nothing for a vital asset.

 

 

Is he an asset now? I'm not even sure. I'm moving him down to "potential asset"

[PromoTheRobot]

6 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

As @nfreeman (a lawyer, if I recall correctly) pointed out the statement did not say exactly what surgery the Sabre doctors had now said is needed.  Seems that they were very cleaver not to say what surgery.  Maybe the Sabres docs have said that a lesser proceedure may be warranted at this time if rest has not helped that much.  Apparently, there is a less risky proceedure than what John wants.

Having recently gotten new knees they're great but they're not the real thing. I can only imagine what a neck feels like.

4 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Is he an asset now? I'm not even sure. I'm moving him down to "potential asset"

He absolutely is.  

You realize what you're doing is talking yourself into taking less because you're panicked. So far Adams' is Kool Kevyn.

Edited July 31, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[bob_sauve28]

5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Having recently gotten new knees they're great but they're not the real thing. I can only imagine what a neck feels like.

He absolutely is.  

You realize what you're doing is talking yourself into taking less because you're panicked. So far Adams' is Kool Kevyn.

No, I'm thinking the guy is hurt, which he is, and might not play again. Can't trade him, he won't or can't play and there is a big chance (30% from what I have seen posted) his medical procedure will fail. I do hope you are right though.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

My 2 cents:

- The Agents' statement was pretty carefully worded.  It didn't say that the Sabres' docs had recommended the surgery that Jack wants -- only that they had determined that "a surgical procedure was required."  So I don't think the Sabres were ever on board with the disk replacement that Jack wants.

- It now seems pretty clear that Jack hasn't responded to rest/rehab and that some kind of surgery will be needed.  That means the risk has increased that he doesn't regain his previous form, and it makes other GMs less willing to spend big to acquire Jack.  This in turn means that if KA sticks to his guns a trade before the season starts is less likely.

- It does not sound like Jack has initiated the appeal procedure provided in the CBA.  I would guess that is because his agents think he would likely lose the appeal -- and once that happens, they will have zero rights to influence the medical process.  It would also hurt their ability to pressure the Sabres or any other team to let him have the surgery, because another adjudicator will have ruled against it.

- Jack still has no interest in taking the $50MM risk that the surgery fails.  This is all about him pushing the Sabres to take that risk.

- Bottom line is that Jack has zero real rights here and the agents are trying to use the media to pressure the Sabres into doing something that is against their interests.  This is what his agents should do, but there is no need for KA to give in.

Just quoting @nfreeman excellent post here, just so it doesn't drift to far down the rabbit hole as this thread will like get to several more hundred pages in the next few hours.

[Doohicksie]

18 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

This really is messed up. Can the Sabres just allow him to make his own decision? Assume the risk himself?

Not under his current contract, no.

[Doohicksie]

16 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Having recently gotten new knees they're great but they're not the real thing. I can only imagine what a neck feels like.

My wife just had a knee replaced in December.  And they cautioned her to avoid falling, physical contact, twisting, all that.  It's better and less painful than the knee she had but it's not original equipment quality.

9 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Just quoting @nfreeman excellent post here, just so it doesn't drift to far down the rabbit hole as this thread will like get to several more hundred pages in the next few hours.

Oh I bet SDS is thrilled this thread is running away.  Oh the site traffic!!!!  😄

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

His agent’s statement aside, I’m convinced team Eichel has NO desire to get traded at this point. They are playing the long game until his NMC kicks in and he has more control over who he is traded to. What else explains why team Eichel has deliberately been sabotaging his trade value the entire time? He’s gonna get the surgery, sit out the year, collect his 10 mil, and wait it out. 
 

Kevyn Adams has flaws as a GM, but his handling of the Eichel trade situation isn’t one of them. I’m glad he’s sticking to his guns on this issue. 
 

F Jack Eichel.  

I had not considered this possibility but boy would that be a wrench thrown in.

[Curt]

27 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

This really is messed up. Can the Sabres just allow him to make his own decision? Assume the risk himself?

Eichel can always make his own decision.  No one can stop him from having a surgery.  However, if he does so against orders from the Sabres medical staff, that could be grounds for voiding his contract, if the Sabres choose to do so.

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

I don't know, this doctor is pushing his own Agenda, I read that the Sabres doctors is one of the leading doctors in the USA when it comes to disc replacements and he said no to it.

In my  experience good doctors will always use surgery as a last resort, so If jack really wants this surgery he needs to sign a liability waiver clearing he sabres of any future problems that might occur from it.

I know the Sabres Doctor very well, I used to be one of the medical consultants on His Hospitalized Patients until I joined a different group.  

The Sabres and Jack agreed to a three month period of conservative treatment which ended around May 31st. Today is July 31st which puts Jack at 5 months of conservative treatment and Dr Prusmack mentioned He is still having pain and numbness at times on the Podcast. Couple that with the Jack’s Agents saying in an Email to John Wawrow that the Sabres went against their own medical staff’s recommendation in determining artificial disk replacement surgery was required it sounds like the Sabres want Him traded before a decision is made on surgery. 
 

It’s obvious no team is willing to pay the Sabres asking price for Eichel, how much of that is being driven by teams concern about His Neck and now His Availability for the start of next season is coming into doubt. 
 

At some point something has to give at some point, and perhaps telling Jack to proceed is the only option, unless they want to take a lesser return in trade, which is not ideal. 
 

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I believe that once a player waives their NMC it is for the entire contract; you can't do it a year at a time (which if I have that right was a brilliant move to get Skinner to waive his to expose him to the expansion draft).

I’m not positive if that is the case, I know that if he waives after 7/1/22 His New Team decides whether to honor it or not. Skinner waived His NMC for the sole purpose of the expansion draft and it is in effect once again. 
 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Brawndo

[kas23]

2 hours ago, darksabre said:

I disagree. The number one concern is his return as an asset. I think if they weren't worried about getting anything from him other than his gameplay they'd let him have the surgery. If it goes wrong then you LTIR his contract off the books and wash your hands clean of the thing. "We did what was right for Jack to get him on the ice to help the team win" would be the messaging, and Jack's team would never dispute it.

But they want to trade him. They want to get a return on the asset. So no surgery.

 

While placing Jack on LTIR would allow the Sabres to exceed the salary cap (by the amount of Jack’s salary), it doesn’t get the contract off the books. Terry will have to continue writing him checks unless the contract is voided. I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but doubt the Pegulas would like this outcome. 

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I know the Sabres Doctor very well, I used to be one of the medical consultants on His Hospitalized Patients until I joined a different group.  

The Sabres and Jack agreed to a three month period of conservative treatment which ended around May 31st. Today is July 31st which puts Jack at 5 months of conservative treatment and Dr Prusmack mentioned He is still having pain and numbness at times on the Podcast. Couple that with the Jack’s Agents saying in an Email to John Wawrow that the Sabres went against their own medical staff’s recommendation in determining artificial disk replacement surgery was required it sounds like the Sabres want Him traded before a decision is made on surgery. 
 

It’s obvious no team is willing to pay the Sabres asking price for Eichel, how much of that is being driven by teams concern about His Neck and now His Availability for the start of next season is coming into doubt. 
 

At some point something has to give at some point, and perhaps telling Jack to proceed is the only option, unless they want to take a lesser return in trade, which is not ideal. 
 

I’m not positive if that is the case, I know that if he waives after 7/1/22 His New Team decides whether to honor it or not. Skinner waived His NMC for the sole purpose of the expansion draft and it is in effect once again. 
 

 

At this point if a trade isn't coming in the next week, consult the doctors and go forward with a surgery option. This may cut against the grain of what I said earlier about waiting but I wouldn't trade Eichel for peanuts, I think I would risk the surgery before doing that. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

At this point if a trade isn't coming in the next week, consult the doctors and go forward with a surgery option. This may cut against the grain of what I said earlier about waiting but I wouldn't trade Eichel for peanuts, I think I would risk the surgery before doing that. 

Which surgery?  The high-risk one that John wants, or the less risky one that the Sabres medical staff seem to think is warranted at this time?

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Which surgery?  The high-risk one that John wants, or the less risky one that the Sabres medical staff seem to think is warranted at this time?

[Brawndo]

3 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Which surgery?  The high-risk one that John wants, or the less risky one that the Sabres medical staff seem to think is warranted at this time?

If the ADR fails, the next procedure will be the fusion surgery. Let Him start with the ADR as the recovery time is quicker.  Allow any interested teams to speak with Doctor Prusmack and go from there 

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

If the ADR fails, the next procedure will be the fusion surgery. Let Him start with the ADR as the recovery time is quicker.  Allow any interested teams to speak with Doctor Prusmack and go from there 

I defer to Brawndo on this.

[Crusader1969]

19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

At this point if a trade isn't coming in the next week, consult the doctors and go forward with a surgery option. This may cut against the grain of what I said earlier about waiting but I wouldn't trade Eichel for peanuts, I think I would risk the surgery before doing that. 

I agree.  Let him have the surgery. It’s likely going to be a success (at least in the short run). Show other teams he is healthy, get fair value.    
Make the future 1st round picks conditional on the number of games he plays 

 

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

I’m not positive if that is the case, I know that if he waives after 7/1/22 His New Team decides whether to honor it or not. Skinner waived His NMC for the sole purpose of the expansion draft and it is in effect once again. 

The NHL closed the waiving of NTC/NMC loophole so the clauses stay in place when they arrive to their new team. @Doohickie

[Cal Naughton Jr]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Just quoting @nfreeman excellent post here, just so it doesn't drift to far down the rabbit hole as this thread will like get to several more hundred pages in the next few hours.

That is an excellent post that I probably wouldn’t have seen. I would also add to the bottom line that Jack really wants out of Buffalo

[Sabres Fan in NS]

49 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

If the ADR fails, the next procedure will be the fusion surgery. Let Him start with the ADR as the recovery time is quicker.  Allow any interested teams to speak with Doctor Prusmack and go from there 

I'm confused.  Not the first time.

I thought the ADR was the more risky surgery and the fusion was less risky?

Then again, I'm not a doctor and here I am questioning one ...

[SDS]

17 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I'm confused.  Not the first time.

I thought the ADR was the more risky surgery and the fusion was less risky?

Then again, I'm not a doctor and here I am questioning one ...

You have to define what risk is. ADR is performed all the time in Europe. Fusion is the one that’s performed all the time here. each vertebrae segment is designed to provide a certain amount of angular movement. If you fuse two joints together then you can no longer get any angular movement between the two and if you want the same range of motion then you will be stressing the two joints on the outside of the joint you just fused. That leads to those discs wearing out sooner. That can lead to those joints being fused at a later date. Some will say that fusion is actually very risky due to the adjacent disc deterioration that occurs due to the strain of extended range of motion.

ADR, although less common, is designed to maintain your freedom of motion thereby sparing the adjacent joints. Many of the manufacturers however have decided to forgo getting FDA approval and just marketing their product in Europe. Many many Americans go to Europe to get this done.

what we don’t know is what are the chances this disk is appropriate for the level of physical activity of an NHL hockey player. So, that’s a different risk.

[Digger]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

At this point if a trade isn't coming in the next week, consult the doctors and go forward with a surgery option. This may cut against the grain of what I said earlier about waiting but I wouldn't trade Eichel for peanuts, I think I would risk the surgery before doing that. 

I would be asking other team's (serious trade partners) for their opinions before going ahead with the surgery.  The surgery itself is not the main risk, it's being cleared to play and then with potential injury once he gets playing again.  I would not want teams saying they are out because of the surgery treatment chosen.  If it's a big deal for the Sabres it may be a big deal for other teams committing to paying his salary.

If other teams are not concerned, then I agree let him have the surgery he wants and get back into game shape but keep him out of the Sabres lineup until the trade happens.  It's not ideal.

Medical arbitration was mentioned earlier.  Maybe that's a smart move by the Sabres to proceed with.  I would assume either the team or player could initiate that if it's an option in the CBA.

[Hoss]

1 minute ago, Digger said:

I would be asking other team's (serious trade partners) for their opinions before going ahead with the surgery.  The surgery itself is not the main risk, it's being cleared to play and then with potential injury once he gets playing again.  I would not want teams saying they are out because of the surgery treatment chosen.  If it's a big deal for the Sabres it may be a big deal for other teams committing to paying his salary.

If other teams are not concerned, then I agree let him have the surgery he wants and get back into game shape but keep him out of the Sabres lineup until the trade happens.  It's not ideal.

Medical arbitration was mentioned earlier.  Maybe that's a smart move by the Sabres to proceed with.  I would assume either the team or player could initiate that if it's an option in the CBA.

You can't let other teams dictate a massive surgery decision like this for your star player. Their option doesn't matter. If they want a say in his surgery they can trade for him.

[ubkev]

 

[Digger]

Just now, Hoss said:

You can't let other teams dictate a massive surgery decision like this for your star player. Their option doesn't matter. If they want a say in his surgery they can trade for him.

Agreed.  The point I was trying to make was to see if other teams are as concerned as the Sabres are about having a player play with an artificial disc.  (Maybe a stupid idea).

I'm still thinking that a medical arbitration is the best course of action.