Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 The way Eichel is being overvalued is hilarious. He is a flawed player with an injury history. He has missed roughly 80 games in his career. I loved the pick when it happened, that's why it's so disappointing. Sabres will be lucky to get 2 top prospects and a 1st round pick. That's probably if they eat money. 2
Drag0nDan Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: The way Eichel is being overvalued is hilarious. He is a flawed player with an injury history. He has missed roughly 80 games in his career. I loved the pick when it happened, that's why it's so disappointing. Sabres will be lucky to get 2 top prospects and a 1st round pick. That's probably if they eat money. They have to eat money - thats a given. I would think 1 top prospect, 1 young NHL player, 1 cap dump, and assorted picks. Depending on the level of the first 2 you could argue 2 firsts. From the rangers maybe Miller, Chytil, Strome/zibanejad, and their 2021 first? I'd see about them throwing in Georgiev too. Now i get it - there isn't like... a kaako or Lafreniere stud in there - but you get a 1C for a year (or to get more at the deadline), a middle 6 forward, a 6-5 young defenseman who looked solid in his age 20 season (more of a known commodity than a power at this point). If you can pull Georgiev even better since this team desperately needs a goalie. Edited July 15, 2021 by Drag0nDan
mjd1001 Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 19 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: The way Eichel is being overvalued is hilarious. He is a flawed player with an injury history. He has missed roughly 80 games in his career. I loved the pick when it happened, that's why it's so disappointing. Sabres will be lucky to get 2 top prospects and a 1st round pick. That's probably if they eat money. I kind of agree with you. There are many people posting here who way overvalue what his return would be. On the other hand when you read stories from out of town those people are undervaluing him, many media members and fan boards wanting to throw a couple second or third line players at the sabres and a late first round draft pick. The real value is someplace in the middle. Many people overvalue something that is on their team but the truth is the very best year Eichel had he still was barely in the top 10 in scoring..... he has had numerous injuries....and his current injury is a major concern. Now might something really strange happen like the Sabres get what a lot of fans on this forum asking for? Unlikely, but it could happen. However, people on this board may have to come to grips with the fact that he's not the mega superstar many think he is and the return in his trade will be good but not off the charts great. The... "If you don't get the huge offer in return just keep him" crowd likes to say that, but the direction of team, what the GM wants and what Jack wants himself... That might not be the reality. 2
Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 People are throwing names around like: Zegras, Drysdale, Dach, Byfield, Turcotte, Kaprizov, Lafranierre, Miller, Fox, Lundkvist, no way Sabres get that level of prospect back.
Randall Flagg Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 22 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: The way Eichel is being overvalued is hilarious. He is a flawed player with an injury history. He has missed roughly 80 games in his career. I loved the pick when it happened, that's why it's so disappointing. Sabres will be lucky to get 2 top prospects and a 1st round pick. That's probably if they eat money. At least you gave something tangible for us to compare after the fact. But it depends on what you mean by 2 top prospects and a 1st round pick. Are you saying we'd be lucky to get Zegras, Drysdale, and 3OA? Because I certainly agree. But maybe you're saying we'd be lucky to get Boldy, Khovanov, and pick 25. And I certainly think we'll do better than that. Who is overvaluing Eichel, and by how much? Do people think he is a perfect hockey player, who doesn't get injured?
Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: At least you gave something tangible for us to compare after the fact. But it depends on what you mean by 2 top prospects and a 1st round pick. Are you saying we'd be lucky to get Zegras, Drysdale, and 3OA? Because I certainly agree. But maybe you're saying we'd be lucky to get Boldy, Khovanov, and pick 25. And I certainly think we'll do better than that. Who is overvaluing Eichel, and by how much? Do people think he is a perfect hockey player, who doesn't get injured? I'm not saying you but a very high percentage of people are overvaluing Eichel on this forum. I think your Minny trade is dead on maybe 22 OA instead. From the Rangers maybe Shesterkin, Jones, 16 OA.
LGR4GM Posted July 15, 2021 Author Report Posted July 15, 2021 Just now, Ogelthorpe said: I'm not saying you but a very high percentage of people are overvaluing Eichel on this forum. I think your Minny trade is dead on maybe 22 OA instead. From the Rangers maybe Shesterkin, Jones, 16 OA. If those are the offers you just keep Eichel. 3 1
Randall Flagg Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 1 minute ago, Ogelthorpe said: I'm not saying you but a very high percentage of people are overvaluing Eichel on this forum. I think your Minny trade is dead on maybe 22 OA instead. From the Rangers maybe Shesterkin, Jones, 16 OA. Interesting. I definitely think we'll be able to pull more than that. But we will see!
WildCard Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 (edited) I think the big thing is, people don't want/think it's necessary to trade Jack. Meaning if they are going to trade him, we better get the world for him. Otherwise, simply keep him. It's not that we're overvaluing him, just that it needs to be a lot to feel comfortable moving him. Edited July 15, 2021 by WildCard 6 2
Randall Flagg Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 Just now, WildCard said: I think the big thing it, people don't want/think it's necessary to trade Jack. Meaning if they are going to trade him, we better get the world for him. Otherwise, simply keep him. It's not that we're overvaluing him, just that it needs to be a lot to feel comfortable moving him. We applied the same logic to ROR - don't move him unless you get something obviously more valuable than he is. I laid out like 50 trade examples, I remember it clearly. We certainly hit on that one. This situation is a little different, because back then, moving the team in the direction of "okay, it's year 4 of jack and sam coming up, time to tear team down to nothing, and have it remain in that state indefinitely" was very obviously insane. Now, we have already gone through that, and made the current situation untenable for all parties. This trade probably happens BECAUSE of that one. But still, you don't move him unless you get an impressive offer, there's no reason to trade him for a pile of disappointment. Luckily, that's not going to happen
Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: If those are the offers you just keep Eichel. And let him destroy the locker room more than it is?
Randall Flagg Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: And let him destroy the locker room more than it is? Do we have evidence that Jack Eichel, destroyer of locker rooms, is really the cause of our woes? 4
DarthEbriate Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: And let him destroy the locker room more than it is? I don't think the locker room is all that bad. HCRK was the cancer as far as I could tell. Once he was gone, and Hall sat down, that team looked interested and engaged. The only disappointing thing is we didn't get to see Eichel in that rejuvenated environment. Eichel could return in Granato's attacking offense and thrive. Yes, the kids would all need to learn how to play defense/playoff-style hockey when the time comes. But simply getting a real hockey coach and, and-and-and two NHL-caliber goalies might be enough to see Eichel reach new levels. And drive up his trade value before the NMC next season. Or not trade at all. It's all still possible. 2
Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: Do we have evidence that Jack Eichel, destroyer of locker rooms, is really the cause of our woes? For years the locker room dysfunction has been reported. Can you say he is not? Those reports coincide with him being here.
WildCard Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 1 minute ago, Ogelthorpe said: For years the locker room dysfunction has been reported. Can you say he is not? Those reports coincide with him being here. They also coincide with Risto, 3 GMs, 4 head coaches, 2 tanks, a 10 year playoff drought, and 4 last in the league finishes. 5 1
Randall Flagg Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: For years the locker room dysfunction has been reported. Can you say he is not? Those reports coincide with him being here. They also coincided with ROR being here at the time of that trade - in fact, all of the talk was explicitly about him being a clump of cancerous tumor cells. It turned out that our team actually just had a lot of bad hockey players, and it still does. How did it work out that time? The rumors are weaker, less confident, and more vague this time - surely they are correct, so let's go through another embarrassing bout of character assassination! It didn't burn us badly last time or anything! Not all critique of eichel is what I describe above, nor is the desire to trade him, which I actually have. The make believe stuff drives me up a wall though. "You can't prove he's not!" Is not an argument 1
Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, WildCard said: They also coincide with Risto, 3 GMs, 4 head coaches, 2 tanks, a 10 year playoff drought, and 4 last in the league finishes. All good points but you are still not disproving mine.
Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: They also coincided with ROR being here at the time of that trade - in fact, all of the talk was explicitly about him being a clump of cancerous tumor cells. It turned out that our team actually just had a lot of bad hockey players, and it still does. How did it work out that time? The rumors are weaker, less confident, and more vague this time - surely they are correct, so let's go through another embarrassing bout of character assassination! It didn't burn us badly last time or anything! Not all critique of eichel is what I describe above, nor is the desire to trade him, which I actually have. The make believe stuff drives me up a wall though. "You can't prove he's not!" Is not an argument Everyone on GR says it. Even guest. But you keep on being that sheep!
WildCard Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: All good points but you are still not disproving mine. You're also not proving yours. WGR reporters random speculation, especially after what they did to ROR and Reinhart, and guest callers are not evidence.
Ogelthorpe Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, WildCard said: You're also not proving yours. WGR reporters random speculation, especially after what they did to ROR and Reinhart, and guest callers are not evidence. That's right. Dregger and Friedman are clueless, they don't know what they are talking about. Did not realize you get paid to post on this forum. Lol
Stoner Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 The 64 gazillion dollar question is — why did Adams start thinking about moving Jack after last season? 5
WildCard Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 14 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said: That's right. Dregger and Friedman are clueless, they don't know what they are talking about. Did not realize you get paid to post on this forum. Lol Flagg can go ahead and debate with you on how useless those mouthpieces are. Where do they actually report Eichel is this locker room cancer you claim him to be?
dudacek Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 Hasn’t there always been kinda a rough rule of thumb when trading a good player for a package in a hockey trade that the package includes a good but lesser player to fill a roster hole and balance salaries, an unproven player who could, but likely won’t reach the heights of the traded player and a pick/prospect to sweeten the pot? Fiala, Rossi, 21OA nails it from that perspective. And the value feels right. Buchnevich, Kakko, 15OA? Gibson, 3OA, Comtois? Of course there have been indications Adams prefers straight futures 2
JohnC Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 12 minutes ago, dudacek said: Hasn’t there always been kinda a rough rule of thumb when trading a good player for a package in a hockey trade that the package includes a good but lesser player to fill a roster hole and balance salaries, an unproven player who could, but likely won’t reach the heights of the traded player and a pick/prospect to sweeten the pot? Fiala, Rossi, 21OA nails it from that perspective. And the value feels right. Buchnevich, Kakko, 15OA? Gibson, 3OA, Comtois? Of course there have been indications Adams prefers straight futures I agree with everything you posted up to but not including your last comment that Adams prefers straight futures. As you stated it is a safe assumption that Jack is going to be the best player on either side of the deal. But in order to get a fair-value (not equal return) is to get some young upside players who can play right away. A deal that you have been touting and fits in with your thesis is a deal with Anaheim that includes Zegras, Comtois and their 3OA pick.
LGR4GM Posted July 15, 2021 Author Report Posted July 15, 2021 Friedman on WGR says that Eichel has started skating again but does not know what that means in regards to his injury. 1 1
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