Hoss Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, tom webster said: But my point is that his only leverage would be to sit out which he won’t do, play poorly purposely, which he won’t do, or agree to go somewhere of their choosing. With Hall, he was in his last months, he could have just played it out and they would have gotten nothing for him. You definitely lose a ton of leverage once that NMC kicks in. The only way Jack could really take it all away, though, is to go nuclear as you said and refuse to play. That’s the only way he could force his way to a specific team BUT he could demand a trade and then nix several interested teams and drive the price down. The team can play hardball. It can and will get ugly at that point and will turn players off from coming here. I personally believe sports franchises should ban no-move and no-trade clauses but that won’t happen. 1 hour ago, thewookie1 said: How's this Eichel to Vegas for Tuch, Krebs, Hague, Smith and their 2021 & 2022 1st Trade the 2021 1st for Dvorak and Smith(50%) for a 2nd and a 4th in different years. I’m a yes on that Vegas deal. I don’t think Vegas does it, though. Maybe with one first.
Hoss Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said: How are you going to have a healthy locker room if your star player wants out? That sort of situation won't be in the team's best interest. As pointed out this takes some major assuming but it is absolutely something the team has to consider. We don’t have to assume that Jack wants out - he made that clear with his “wherever” comment. What we don’t know is if he wants out because the team made it clear already that they wanted to move him and he said “well ***** you too” or if his comments were part of his first strike.
kas23 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: I don't envy Adams' position because he will be ridiculed even if he makes the best possible decision. You are risking a lot waiting too long on Eichel. For better or for worse, Adams will be forever be known as the GM who traded Eichel. He better win (or at least break even) this trade or history won’t be kind on him. Even for Botterill, his defining moment was trading ROR. You can’t discuss Botterill without bringing up the ROR trade. Edited July 12, 2021 by kas23 1
PerreaultForever Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: I don't envy Adams' position because he will be ridiculed even if he makes the best possible decision. You are risking a lot waiting too long on Eichel. I agree with the risk idea but I think Adams is in a pretty good position. We are dead last in the league. We're a joke. If he makes these deals and the team even starts to look like a team and steadily improve he will look like he finally righted the ship. It's possible we could be even worse, but it'll take a huge f up by him for that to happen.
PerreaultForever Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, JohnC said: Jack has never been disruptive. Where are those assumptions coming from? No one is challenging the fact that he isn't happy with the course of this franchise but so are other players. He's a fierce competitor who wants to win. That's an attitude that you want your players to have. The point that I'm stressing here is that if the Sabres decide to trade him they should get back a fair return. The deal doesn't necessarily have to be in our favor but it has to be a fair value for an elite talent. No more ROR type deals. That was an act of foolishness that set this franchise back. It's not an assumption, it's a very real possibility, and given this moment in time, this opportunity, I don't want to take that risk, because if we do risk it and he does quit on us then we're in ROR V2 to the extreme. We'll get an even worse deal and Jack will end up in Boston. I say don't risk it. He may be a competitor, but he may also have also had his fill. 2
PerreaultForever Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Hoss said: As pointed out this takes some major assuming but it is absolutely something the team has to consider. We don’t have to assume that Jack wants out - he made that clear with his “wherever” comment. What we don’t know is if he wants out because the team made it clear already that they wanted to move him and he said “well ***** you too” or if his comments were part of his first strike. idk when this "recent" interview was, but if this bit is accurate it isn't definitive, but it also doesn't sound like a guy who wants to be in Buffalo. https://causewaycrowd.com/2021/07/10/boston-bruins-jack-eichel-intriguing-comments-recent-interview/ Not trading him somewhere, before the nmc kicks in, is too risky.
Hoss Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said: idk when this "recent" interview was, but if this bit is accurate it isn't definitive, but it also doesn't sound like a guy who wants to be in Buffalo. https://causewaycrowd.com/2021/07/10/boston-bruins-jack-eichel-intriguing-comments-recent-interview/ Not trading him somewhere, before the nmc kicks in, is too risky. I believe the interview was done last week. It was posted and discussed here and got some mixed reactions but it's interesting. He knows the situation he's in and the current perception of his desire (or lack thereof) to be in Buffalo so he knows how those comments would be taken. I do believe it was a bit setup and snipped out of a larger answer and a leading question as another poster pointed out but he still needs to understand what saying that is going to look like. I believe he DOES know that and still said it. 2
sabremike Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 In the words of Lou Lamorello: "If you have time use it." 3
Buffalonill Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 12 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Because if he demands a trade after his NMC kicks in, it's Taylor Hall all over again. If you think the Sabres will get jobbed in an Eichel trade now, wait till his NMC kicks in. Are you willing to bet on Eichel having a change of heart to risk hanging on to him and losing what leverage you have to make a deal now? If we start with winning he wil stay Connor McDavid wanted to leave also .
JohnC Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said: It's not an assumption, it's a very real possibility, and given this moment in time, this opportunity, I don't want to take that risk, because if we do risk it and he does quit on us then we're in ROR V2 to the extreme. We'll get an even worse deal and Jack will end up in Boston. I say don't risk it. He may be a competitor, but he may also have also had his fill. You are contradicting yourself. It is an assumption when you state it is possible.
JohnC Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 10 hours ago, Randall Flagg said: We have been in fantasy land for a while now on this topic. Enough has been assumed and fabricated about Jack to construct a novel In this new reality of crazed critics Jack's new moniker is Jack the Ripper.
Marvin Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 22 minutes ago, JohnC said: You are contradicting yourself. It is an assumption when you state it is possible. I think what he means is that, absent any other information, the Sabres have to consider it a possibility.
Pimlach Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 11 hours ago, JohnC said: Jack has never been disruptive. Where are those assumptions coming from? No one is challenging the fact that he isn't happy with the course of this franchise but so are other players. He's a fierce competitor who wants to win. That's an attitude that you want your players to have. The point that I'm stressing here is that if the Sabres decide to trade him they should get back a fair return. The deal doesn't necessarily have to be in our favor but it has to be a fair value for an elite talent. No more ROR type deals. That was an act of foolishness that set this franchise back. Disruptive, not so sure but probably not disruptive. Behavior and leadership, that’s another story. I do not believe that great behavior is a consensus opinion of Jack among veteran players and past coaches. No one will question his fire and his dedication to his craft either. He wants to win. My opinion is that if we can’t make a deal and he stays he will not be a problem for Granato. He has matured some since his younger days. He also knows that other GMs are watching and listening. 1
JohnC Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said: I think what he means is that, absent any other information, the Sabres have to consider it a possibility. The organization and staff should have a better understanding (although not fully) of who Jack is as a person. And I assume the organization understands that the extended turbulent situation in Buffalo is the cause of much of the dissatisfaction not only by him but also other players. And if you factor in the unknown career repercussions related to his sidelining injury it shouldn't be surprising that about his level of anxiety. That shouldn't be difficult to understand. What I find grossly unfair is that there is an assumption that he is going to be disruptive if he doesn't get his way in this situation. I just can't make the same scathing assumption about Jack that others are making. Make no mistake about my position. It might be best for the player and the organization to divorce and get a fresh start. That doesn't mean that it is right to smear a player's character over this conflict. The issue comes down to is how much are the negative assumptions based on fact? Not enough to satisfy me. 2
JohnC Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, Pimlach said: Disruptive, not so sure but probably not disruptive. Behavior and leadership, that’s another story. I do not believe that great behavior is a consensus opinion of Jack among veteran players and past coaches. No one will question his fire and his dedication to his craft either. He wants to win. My opinion is that if we can’t make a deal and he stays he will not be a problem for Granato. He has matured some since his younger days. He also knows that other GMs are watching and listening. This is an excellent post! It is insightful and a fair characterization of the situation. As you point out it is in everyone's interest for him to play well even if he is destined to be moved at a later time. As I have stated in other posts I just think that too many people are falsely making character judgments on him. Those smearing judgments seem to me are not so much based on substance than they are on what people think it to be. That is not right.
Pimlach Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, JohnC said: This is an excellent post! It is insightful and a fair characterization of the situation. As you point out it is in everyone's interest for him to play well even if he is destined to be moved at a later time. As I have stated in other posts I just think that too many people are falsely making character judgments on him. Those smearing judgments seem to me are not so much based on substance than they are on what people think it to be. That is not right. His talent speaks for itself. Regarding any negatives, NHL GMs are going to factor in his age, the clowns running the show since he got here, and the huge emotional load of being Captain on a losing team, especially a team under continuous change. I still think the biggest obstacle to the trade is the injury itself, GMs will use it to their advantage, KA must hold firm. Pegula must not create artificial deadlines. He really needs to stay out. None of us know how much degradation there is in the relationship but I suspect it is a lot. I hope the trade talks stall, he comes back and loves playing for Granato, and the entire team starts to improve and compete. Need to get a great goalie to help enable this. Yes, this is probably all unrealistic wishful thinking. 2
PromoTheRobot Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 11 hours ago, kas23 said: For better or for worse, Adams will be forever be known as the GM who traded Eichel. He better win (or at least break even) this trade or history won’t be kind on him. Even for Botterill, his defining moment was trading ROR. You can discuss Botterill without bringing up the ROR trade. If the Sabres make the playoffs under Adams, that will negate whatever people think about an Eichel trade... assuming Eichel doesn't win a cup and earn playoff MVP.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Buffalonill said: If we start with winning he wil stay Connor McDavid wanted to leave also . If the Sabres make the playoffs this year, maybe. A lot depends on how much Jack likes playing for Granato.
Pimlach Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 11 hours ago, kas23 said: For better or for worse, Adams will be forever be known as the GM who traded Eichel. He better win (or at least break even) this trade or history won’t be kind on him. Even for Botterill, his defining moment was trading ROR. You can discuss Botterill without bringing up the ROR trade. I think Botterill’s defining moment was hiring Krueger. He was working the ROR trade on a deadline, and he got fleeced. Every GM losses a trade. It Tage continues to develop and Johnson becomes an NHL defenseman then the trade is less bad. The RK hire was mind boggling, especially after hiring a first time head coach and seeing it fail. 2
kas23 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 36 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: If the Sabres make the playoffs under Adams, that will negate whatever people think about an Eichel trade... assuming Eichel doesn't win a cup and earn playoff MVP. If we make the playoffs, this would mean that we improved by trading Eichel. So, moving on from Jack would be looked at in a positive light and KA will be known as the one who realized this and pulled the trigger. For better or worse, this will be his defining moment. 1
JohnC Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 38 minutes ago, Pimlach said: His talent speaks for itself. Regarding any negatives, NHL GMs are going to factor in his age, the clowns running the show since he got here, and the huge emotional load of being Captain on a losing team, especially a team under continuous change. I still think the biggest obstacle to the trade is the injury itself, GMs will use it to their advantage, KA must hold firm. Pegula must not create artificial deadlines. He really needs to stay out. None of us know how much degradation there is in the relationship but I suspect it is a lot. I hope the trade talks stall, he comes back and loves playing for Granato, and the entire team starts to improve and compete. Need to get a great goalie to help enable this. Yes, this is probably all unrealistic wishful thinking. As you astutely noted if the GM is able to upgrade our goaltending that in itself will be a major factor in improving this team. Whether Jack returns or he is dealt for an equitable return stabilizing that position will make this team competitive. If you watched the games last year when a soft goal was given up it was evident that it had a deflating effect on this team that struggled to score goals. If you want to accelerate the timeline for a rebuild the organization has to do whatever it needs to do to address that position. 2 1
Thorner Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 Botterill made so many glaring errors. His defining moment for me may have been trading a 6th round pick in one draft for a 6th in the following. It's not like it caused a lot of harm in and of itself, it was just objectively indefensible - it made no sense. He did a lot of odd things. From that, to, not so much dealing ROR (as people like to put that on Pegula) but penciling Mittelstadt in as his 2C for the following season after the ROR deal. Failing to help the team after the big win streak. Frolik. Avoiding the CHL in the draft. Krueger. Oddness. Bridging Reinhart 4
PerreaultForever Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 5 hours ago, JohnC said: You are contradicting yourself. It is an assumption when you state it is possible. how so?
JohnC Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 32 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said: how so? When you say something is possible you are also implying that it may not be possible. Again, you are making an assumption on what you believe something to be without a factual basis to it. 1
Hoss Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 7 hours ago, Buffalonill said: If we start with winning he wil stay Connor McDavid wanted to leave also . It never got this far or close to it with McDavid and our path to winning is not a simple one but yes, I imagine if we held on and got to the playoffs the tone changes.
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