Official Jason Karmanos Hired as Sabres Associate GM

[LTS]

9 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

This sounds great.  I'll believe it when I see it.   I just don't see how TP and Rutherford co-exist tho... 

I could see Rutherford coming on board then quitting in a few weeks.

But if that happens I think the entire world will know that Pegula hasn't just been a bad owner but will continue to be the problem for the Sabres organization. I honestly don't think Pegula can afford to NOT remove himself in this case.

It's that or he's going to need to sell the team and hope his antics with the Sabres don't tarnish his value with the Bills.

[That Aud Smell]

12 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Would you settle for a flash of man boobs?

I'd consider it an upgrade.

12 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Anyone could write that. They don't have the smoke turning into fire part.

I'm just saying that Karmanos to the Sabres had been rumoured for a couple weeks, at least.

Adding Rutherford and his reported stipulation are the bigger news, IMO.

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

 

This really looks to me like this is something Adams has engineered, rather than had handed to him. It also seems like Karmanos would be his assistant and Rutherford his advisor, so any overrruling would be coming from Kevyn.

 

This is how I see it. Of course, it hasn't happened yet, but if it does I think it is a great sign that Adams has real leadership skills. The Pegulas, Botterill and Krueger all seemed reluctant to hire people who were smarter than them. A hallmark of a good leader is the willingness to hire people who are smart and who will challenge you and who are qualified to take your job from you.  Karmanos and Rutherford are both guys who are more qualified for the GM position than Adams is. If this is Adams' idea, and it seems very clear that it is, then that is ballsy.

[darksabre]

9 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I'd consider it an upgrade.

I'm just saying that Karmanos to the Sabres had been rumoured for a couple weeks, at least.

Adding Rutherford and his reported stipulation are the bigger news, IMO.

The reason I expect that Rutherford might get his demands met without too much complaining from the Pegulas is that getting told to eff off by the Bills is exactly what turned that team into a winner. Beane and McDermott don't strike me as guys who like to be micromanaged.

And frankly, I think they were actually trying to do the same thing with Krueger. I think they expected him to work out in such a way that they could put some more distance between themselves and the Sabres. They probably figured they were getting a little two-for-one deal with him, someone who could coach the team but also do a little of the advisory stuff in conjunction with the GM. It just didn't work out...

So having a team of Rutherford-Adams and a TBD credible coach ends up being a little less budget friendly version of Krueger-Botterill.
 

[LabattBlue]

3 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The reason I expect that Rutherford might get his demands met without too much complaining from the Pegulas is that getting told to eff off by the Bills is exactly what turned that team into a winner. Beane and McDermott don't strike me as guys who like to be micromanaged.

And frankly, I think they were actually trying to do the same thing with Krueger. I think they expected him to work out in such a way that they could put some more distance between themselves and the Sabres. They probably figured they were getting a little two-for-one deal with him, someone who could coach the team but also do a little of the advisory stuff in conjunction with the GM. It just didn't work out...

So having a team of Rutherford-Adams and a TBD credible coach ends up being a little less budget friendly version of Krueger-Botterill.
 

There has been a lot of rumbling about an agreement between McD/Beane and the Pegula's, including that they have it in their contracts for the Pegula's to "stay away from football matters", but I highly doubt that is the case.  It has been reported in the last few years that Terry has been at the scouting combine, and I'm sure he meets with Beane on at least a regular basis...maybe not as much with McD.

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, LTS said:

But if that happens I think the entire world will know that Pegula hasn't just been a bad owner but will continue to be the problem for the Sabres organization. I honestly don't think Pegula can afford to NOT remove himself in this case.

It's that or he's going to need to sell the team and hope his antics with the Sabres don't tarnish his value with the Bills.

And this might be why the news is leaking: a little more pressure on Terry to do the right thing.

Of course, from what we know of Terry, there is an equal chance of that backfiring as well.

11 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

This is how I see it. Of course, it hasn't happened yet, but if it does I think it is a great sign that Adams has real leadership skills. The Pegulas, Botterill and Krueger all seemed reluctant to hire people who were smarter than them. A hallmark of a good leader is the willingness to hire people who are smart and who will challenge you and who are qualified to take your job from you.  Karmanos and Rutherford are both guys who are more qualified for the GM position than Adams is. If this is Adams' idea, and it seems very clear that it is, then that is ballsy.

Agreed.

Adams has talked this talk since day one, but until now we have seen no evidence of it.

[Stoner]

5 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The reason I expect that Rutherford might get his demands met without too much complaining from the Pegulas is that getting told to eff off by the Bills is exactly what turned that team into a winner. Beane and McDermott don't strike me as guys who like to be micromanaged.

And frankly, I think they were actually trying to do the same thing with Krueger. I think they expected him to work out in such a way that they could put some more distance between themselves and the Sabres. They probably figured they were getting a little two-for-one deal with him, someone who could coach the team but also do a little of the advisory stuff in conjunction with the GM. It just didn't work out...

So having a team of Rutherford-Adams and a TBD credible coach ends up being a little less budget friendly version of Krueger-Botterill.
 

Good stuff. I had forgotten the story about McBeane also stipulating that Terry butt out.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

This really looks to me like this is something Adams has engineered, rather than had handed to him.

I agree. RFK was handed to him, and KA did his level best to make that work, but it's clear that Krueger wasn't the right choice. I think what we're seeing now is KA's work  

Edited March 29, 2021 by Doohickie

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

There has been a lot of rumbling about an agreement between McD/Beane and the Pegula's, including that they have it in their contracts for the Pegula's to "stay away from football matters", but I highly doubt that is the case.  It has been reported in the last few years that Terry has been at the scouting combine, and I'm sure he meets with Beane on at least a regular basis...maybe not as much with McD.

I would be absolutely stunned if the agreement included "staying away;" what owner would agree to that?

I would suspect the deal is more "you set the budget, I decide how to spend it," with some level of input welcome in either direction for big picture decisions, and very limited input from the Pegulas in day-to-day operations.

Edited March 29, 2021 by dudacek

[darksabre]

7 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

There has been a lot of rumbling about an agreement between McD/Beane and the Pegula's, including that they have it in their contracts for the Pegula's to "stay away from football matters", but I highly doubt that is the case.  It has been reported in the last few years that Terry has been at the scouting combine, and I'm sure he meets with Beane on at least a regular basis...maybe not as much with McD.

Echoing dudacek here, I think the Bills, ahem, understanding, is basically "leave the football stuff to the football people". That's not an unreasonable way to structure things. At the very least, it's the professional way to do things. Finance the team if you want, handle the business side of it, but let the experts do what they do. Fire them at will if they fail, but don't be so foolish as to think you can do it.

Rutherford and any other credible hockey people they bring in should not have any trouble installing the same ground rules.

Perhaps the problem with bringing in guys like Murray and Botterill is that they simply lacked the clout and experience to know they needed to.

[Zamboni]

There is a difference between stone cold irrefutable truth, and speculation, rumor, and hypothetical scenarios. 

 

Which one is the Bills/Terry/Beene “stay away” story?

Which one is the Sabres/Terry/Rutherford “stay away” story?

[Thorner]

4 hours ago, inkman said:

 

 

 

I have no problem with Chad.  I do have a problem with this weird desire to have information first.  I don’t care who reports things or when they report them.  

It's not really about the idea of having it first, props specifically for that, it's just that - if someone is considered to have been 1st, they'd be revealing themselves to be a source for trusted info, not just some guy reading and taking someone else's work on the internet 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Thorny

[Stoner]

28 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

There is a difference between stone cold irrefutable truth, and speculation, rumor, and hypothetical scenarios. 

 

Which one is the Bills/Terry/Beene “stay away” story?

Which one is the Sabres/Terry/Rutherford “stay away” story?

Are you looking for a joint press release from Terry and the management parties confirming the agreements?

[StuckinFL]

This would almost be a dream come true but I have to say after 10 years I'm hesitant to believe it. How many times have we been given hope that this ship is turning around only to have those hopes be dashed upon the rocks.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I would be absolutely stunned if the agreement included "staying away;" what owner would agree to that?

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I think the Bills, ahem, understanding, is basically "leave the football stuff to the football people". 

Beane's on record saying that the ultimate decision on whether to take Allen was his to make.

OTOH, the fact that Terry and Kim traveled to Wyoming with Beane, McDermott, and Daboll isn't exactly "staying away" from football matters. Maybe the franchise QB is a unique matter. Anyway: Here's what Allen had to say following the draft:

Q: What was your reaction like when you got to meet Terry before you were drafted?

Allen: Yeah, so he came out to Laramie, Wyoming. He came out with Kim and the coaching staff and we sat down and we had dinner. We went out there and he kind of saw me throw and he followed me coming back to the facilities about two weeks ago. [I’ve been] getting to talk with him again just get to know him and for him to getting to see how I really ticked. Turns out, he really liked what he saw.

 

[Zamboni]

38 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Are you looking for a joint press release from Terry and the management parties confirming the agreements?

No, I was basically looking to see if anybody knew if it’s completely true, these allegations… Or if these are just rumors and then those rumors are what is causing the strong opinions on what they feel is fact. I wasn’t sure if some thing solid and unequivocal came out at some point. Or just fans throwing 💩 up against the wall to see if it sticks.

[Stoner]

3 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

No, I was basically looking to see if anybody knew if it’s completely true, these allegations… Or if these are just rumors and then those rumors are what is causing the strong opinions on what they feel is fact. I wasn’t sure if some thing solid and unequivocal came out at some point. Or just fans throwing 💩 up against the wall to see if it sticks.

It's not coming from fans. Reporters are putting it out. I don't see how such info. can be iron-clad and unequivocal, short of the involved parties confirming, which won't happen. There has to be a middle ground between provably true and fans throwing stuff against the wall.

Edited March 29, 2021 by PASabreFan
Syphilis

[Zamboni]

3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's not coming from fans. Reporters are putting it out. I don't see how such info. can be iron-clad and unequivocal, short of the involved parties confirming, which won't happen. There has to be a middle ground between provably true and fans throwing stuff against the wall.

Ah ok. Now I know where to file it in my brain 😂

thanks

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's not coming from fans. Reporters are putting it out. I don't see how such info. can be iron-clad and unequivocal, short of the involved parties confirming, which won't happen. There has to be a middle ground between provably true and fans throwing stuff against the wall.

I think it's more accurate to say that "reporters have said they've heard rumors that TP and BB have an agreement that TP won't meddle."  I don't think any credible reporter has reported that such an agreement exists.

[Scottysabres]

Just now, nfreeman said:

I think it's more accurate to say that "reporters have said they've heard rumors that TP and BB have an agreement that TP won't meddle."  I don't think any credible reporter has reported that such an agreement exists.

I'm signing this agreement comment to agree with this agreement comment because I agree.

Reporters......you may report on this!

[GASabresIUFAN]

We should (have to?) assume that if Rutherford comes here he has an understanding with Terry and Kim that he has the authority to fix things here without bringing every decision to Kim.  He is a seasoned pro and he knows where the line is between his autonomy and what needs clearance from above.

Assuming he’s hired, we will know how much authority he has by what how he acts.  

[Kruppstahl]

Listen to the most recent podcast epidode of Expected Buffalo.

Episode 15. 

An interesting point was made in it.  It was suggested that Jim Rutherford, if he joins the organization, could come in with 1 of 2 possible roles within the organization.

1) He is brought in to simply act as an advisor, showing/teaching everyone how to build and organize things in the proper way.  Who to hire, how many assistants to have, reporting hierarchy structure, and so on.  

Or

2) He could be brought in in much more of a Hockey Department consultant role, where he is actively making decisions on players currently on the team or off the team, advising who to dump, who to acquire, and other substantive hockey decisions.

If he is coming in here pursuant to No. 1, fine.  I'll have him.

If he is coming in here pursuant to No. 2, no thanks!  He is 72 years old, way too out of it now for that job description, and adequately proved at his last stint in Pittsburgh that his best days are far behind him now.

He's the Bill Polian of the NHL now; once a solid man but now just too old and too past his prime to be making important hockey decisions.

Lastly, the podcast seems to suggest that the hold up in hiring him hinges on Rutherford getting approval from Pegula that Pegula will stay out of the way and give final say authority to Rutherford, or something like that.  

That's a good thing, and it shows, I think, that people like Adams are trying to slowly get Pegula to understand that as long as he is going to play "hockey administrator" the organization is going to be a circus.

Whether Rutherford comes in or if this is just a mirage, it does seem to suggest there might be some movement in getting Pegula to stay the hell out of the way, which would be encouraging.

Ultimately, I'm not sure how much Chad really knows; his "sources" seem dubious.  Sometimes he gets some things right, some times not.

There aren't that many people in the world right now who would know that the Sabres are trying to hire Rutherford.  So I guess Chad is talking to one of them?  Seems unlikely to me, but who knows.

This story needs another week or 2 to cook and we'll see what comes of it, if anything.

I *do* think we'll see Karmanos come in here soon as an AGM.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Kruppstahl

[Doohicksie]

42 minutes ago, StuckinFL said:

This would almost be a dream come true but I have to say after 10 years I'm hesitant to believe it.

It will happen. But upon joining the Sabres Karmanos will need to go into cocaine rehab and Rutherford will be diagnosed with dementia. 

Because Buffalo. 

[PerreaultForever]

If I'm not mistaken ticket sales for the opened up games were/are incredibly slow and I'm not sure they even sold them all. This reality may have finally woken Terry up from his deluded dream and he sees no option but to market a new climate of hope or else ticket sales for next year will be non existent. The only way to create that feeling of hope and renewal is to bring in a name hockey person like Rutherford (or Dudley, still my preferred choice). 

So in a way, I think Terry faced the choice. Either sell the team or step back and let it be reborn . At least I hope that's it. 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, StuckinFL said:

This would almost be a dream come true but I have to say after 10 years I'm hesitant to believe it. How many times have we been given hope that this ship is turning around only to have those hopes be dashed upon the rocks.