Official Jason Karmanos Hired as Sabres Associate GM

[Radar]

If we're going to just hijack this thread why not start another thread? This tank conversation is not on subject.

[Thorner]

22 minutes ago, nucci said:

regardless whether the tank was a good idea...it didn't work and we are still the worst team in the league after all these years

[darksabre]

27 minutes ago, Radar said:

If we're going to just hijack this thread why not start another thread? This tank conversation is not on subject.

Everything is inherently related to the tank. Sorry.

[Radar]

7 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Everything is inherently related to the tank. Sorry.

Exactly how does this connect with hiring Rutherford or Karmanos?

[Thorner]

27 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Everything is inherently related to the tank. Sorry.

At some point the statute of limitations is gonna kick in here. I dunno when that is but if they are bad in 5 years it’s not “the tank!”. That’ll be over a decade lol 

[WildCard]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

At some point the statute of limitations is gonna kick in here. I dunno when that is but if they are bad in 5 years it’s not “the tank!”. That’ll be over a decade lol 

It will only happen once we're good again

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, WildCard said:

It will only happen once we're good again

Maybe but that wouldn’t be reasonable. There is enough time for a GM to come in and do a full scale rebuild sans tank and sink or swim. 

It can’t literally be the driving force at a certain point, only the initial event  

[Stoner]

9 minutes ago, WildCard said:

It will only happen once we're good again

And then the rehabilitation of the tank will be complete, like Richard Nixon's return to public life. It will be the reason we are good.

[darksabre]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

At some point the statute of limitations is gonna kick in here. I dunno when that is but if they are bad in 5 years it’s not “the tank!”. That’ll be over a decade lol 

I'll echo wildcard. Until the team is good again everything is the direct result of the tank.

The stink of desperation, the recklessness, the lack of planning, the empty prospect pipeline, the hapless owners. A confluence of conditions that created a particularly catastrophic event from which everything afterwards projects.

Like Marty going back in time and punching Biff Tannen, it changed the whole course of history on that timeline.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, darksabre said:

I'll echo wildcard. Until the team is good again everything is the direct result of the tank.

The stink of desperation, the recklessness, the lack of planning, the empty prospect pipeline, the hapless owners. A confluence of conditions that created a particularly catastrophic event from which everything afterwards projects.

Like Marty going back in time and punching Biff Tannen, it changed the whole course of history on that timeline.

So if we are bad 100 years from now it’s on the tank? 

Illogical 

There is a certain segment of time, whatever that is, in which an organization can be turned over, top to bottom. If that amount of time elapses since the tank, you can’t blame the tank anymore 

[darksabre]

Just now, Thorny said:

So if we are bad 100 years from now it’s on the tank? 

Illogical 

How so? Does the influence of historic events not extend across generations, even centuries?

[Thorner]

If those in charge are incapable of correcting course, then the decision to tank was never the issue - it was the person making the decisions 

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, darksabre said:

How so? Does the influence of historic events not extend across generations, even centuries?

It’s interesting but at some point if it’s reasonably possible to fix things after considering all constraints, I believe the blame has to shift. 

If it’s possible to get competent people in here now and fix things (and I’m asking, is it?), then how is the repeated decision to decline to fix things not worse than the singular decision to tank? 

The repeated neglect over time is the more severe failure 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorner]

Tank could only be continued to be called the current source of failing if one believed it was literally still preventing us from being better.

I don’t know where the line is but imo it’s not logical to think, in say, 20 years, the situation remained unfixable the entire time. That solid people couldn’t have come in and righted the ship. Only if the tank was still precluding that from happening could it be seen as the driving force of the current failure 

That’s not the same as me saying I don’t agree that without the tank, we wouldn’t be here. I think it is a big reason we are here. 

But its symptomatic at this point moreso than determinant 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Thorny

[darksabre]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It’s interesting but at some point if it’s reasonably possible to fix things after considering all constraints, I believe the blame has to shift. 

If it’s possible to get competent people in here now and fix things (and I’m asking, is it?), then how is the repeated decision to decline to fix things not worse than the singular decision to tank? 

The repeated neglect over time is the more severe failure 

 

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Tank could only be continued to be called the current source of failing if one believed it was literally still preventing us from being better.

I don’t know where the line is but imo it’s not logical to think, in say, 20 years, the situation remained unfixable the entire time. That solid people couldn’t have come in and righted the ship. Only if the tank was still precluding that from happening could it be seen as the driving force of the current failure 

 

It's not about pure logic. Sports teams aren't machines. They're living, breathing organisms, made of human beings and all of the associated baggage and history that comes with that. Why does one business fail and another succeed even if they are constructed the same?

This organization is poisoned, it's infected, it's stained with disgrace. That carries a lot of weight.

Can it be fixed? Maybe. But it's a heavy lift. Effective management may not be enough. And we should accept that it's possible that no one can turn this ship from the course it's on.

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

 

It's not about pure logic. Sports teams aren't machines. They're living, breathing organisms, made of human beings and all of the associated baggage and history that comes with that. Why does one business fail and another succeed even if they are constructed the same?

This organization is poisoned, it's infected, it's stained with disgrace. That carries a lot of weight.

Can it be fixed? Maybe. But it's a heavy lift. Effective management may not be enough. And we should accept that it's possible that no one can turn this ship from the course it's on.

That’s the crux of it. 

I don’t believe this is at all possible 

If the team hypothetically cannot be fixed, by any means, there in lies an argument that the tank could always be responsible 

I am positive the team can be fixed.

[Sabre fan]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That’s the crux of it. 

I don’t believe this is at all possible 

If the team hypothetically cannot be fixed, by any means, there in lies an argument that the tank could always be responsible 

I am positive the team can be fixed.

totally agree this team can be fixed and have clearly shown signs of that in most recent games. Heck, we looked really good and we are still without a healthy Jack (who by himself would make a huge difference) as well as McCabe and Borgen and we are stil not getting any return from Hall or Skinner and I think the first thing we should do when Jack returns is put Skinner and Sam together and try and get our 9 mil worth out of Skinner. Guy did great with Jack and we got him for a bunch more years might as well use him where he helps the team most. If we get even 20 goals from Skinner that would help immensely

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Sabre fan said:

totally agree this team can be fixed and have clearly shown signs of that in most recent games. Heck, we looked really good and we are still without a healthy Jack (who by himself would make a huge difference) as well as McCabe and Borgen and we are stil not getting any return from Hall or Skinner and I think the first thing we should do when Jack returns is put Skinner and Sam together and try and get our 9 mil worth out of Skinner. Guy did great with Jack and we got him for a bunch more years might as well use him where he helps the team most. If we get even 20 goals from Skinner that would help immensely

I've liked Skinner with Casey.

that felt weird. 

[Sabre fan]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I've liked Skinner with Casey.

that felt weird. 

no actually he has been getting piles of chances for sure just can't seem to bury them. I am just thinking maybe he'll regain his scoring touch with Jack

[darksabre]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That’s the crux of it. 

I don’t believe this is at all possible 

If the team hypothetically cannot be fixed, by any means, there in lies an argument that the tank could always be responsible 

I am positive the team can be fixed.

I'm sure some people thought Bricklin could be fixed, or Enron, or the Whalers. 

Sometimes the momentum is too much to overcome.

[Thwomp!]

So, are we actually getting these guys?  How much of this is rumor vs. fact?

[Derrico]

17 hours ago, Radar said:

What does the tank pros or cons have to do with the thread title???????

Agreed.  Where are our mods?  I'm so sick of the tank impregnating all of these other threads.  I know how hardcore they were regarding moving politics out of threads.  I just want to move forward and discuss moving forward in a thread like this instead of rehashing the same tank points a million times.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Derrico

[Thorner]

11 minutes ago, Sabre fan said:

totally agree this team can be fixed and have clearly shown signs of that in most recent games. Heck, we looked really good and we are still without a healthy Jack (who by himself would make a huge difference) as well as McCabe and Borgen and we are stil not getting any return from Hall or Skinner and I think the first thing we should do when Jack returns is put Skinner and Sam together and try and get our 9 mil worth out of Skinner. Guy did great with Jack and we got him for a bunch more years might as well use him where he helps the team most. If we get even 20 goals from Skinner that would help immensely

Yes, but it extends beyond that. 

It could go as far as hypothetically needing new owners. My point was merely that, if that was the case, and the tank has infected Pegula and nothing can be better with him here, that *still* doesn’t mean it’s not fixable - the issue then is the owner, incapable of implementing a new strategy. At which point, the statute of limitations on the tank simply expires when we get a new owner. 

I digress 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

Everything is inherently related to the tank. Sorry.

can you remind me how good this team was prior to the tank? 

Its not like they blew up a team that was a player or two from winning the cup.  They were mediocre at best.

[Derrico]

33 minutes ago, darksabre said:

 

It's not about pure logic. Sports teams aren't machines. They're living, breathing organisms, made of human beings and all of the associated baggage and history that comes with that. Why does one business fail and another succeed even if they are constructed the same?

This organization is poisoned, it's infected, it's stained with disgrace. That carries a lot of weight.

Can it be fixed? Maybe. But it's a heavy lift. Effective management may not be enough. And we should accept that it's possible that no one can turn this ship from the course it's on.

I don't want to continue rehashing the tank talk and love reading the content you add to this forum.  Having said that, you can not be serious regarding the bolded lol.  I thought the same thing about the Bills until they became good.  We're in a salary cap league.  Management was so incompentent to overpay Skinner and Okposo and Molson and......IMO the real problem with this franchise is giving big, long term money to the wrong guys and we're now also in cap hell.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Derrico