Fixing the Defense - Maybe not as easy as you think

[GASabresIUFAN]

NHL

Ristolainen - signed through 2021/22 @ 5.4

Miller - signed through 2021/22 @ 3.875

Dahlin - RFA, my guess is 5 years at 5.4

Jokiharju - RFA

AHL/NHL

Borgen - RFA

Bryson - signed through 2021/22

Important UFAs - McCabe (IR) and Montour

Other considerations:  The expansion draft.  Protect Dahlin, Ristolainen and Jokiharju; that leaves Miller and Borgen exposed.  

Lineup for 2021/22 based on who is here

??????(McCabe?) Ristolainen

Dahlin ?????? (Borgen?)

Jokiharju  Miller (Bryson?)

The simple solution is hope Seattle doesn't take Borgen (or give them an incentive to take MIller), go young and cheap, except keep McCabe.  Depending on the coach this could work. However, this would be a PR mistake and an on ice mistake.  Bryson isn't defensively ready for the NHL and a Joki Bryson pairing would get crushed physically.  It also depends on how management feels about Borgen's future.  Is he just a place holder until Samuelsson is ready, someone they don't mind losing in expansion or do they envision him as Dahlin long-term partner.  My guess is as a placeholder for Samuelsson.  

The aggressive solution is to keep Dahlin, protect Risto and then traded him, and try to trade Miller.  Protect Jokiharju and let Seattle take Borgen and start with basically Dahlin and Jokiharju and will in the rest with trades and UFAs.  This is the worst scenario IMHO. What UFA want to come here other then guys just trying to hang on to their NHL careers.  We also don't have the ammo to fill the rest with trades.  

The best solution starts with re-sign Dahlin, Jokiharju and McCabe.  Keep Risto as well.  My guess is there is no market for Miller and he becomes the 7th D to finish out his deal.  Hopefully Seattle takes a forward from us (like Asplund) and leaves Borgen.  This leaves KA with only one job and that is find a partner for Dahlin.  There will be some good cap casualties to shop from.  Maybe Wash will part with Nick Jensen (2 years left @ 2.5) or Adam Larsson can be signed, but this where to start looking

McCabe Risto

Dahlin Jensen

Jokiharju Borgen

Miller

While looking more like the status quo then an upgrade, we come away with a much more balance unit, featuring 3 defensive D and a more physical presence.  With two top pairings, we can take pressure off the 3rd unit until they show they are ready for it.  

 

[LGR4GM]

41 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

NHL

Ristolainen - signed through 2021/22 @ 5.4

Miller - signed through 2021/22 @ 3.875

Dahlin - RFA, my guess is 5 years at 5.4

Jokiharju - RFA

AHL/NHL

Borgen - RFA

Bryson - signed through 2021/22

Important UFAs - McCabe (IR) and Montour

Other considerations:  The expansion draft.  Protect Dahlin, Ristolainen and Jokiharju; that leaves Miller and Borgen exposed.  

Lineup for 2021/22 based on who is here

??????(McCabe?) Ristolainen

Dahlin ?????? (Borgen?)

Jokiharju  Miller (Bryson?)

The simple solution is hope Seattle doesn't take Borgen (or give them an incentive to take MIller), go young and cheap, except keep McCabe.  Depending on the coach this could work. However, this would be a PR mistake and an on ice mistake.  Bryson isn't defensively ready for the NHL and a Joki Bryson pairing would get crushed physically.  It also depends on how management feels about Borgen's future.  Is he just a place holder until Samuelsson is ready, someone they don't mind losing in expansion or do they envision him as Dahlin long-term partner.  My guess is as a placeholder for Samuelsson.  

The aggressive solution is to keep Dahlin, protect Risto and then traded him, and try to trade Miller.  Protect Jokiharju and let Seattle take Borgen and start with basically Dahlin and Jokiharju and will in the rest with trades and UFAs.  This is the worst scenario IMHO. What UFA want to come here other then guys just trying to hang on to their NHL careers.  We also don't have the ammo to fill the rest with trades.  

The best solution starts with re-sign Dahlin, Jokiharju and McCabe.  Keep Risto as well.  My guess is there is no market for Miller and he becomes the 7th D to finish out his deal.  Hopefully Seattle takes a forward from us (like Asplund) and leaves Borgen.  This leaves KA with only one job and that is find a partner for Dahlin.  There will be some good cap casualties to shop from.  Maybe Wash will part with Nick Jensen (2 years left @ 2.5) or Adam Larsson can be signed, but this where to start looking

McCabe Risto

Dahlin Jensen

Jokiharju Borgen

Miller

While looking more like the status quo then an upgrade, we come away with a much more balance unit, featuring 3 defensive D and a more physical presence.  With two top pairings, we can take pressure off the 3rd unit until they show they are ready for it.  

 

Please stop this. Please for the love of god. Sure this offseason I could see players unsure about it but most times it isn't a problem. In fact in the last 6 years we have signed the top UFA forward 3 of the 6 times. Sure Okposo sucks now but he was the top forward. Skinner and Hall both came here or stayed here as UFA's. It simply is not true that player won't come here. 

I protect 4 D and 4 forwards. Cozens is exempt from the draft. So Eichel, Sam, Skinner, and Olofsson I suppose. Really all depends on who get's traded between now and then. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Please stop this. Please for the love of god. Sure this offseason I could see players unsure about it but most times it isn't a problem. In fact in the last 6 years we have signed the top UFA forward 3 of the 6 times. Sure Okposo sucks now but he was the top forward. Skinner and Hall both came here or stayed here as UFA's. It simply is not true that player won't come here. 

I protect 4 D and 4 forwards. Cozens is exempt from the draft. So Eichel, Sam, Skinner, and Olofsson I suppose. Really all depends on who get's traded between now and then. 

Your going to let Mitts go in expansion to keep Borgen?  Really?

KO came here to play with Jack and ROR and he didn't work out

Skinner was acquired in trade and stayed for a king's ransom and to play with Jack.  How did that work out?

Hall thought he'd cash in playing with Jack as well.  How did that work out?

Signing a big fish is great on paper but it hasn't exactly worked out.  However the biggest difference is that those guys signed on a team that was nearly hockey 500 and looking to move up.  

How do they feel about a self destructing team with terrible management?  My guess the top players aren't lining up top come here.  Truthfully, until we are an actually hockey team we shouldn't be making a big splash in free agency.  We need to make smart trades for guys with term and fill in with medium to lower tier UFAs on short deals.  

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Your going to let Mitts go in expansion to keep Borgen?  Really?

KO came here to play with Jack and ROR and he didn't work out

Skinner was acquired in trade and stayed for a king's ransom and to play with Jack.  How did that work out?

Hall thought he'd cash in playing with Jack as well.  How did that work out?

Signing a big fish is great on paper but it hasn't exactly worked out.  However the biggest difference is that those guys signed on a team that was nearly hockey 500 and looking to move up.  

How do they feel about a self destructing team with terrible management?  My guess the top players aren't lining up top come here.  Truthfully, until we are an actually hockey team we shouldn't be making a big splash in free agency.  We need to make smart trades for guys with term and fill in with medium to lower tier UFAs on short deals.  

Yup. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yup. 

I like Will Borgen as well, but 8 NHL games isn't exactly much to go on and I'm not keeping him over Mitts.  

I'd rather go 

Eichel, Mitts, Skinner, Reinhart, VO, Lazar, Asplund.  Dahlin, Risto, Jokiharju.  If you dangle Thompson out there and Borgen, they almost assuredly take Thompson.

 

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I like Will Borgen as well, but 8 NHL games isn't exactly much to go on and I'm not keeping him over Mitts.  

I'd rather go 

Eichel, Mitts, Skinner, Reinhart, VO, Lazar, Asplund.  Dahlin, Risto, Jokiharju.  If you dangle Thompson out there and Borgen, they almost assuredly take Thompson.

 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Please stop this. Please for the love of god. Sure this offseason I could see players unsure about it but most times it isn't a problem. In fact in the last 6 years we have signed the top UFA forward 3 of the 6 times. Sure Okposo sucks now but he was the top forward. Skinner and Hall both came here or stayed here as UFA's. It simply is not true that player won't come here. 

I protect 4 D and 4 forwards. Cozens is exempt from the draft. So Eichel, Sam, Skinner, and Olofsson I suppose. Really all depends on who get's traded between now and then. 

Ya, but it's kind of true. Kind of.

They come here when we overpay them. Can you remember the last home town discount signing we made? I can't. Skinner leveraged JBot with such an incredible squeeze he never should have been signed. Nobody offered Hall the money he wanted in this covid uncertainty year. Okposo was made an offer he couldn't refuse. We are definitely NOT a desirable location aside from players who have few other options.

But whatever. To the D question. The team would be insane to leave Borgen unprotected. Make a trade or leave a veteran for them. Fixing the D is difficult, I agree, which is why I'd say pick D in this draft as it's D heavy. The future of this D is in the hands of Samuelson, Johnson, maybe Dahlin, Borgen, Bryson, and whoever we pick this year.  

[OhMyDahlin]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

NHL

Ristolainen - signed through 2021/22 @ 5.4

Miller - signed through 2021/22 @ 3.875

Dahlin - RFA, my guess is 5 years at 5.4

Jokiharju - RFA

AHL/NHL

Borgen - RFA

Bryson - signed through 2021/22

Important UFAs - McCabe (IR) and Montour

Other considerations:  The expansion draft.  Protect Dahlin, Ristolainen and Jokiharju; that leaves Miller and Borgen exposed.  

Lineup for 2021/22 based on who is here

??????(McCabe?) Ristolainen

Dahlin ?????? (Borgen?)

Jokiharju  Miller (Bryson?)

The simple solution is hope Seattle doesn't take Borgen (or give them an incentive to take MIller), go young and cheap, except keep McCabe.  Depending on the coach this could work. However, this would be a PR mistake and an on ice mistake.  Bryson isn't defensively ready for the NHL and a Joki Bryson pairing would get crushed physically.  It also depends on how management feels about Borgen's future.  Is he just a place holder until Samuelsson is ready, someone they don't mind losing in expansion or do they envision him as Dahlin long-term partner.  My guess is as a placeholder for Samuelsson.  

The aggressive solution is to keep Dahlin, protect Risto and then traded him, and try to trade Miller.  Protect Jokiharju and let Seattle take Borgen and start with basically Dahlin and Jokiharju and will in the rest with trades and UFAs.  This is the worst scenario IMHO. What UFA want to come here other then guys just trying to hang on to their NHL careers.  We also don't have the ammo to fill the rest with trades.  

The best solution starts with re-sign Dahlin, Jokiharju and McCabe.  Keep Risto as well.  My guess is there is no market for Miller and he becomes the 7th D to finish out his deal.  Hopefully Seattle takes a forward from us (like Asplund) and leaves Borgen.  This leaves KA with only one job and that is find a partner for Dahlin.  There will be some good cap casualties to shop from.  Maybe Wash will part with Nick Jensen (2 years left @ 2.5) or Adam Larsson can be signed, but this where to start looking

McCabe Risto

Dahlin Jensen

Jokiharju Borgen

Miller

While looking more like the status quo then an upgrade, we come away with a much more balance unit, featuring 3 defensive D and a more physical presence.  With two top pairings, we can take pressure off the 3rd unit until they show they are ready for it.  

 

Why would Borgen be a "placeholder" for Samuelsson...one is a RHD and the other is a LHD.

If anything, Miller and McCabe are the placeholders.

[PalmTreeMafia]

Are we overvaluing Borgen and Samuelsson? Isn't Borgen projected as a 3rd line d-man? Will Samuelsson even make the NHL?

[Torpedo Forecheck]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Yup. 

That would be dumb

[BuffalOhio]

Keep Borgen and expose Joker.  Joker has tailed off and is lost.  Borgen is a defensive defenseman the type of which we don't have enough.

[LabattBlue]

52 minutes ago, BuffalOhio said:

Keep Borgen and expose Joker.  Joker has tailed off and is lost.  Borgen is a defensive defenseman the type of which we don't have enough.

I could be talked into this strategy. 

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya, but it's kind of true. Kind of.

They come here when we overpay them. Can you remember the last home town discount signing we made? I can't. Skinner leveraged JBot with such an incredible squeeze he never should have been signed. Nobody offered Hall the money he wanted in this covid uncertainty year. Okposo was made an offer he couldn't refuse. We are definitely NOT a desirable location aside from players who have few other options.

But whatever. To the D question. The team would be insane to leave Borgen unprotected. Make a trade or leave a veteran for them. Fixing the D is difficult, I agree, which is why I'd say pick D in this draft as it's D heavy. The future of this D is in the hands of Samuelson, Johnson, maybe Dahlin, Borgen, Bryson, and whoever we pick this year.  

So it's true if you squint really hard, make up parameters, and ignore the fact it's not true. 

1 hour ago, Torpedo Forecheck said:

That would be dumb

If I have to pick between Mitts and Borgen, I pick Borgen. 

If this team is smart they will trade a defender and solve their problems. 

[LGR4GM]

57 minutes ago, BuffalOhio said:

Keep Borgen and expose Joker.  Joker has tailed off and is lost.  Borgen is a defensive defenseman the type of which we don't have enough.

You could do that. I'd be hesitant though. 

 

[BuffalOhio]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You could do that. I'd be hesitant though. 

 

Tell me why.  

With Dahlin and Bryson we have enough "offensive defensemen."  We don't need one on each pair.  We need defenders who are tough to play against.

I assume you've watched in awe as our team struggles to gain possession in our own zone and we all think to ourselves, "Here it comes" about 10 seconds before a goal is scored.  Enough of that already.

 

 

[PerreaultForever]

20 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So it's true if you squint really hard, make up parameters, and ignore the fact it's not true. 

No, it's true if you look at the details and not just the headlines. 

21 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

If I have to pick between Mitts and Borgen, I pick Borgen. 

I agree with this. 

I also don't feel there is a need to protect Lazar. He's been a fine 4th line pick up and he works hard, but he's hardly an important piece of the future. He's only valuable to a team that sucks monkey balls like ours. 

[Carmel Corn]

IMHO - we need to keep Borgen.  We need two more stay-at-home types, even if it means losing Joki (ideally trade bait).   We need big mean guys who can defend and keep the crease clear for our goalies.  JBOT built a defense corp consisting of too many like-minded players who are soft and too easy to play against.

[Marvin]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

But whatever. To the D question. The team would be insane to leave Borgen unprotected. Make a trade or leave a veteran for them. Fixing the D is difficult, I agree, which is why I'd say pick D in this draft as it's D heavy. The future of this D is in the hands of Samuelson, Johnson, maybe Dahlin, Borgen, Bryson, and whoever we pick this year.  

I have 3 D I would need to protect: Borgen, Dahlin, and Jokiharu; I expect that Bryson is ready.  Yes, that means Ristolainen is exposed.  If you were Seattle's GM, would you take him with 1 year left?  There are better values out there with infinitely more hockey sense.

Honestly, I would go shopping for a boring low-end to mediocre middle pairings like people across the hockey world thought Tallinder-Lydman, McKee-Kalinin, and Numminen-Campbell before 2005-6.  For that matter if the next 3 guys have the reputations and play of Darryl Shannon, Richard Smehlik, and James Patrick, I would be very happy to unload Ristolainen for one of them.

Up front, I would ask Skinner to trust he won't be picked at his salary so I could protect Eichel, Reinhart, Oloffson, and Mittlestadt.  At this point, I would seriously consider getting a 4th defenceman to protect like the rumour surrounding Matt Ryan Ellis

Edited March 24, 2021 by Marvin, Sabres Fan
Recognised I need to improve to become the Matt Ellis of posters

[Torpedo Forecheck]

I totally disagree with letting a 20-21 year old, first round #8 pick, who appears to  be starting to find himself as an NHL player to keep a marginal  24 year old defensive defenseman. Glad some of you guys aren't making these decisions for my team, and with good reason.

[LabattBlue]

41 minutes ago, Torpedo Forecheck said:

I totally disagree with letting a 20-21 year old, first round #8 pick, who appears to  be starting to find himself as an NHL player to keep a marginal  24 year old defensive defenseman. Glad some of you guys aren't making these decisions for my team, and with good reason.

Overrating Mitts, underrating Borgen. 
What is the middle ground?

[Brawndo]

I’d expose both Miller and Risto. 

Risto has been a good trooper through all this, but based on his comments the losing has gotten to him and with one year left he deserves the chance to get out of this mess

If either one of them is selected that’s 3.875 or 5.4 Million in cap space.

 

Forwards 

Eichel, Reinhart, Skinner, Mitts, Oloffson, Lazar and Tage

 

Defense

Dahlin, Borgen and Jokiharju 

 

A dark horse pick for Seattle to take, especially with Their Analytics Department, would be Lawrence Pilut. 
(Yes he is eligible for the expansion draft as the Sabres still hold His Rights) 

[Torpedo Forecheck]

30 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Overrating Mitts, underrating Borgen. 
What is the middle ground?

No middle ground, binary choice, Mitts is more valuable asset.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Torpedo Forecheck said:

I totally disagree with letting a 20-21 year old, first round #8 pick, who appears to  be starting to find himself as an NHL player to keep a marginal  24 year old defensive defenseman. Glad some of you guys aren't making these decisions for my team, and with good reason.

(1) Mittelstadt is 22, 23 before next season.

(2) Four years after their draft year, it doesn’t matter where they were drafted.

Beyond that, you might be right.  I’d like to see more from both of them this season.  If it was me, I’d protect both of them.

[Marvin]

18 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I’d expose both Miller and Risto. 

Risto has been a good trooper through all this, but based on his comments the losing has gotten to him and with one year left he deserves the chance to get out of this mess

If either one of them is selected that’s 3.875 or 5.4 Million in cap space.

 

Forwards 

Eichel, Reinhart, Skinner, Mitts, Oloffson, Lazar and Tage

 

Defense

Dahlin, Borgen and Jokiharju 

 

A dark horse pick for Seattle to take, especially with Their Analytics Department, would be Lawrence Pilut. 
(Yes he is eligible for the expansion draft as the Sabres still hold His Rights) 

That's what I would do currently.

If he is not taken, what are the chances that we could bring Pilut back?

[PalmTreeMafia]

1 hour ago, Torpedo Forecheck said:

I totally disagree with letting a 20-21 year old, first round #8 pick, who appears to  be starting to find himself as an NHL player to keep a marginal  24 year old defensive defenseman. Glad some of you guys aren't making these decisions for my team, and with good reason.

Could you imagine if we had some of the SabreSpace community members running this team? We'd probably end up with the worst record in the league and with a points earned percentage lower than that during the Tank Year. Or something.

Leaving players like Mitts, Risto, and Joki unprotected in the expansion draft would be poor management of roster resources. At least trade those guys beforehand. If we're not talking trades, then I'd protect Eichel, Reinhart, Olofsson, Skinner, Mitts, Thompson, Asplund, Dahlin, Risto, Joki, and Ullmark. I like Borgen. I'm a big fan of what he brings to the roster. I would consider offering Seattle a draft pick or something to not take Borgen. But you don't protect 3rd line d-men with no offensive skills over young players with top-10 draft pick talent.