An engrained losing culture

[Andrew Amerk]

What does “engrained” mean?

[Curt]

@PerreaultForever

What players off this team would you want to keep?

Im thinking:

G- I’d bring back Ullmark.

D- Dahlin, Jokiharju, Borgen, Bryson

Would you bring back McCabe?

F- Skinner almost has to be back for contractual reasons, Cozens, Girgensons, Lazar, Reider and Sheahan are whatever/maybes, Asplund can stay I guess.

Would you try to salvage Mitts?  He’s been a little better lately, but that might also be a sell high moment.

Is this too many returning guys?

Edited March 19, 2021 by Curt

[Kruppstahl]

Watched the NESN coverage of the game tonight.

Jack Edwards: "The Sabres are now on their fourth 5-year plan in the last 6 years".

He was merciless on Skinner in terms of near zero production in exchange for $9 million.

Hell, they were pretty hard on Eichel, even if he didn't play and is a Bostonian!

We have some enormous negative inertia to overcome around here.

 

 

[Thwomp!]

6 minutes ago, Curt said:

@PerreaultForever

What players off this team would you want to keep?

Im thinking:

G- I’d bring back Ullmark.

D- Dahlin, Jokiharju, Borgen, Bryson

Would you bring back McCabe?

F- Skinner almost has to be back for contractual reasons, Cozens, Girgensons, Lazar, Reider and Sheahan are whatever/maybes, Asplund can stay I guess.

Would you try to salvage Mitts?  He’s been a little better lately, but that might also be a sell high moment.

Is this too many returning guys?

I think girgensons is here no matter what due to contract. I like the rest of your list.

If mitts is part of a hockey trade, I'd move him.

I could see mccabe coming back on a value 1 or 2 year deal.

[PerreaultForever]

5 minutes ago, Curt said:

@PerreaultForever

What players off this team would you want to keep?

Im thinking:

G- I’d bring back Ullmark.

D- Dahlin, Jokiharju, Borgen, Bryson

Would you bring back McCabe?

F- Skinner almost has to be back for contractual reasons, Cozens, Girgensons, Lazar, Reider and Sheahan are whatever/maybes, Asplund can stay I guess.

Would you try to salvage Mitts?  He’s been a little better lately, but that might also be a sell high moment.

Is this too many returning guys?

It depends on the return I guess but I'm not concerned about trading almost anyone except for Cozens. 

Would I keep McCabe? Yes, but would also let him go for a decent deal or as part of one. Ullmark is fine if the price is low enough but I'm also fine to try someone else until UPL can take over. 

I'd keep Borgen and Bryson because I think they can be decent and you won't get enough value in trading them at this stage. I'd keep Dahlin and Jokiharju but would entertain offers. Bothe need redevelopment and a true hockey trade might work for both sides. 

Stuck with Skinner. No answer there. Again with Mitts he's young and if there's no return he stays. 

It's the core that has to go and be replaced with a new core and new attitude. 

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Watched the NESN coverage of the game tonight.

Jack Edwards: "The Sabres are now on their fourth 5-year plan in the last 6 years".

He was merciless on Skinner in terms of near zero production in exchange for $9 million.

Hell, they were pretty hard on Eichel, even if he didn't play and is a Bostonian!

We have some enormous negative inertia to overcome around here.

 

 

Nothing that hiring an entirely new hockey department and turning over the entire roster can’t fix!

[Kruppstahl]

 

[Brawndo]

6 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

Analytics is not rubbish; it can be applied to all sports, and relying on it in connection with lots of other things is much better than ignoring it entirely.

I will guarantee the Sabres would be a much better team right now if all organizational and coaching decisions were driven *solely* by analytics over the last 3 or 4 years.

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. Adams has wanted to expand the analytics department for the Sabres this season and Jason Karmanos the front runner for the AGM Spot, expanded the department in Pittsburgh. 
 

Players do not need to buy into, but the coaching staff should. 
 

Carolina has one of the leagues better analytics department and Brindamour mentioned he was skeptical about the suggestions coming from the department about player usage and lines, but he quickly realized it worked. 

[Thorner]

8 hours ago, Curt said:

I don’t for sure this is the only way forward.  Maybe, maybe if most of the roster is turned over a couple of the better players (Jack? Sam? Risto?) from this team could be part of a good Sabres team.

However, I’m at the point where I will not be the least bit upset if the decision is to blow it up and move everyone out for a combination of players, prospects, and picks.  They have already dumped a lot of the front office, players might be next.  Rebuild the entire organization starting with a couple quality FO people who will decide on the coach who is aligned with their vision, and commit to keeping him in place for at least 3 years.  Then FO and HC work together to ID and acquire players who really fit that vision, not just kind of fit it.  The players need to be driving the vision as much as the FO or HC.

I would rather field a less talented team of players who all have the same mindset, and bring the new prospects up through that environment, than have a more talented team of players who kinda/sorta have the same mindset.

Just pretend that it’s an expansion team plus Skinner.  They could just embrace the whole narrative of being scrappy underdogs, and everyone thinks they are a joke, but they are going to show everyone different.  At least that is an identity that the right group of players can get behind.

The bolded is the key. 

Do you have confidence, sans the bringing in of advisors/a POHO, for Adams to execute such a monumental task? The only way the "do it all over again" thing makes sense, to me, is if A) the goal is to win next season and B) experienced management is brought in. Not just talking an assistant GM here under Adams. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Thorny

[Curt]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

The bolded is the key. 

Do you have confidence, sans the bringing in of advisors/a POHO, for Adams to execute such a monumental task? The only way the "do it all over again" thing makes sense, to me, is if A) the goal is to win next season and B) experienced management is brought in. Not just talking an assistant GM here under Adams. 

 

Oh man, confidence?  I don’t know that I have real confidence in much of anything regarding this team.

I like Adams fine.  I like what he says he wants to do.  The sample size is a bit small to evaluate him beyond that.

A major potential obstacle is ownership.  Will they allow Adams to be the GM, or will they be overly involved?  Most recent report was that Adams went to FL to meet with them and got sign off on his plan moving forward.  Hopefully that’s a good sign.

If Jason Karmanos is brought on board, as is rumored, I like that move.  He is very experienced in high level positions, but not ancient.  He led the way in building out the analytics department in Pittsburgh, something that Adams has said he wants to do in Buffalo.

Beyond that, I would like to see another prominent voice brought in.  Whether that is a second experienced AGM, or someone with GM experience (Rutherford? Carolina gang?) in an advisory role.  I would feel comfortable with that “brain trust”.  

I don’t think Adams NEEDS a PoHO above him, as long as he has (1) a few good people around him to discuss ideas with, and (2) a mostly free hand from ownership.

As long an a good support team is around Adams, a lot of it will come down to, “is Adams good at being a GM?”  We just don’t know yet.

What FO additions and/or structure would make you feel comfortable?

[Thorner]

54 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

Oh man, confidence?  I don’t know that I have real confidence in much of anything regarding this team.

I like Adams fine.  I like what he says he wants to do.  The sample size is a bit small to evaluate him beyond that.

A major potential obstacle is ownership.  Will they allow Adams to be the GM, or will they be overly involved?  Most recent report was that Adams went to FL to meet with them and got sign off on his plan moving forward.  Hopefully that’s a good sign.

If Jason Karmanos is brought on board, as is rumored, I like that move.  He is very experienced in high level positions, but not ancient.  He led the way in building out the analytics department in Pittsburgh, something that Adams has said he wants to do in Buffalo.

Beyond that, I would like to see another prominent voice brought in.  Whether that is a second experienced AGM, or someone with GM experience (Rutherford? Carolina gang?) in an advisory role.  I would feel comfortable with that “brain trust”.  

I don’t think Adams NEEDS a PoHO above him, as long as he has (1) a few good people around him to discuss ideas with, and (2) a mostly free hand from ownership.

As long an a good support team is around Adams, a lot of it will come down to, “is Adams good at being a GM?”  We just don’t know yet.

What FO additions and/or structure would make you feel comfortable?

I really think that additional, GM-experienced advisory role addition is needed. There needs to be someone in the “trust” that has actual NHL GM experience lending a voice. 

I’d like to see them bring in at least one voice that’s involved in/been involved in hockey canada to be honest, as well (or in that role), in an effort to keep the staff from being far too homogeneous - which to me it definitely is. 

And filling out the scouting department before the next draft is absolutely required. Elliot was saying other teams hired personal even in places they couldn’t physically get to, re: covid 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Thorny

[Curt]

37 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I really think that additional, GM-experienced advisory role addition is needed. There needs to be someone in the “trust” that has actual NHL GM experience lending a voice. 

I’d like to see them bring in at least one voice that’s involved in/been involved in hockey canada to be honest, as well (or in that role), in an effort to keep the staff from being far too homogeneous - which to me it definitely is. 

And filling out the scouting department before the next draft is absolutely required. Elliot was saying other teams hired personal even in places they couldn’t physically get to, re: covid 

Mostly agree.

I would feel more comfortable adding someone with GM experience, even if it’s just an advisor/consultant position.

I don’t know about the hockey Canada stuff.  Botterill is deeply involved in hockey Canada.  Did that help?

Yes, they need to fill out the scouting department a little bit.  They went from largest staff to the smallest.  I’m assuming that Adams and whoever else comes into management roles will add a few scouts.

[Thorner]

16 minutes ago, Curt said:

Mostly agree.

I would feel more comfortable adding someone with GM experience, even if it’s just an advisor/consultant position.

I don’t know about the hockey Canada stuff.  Botterill is deeply involved in hockey Canada.  Did that help?

Yes, they need to fill out the scouting department a little bit.  They went from largest staff to the smallest.  I’m assuming that Adams and whoever else comes into management roles will add a few scouts.

Botterill isn’t a hockey Canada guy in practice he actively avoided all things CHL. 

I was talking more a hockey Canada guy in terms of helping our ability to evaluate the biggest junior league in the world. 

Not strictly management - more intel/scouting/advisory. I’m not sure they have a single CHL relevant voice on the entire staff. They need more worldly voices in general - Europe, Canada, wherever - almost the entire staff is USA hockey (or harbourcenter, whichever) 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

39 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Botterill isn’t a hockey Canada guy in practice he actively avoided all things CHL. 

I was talking more a hockey Canada guy in terms of helping our ability to evaluate the biggest junior league in the world. 

Not strictly management - more intel/scouting/advisory. I’m not sure they have a single CHL relevant voice on the entire staff. They need more worldly voices in general - Europe, Canada, wherever - almost the entire staff is USA hockey (or harbourcenter, whichever) 

Botterill's chief scout, Jankowski, was hired directly from Hockey Canada.

(Agree with your point on needing staff with diverse backgrounds and connection, just pointing it out)

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Botterill's chief scout, Jankowski, was hired directly from Hockey Canada.

(Agree with your point on needing staff with diverse backgrounds and connection, just pointing it out)

But again, he clearly wasn't hired for his notes on the CHL as Botterill had no interest in drafting from that league outside the top of the draft 

Anything connecting to Botterill is part of the issue inherently by default 

And Jankowski is gone anyways. Looking at the staff list, I don't believe there to be one member of the front office staff from outside USA hockey 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Thorny

[Curt]

56 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Botterill isn’t a hockey Canada guy in practice he actively avoided all things CHL. 

I was talking more a hockey Canada guy in terms of helping our ability to evaluate the biggest junior league in the world. 

Not strictly management - more intel/scouting/advisory. I’m not sure they have a single CHL relevant voice on the entire staff. They need more worldly voices in general - Europe, Canada, wherever - almost the entire staff is USA hockey (or harbourcenter, whichever) 

Oh, ok.  I thought you literally meant someone who worked for Hockey Canada, the Canadian national hockey organization.

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Curt

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, Curt said:

Oh, ok.  I thought you literally meant someone who worked for Hockey Canada.

 

I used the term Hockey Canada but ya the hire can be from Austrailia it's not about nationality - it's just often the guys with experience within hockey canada (exceptions like Botterill notwithstanding) who have the CHL areas of expertise. 

There should be someone on staff with a background and connections in that area (there isn't) who's focus for OUR organization includes the CHL

Edited March 19, 2021 by Thorny

[Curt]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I used the term Hockey Canada but ya the hire can be from Austrailia it's not about nationality - it's just often the guys with experience within hockey canada (exceptions like Botterill notwithstanding) who have the CHL areas of expertise. 

Personally, I don’t care about that as much, but yes, it’s probably generally a good idea.

[Thorner]

We have a specific department head for college scouting, even, but nothing CHL related 

1 minute ago, Curt said:

Personally, I don’t care about that as much, but yes, it’s probably generally a good idea.

I think the way we draft is definitely a reflection of the staff. if you don't care about that, it's not really an issue I guess. 

Like i said, a front office entirely USA hockey staffed doesn't seem ideal to me

[Curt]

9 hours ago, Thorny said:

We have a specific department head for college scouting, even, but nothing CHL related 

I think the way we draft is definitely a reflection of the staff. if you don't care about that, it's not really an issue I guess. 

Like i said, a front office entirely USA hockey staffed doesn't seem ideal to me

Yeah, I agree that it probably is not ideal.

However, I also think the team has drafted better the past few years than in the 10 years before that.

My main concern is that the team drafts well.  Their path to that outcome is secondary.

So, while I agree with you, if they draft well, I don’t care if every single FO person and scout is from the US of A.

[Andrew Amerk]

On 3/18/2021 at 10:09 PM, Andrew Amerk said:

What does “engrained” mean?

Okay. Nobody. 

Let’s just embrace stupidity and never learn. 

[Curt]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Okay. Nobody. 

Let’s just embrace stupidity and never learn. 

in·grain

verb

past tense: engrained; past participle: engrained

/ənˈɡrān/

firmly fix or establish (a habit, belief, or attitude) in a person.

"they trivialize the struggle and further ingrain the long-standing attitudes"

[#freejame]

20 hours ago, Thorny said:

We have a specific department head for college scouting, even, but nothing CHL related 

I think the way we draft is definitely a reflection of the staff. if you don't care about that, it's not really an issue I guess. 

Like i said, a front office entirely USA hockey staffed doesn't seem ideal to me

At very least a team should have four divisions of scouting with a full staff--CHL, Europe, College, USA. Hire a head scout for each, let that person hire four scouts and boom now you have a 21 person amateur scouting department. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

On 3/18/2021 at 11:20 PM, Kruppstahl said:

Watched the NESN coverage of the game tonight.

Jack Edwards: "The Sabres are now on their fourth 5-year plan in the last 6 years".

He was merciless on Skinner in terms of near zero production in exchange for $9 million.

Hell, they were pretty hard on Eichel, even if he didn't play and is a Bostonian!

We have some enormous negative inertia to overcome around here.

 

 

Jack Edwards is as asshat and a dastardly Bruin and all, but that is very funny and mostly true.