What style coach does this team need?

[Radar]

4 hours ago, sweetlou said:

Gallant or Torts?

Torts a big NO!! Terrible for this young team. Prefer Granato to a Torts sideshow. Gallant is fine wjth me.

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

That's getting closer. What Kevyn needs to figure out is how to get the right guys for the situation the franchise is in. Do they give any thought to pyschologically profiling prospective players? Who wants to be part of rebuilding a historically bad hockey team in a small Rust Belt city, with bad weather etc.? It's a rare breed of cat. Cozens sure seems to fit the bill.

For now. Remember Jack's, "Buffalo, I'm COMIN' FOR YA!"?

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

To both of you: does winning just happen accidentally then? Then you're golden, for awhile anyway?

More specifically to the topic at hand, do you want to hire a coach who fits the current players' styles and personalities? Mittelstadt might have openly lobbied for Granato after the game yesterday. Great, but then what happens when Mitts and others like the coach until they don't (again)? The tail can't wag the dog.

I think it's just a critical accumulation of talent. It's hard for me to identify the "style" or "personality" variable that's missing when there are more significant variables staring us in the face. I know it's not a great answer but I can't bring myself to hypothesize on what may be missing on that front, and argue about why it's a significant reason we haven't had success, when we don't actually have NHL talent at some of the positions that matter most, which has a much more significant affect on winning and losing. Staal at 2C? Rookie Mittelstadt? How do I know that Jack can't "lead" or doesn't play the right way when we don't even give him capable NHLers to lead?

"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard". Sure, but when talent works hard, the "hard work" only guys are up schitt's creek. The "intangibles" side of things matters but it's secondary to talent. If we can identify and strengthen the talent variable first, and close off that part of the equation, I then move towards gaining ground through the other avenues. 

Acquire good players. Chances are, to achieve "good", at this level, they HAVE to have some of the other intangible things, anyways. 

Half the battle in getting everyone to "buy in" to your chosen direction, the style and way you want to play, is the belief that, if they do so, they'll have success. And they'll believe that when the roster is filled with talent. 

You can persuade some of the other stuff, out of players. You can't will talent. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Thorny

[jsb]

I'm still a bit confused as to why Vegas dumped Gallant. So that's a flag to me. You know who might have interest and isn't spoken about on this site is Jim Montgomery, had a couple of personal issues (alcoholism) which had him fired but if he's truly turned it around and it appears so in St.Louis as an assistant, he actually did a very good job in Dallas, @Doohickie might have an opinion on him that I don't know about. 

[Radar]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

To both of you: does winning just happen accidentally then? Then you're golden, for awhile anyway?

More specifically to the topic at hand, do you want to hire a coach who fits the current players' styles and personalities? Mittelstadt might have openly lobbied for Granato after the game yesterday. Great, but then what happens when Mitts and others like the coach until they don't (again)? The tail can't wag the dog.

Agree. Players should not dictate who the coach is or will be.

[Doohicksie]

3 minutes ago, jsb said:

I'm still a bit confused as to why Vegas dumped Gallant. So that's a flag to me. You know who might have interest and isn't spoken about on this site is Jim Montgomery, had a couple of personal issues (alcoholism) which had him fired but if he's truly turned it around and it appears so in St.Louis as an assistant, he actually did a very good job in Dallas, @Doohickie might have an opinion on him that I don't know about. 

Did he coach in Dallas?  I don't follow the Stars much.

[jsb]

9 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Did he coach in Dallas?  I don't follow the Stars much.

He was fired midway thru last year because of personal issues, he was 60-43-10 in his 1+ years there and was the one who started their turnaround a couple of years ago. He followed up Hitchcock if I'm not mistaken. 

[Stoner]

38 minutes ago, Thorny said:

For now. Remember Jack's, "Buffalo, I'm COMIN' FOR YA!"?

I think it's just a critical accumulation of talent. It's hard for me to identify the "style" or "personality" variable that's missing when there are more significant variables staring us in the face. I know it's not a great answer but I can't bring myself to hypothesize on what may be missing on that front, and argue about why it's a significant reason we haven't had success, when we don't actually have NHL talent at some of the positions that matter most, which has a much more significant affect on winning and losing. Staal at 2C? Rookie Mittelstadt? How do I know that Jack can't "lead" or doesn't play the right way when we don't even give him capable NHLers to lead?

"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard". Sure, but when talent works hard, the "hard work" only guys are up schitt's creek. The "intangibles" side of things matters but it's secondary to talent. If we can identify and strengthen the talent variable first, and close off that part of the equation, I then move towards gaining ground through the other avenues. 

Acquire good players. Chances are, to achieve "good", at this level, they HAVE to have some of the other intangible things, anyways. 

Half the battle in getting everyone to "buy in" to your chosen direction, the style and way you want to play, is the belief that, if they do so, they'll have success. And they'll believe that when the roster is filled with talent. 

You can persuade some of the other stuff, out of players. You can't will talent. 

Rather than style, personality or intangibles, I was thinking more along the lines of how you want your team to play the game. Think Lou. There's Lou's way, which I'm sure can be tweaked from year to year. But Lou hires a coach who's going to coach Lou hockey, and the players follow. To start, what are the principles that are applied to build a team? From the goalie out? Center spine? Mobile defense?

Adams looks at where the league has been, where it is and where it's going. Who are the Buffalo Sabres?

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Rather than style, personality or intangibles, I was thinking more along the lines of how you want your team to play the game. Think Lou. There's Lou's way, which I'm sure can be tweaked from year to year. But Lou hires a coach who's going to coach Lou hockey, and the players follow. To start, what are the principles that are applied to build a team? From the goalie out? Center spine? Mobile defense?

Adams looks at where the league has been, where it is and where it's going. Who are the Buffalo Sabres?

That's what I  mean: I think you acquire the talent first, and then apply the principles accordingly based on the the types of players you acquired.   

You don't start with the principles. The winning establishes the principles.

[Thorner]

Acquiring players with a high motor isn't a principle, it's not a mission statement, it's not a mantra, it's Base Level Competence 

[PerreaultForever]

Screw what the players want. This team has been built upside down and needs to be reset.

Hire Torts and build the work ethic at all costs. Anybody who doesn't buy in is shown the door. The kids like Cozens with the right attitude will buy in and grow and become stars. 

Ottawa is doing it. I said at the beginning of the year that they were doing it right and would pass us in time. Sooner than I expected and they will get better and better. We will just flounder asking is Jack happy and does he want out until it happens. Sabres are the stupidest organization in pro sports.......and the Steelers are the Steelers 🙂

[PromoTheRobot]

On 3/17/2021 at 12:59 PM, Kruppstahl said:

"Style" is meaningless IMO.

What they need is an experienced NHL coach who knows how to win and has won in many different situations.

It's why I love Boudreau for the job, but Gallant or Julien would be fine too.

The fact that none of those 3 have been named HC as of today tells me they aren't going to be hired.

So I assume we will hire the wrong guy again.  Probably a college coach.

 

Boudreau is a relic running off the fumes of his reputation. Sure he might bully your team into a playoff berth only to get blown out in round one. He's looking for one more retirement payday.

[Marvin]

Because I would like to make the playoffs next season, I want to turn this around: what kind of players do we have?  Which coach would use the players' abilities, diversify their games, and create the expectation of winning?

Large parts of our team are very young.  Our expected 3rd line, a potential 2nd liner, and potentially 4 of our defencemen will be 23 or under.  The next coack can't be one known for killing youth.

Many of our players excel with more dynamic games, so we need a coach whose preferred style caters to that.  He must not sacrifice their games for his system.  He must be able to utilise their skills while diversifying their games.

[nfreeman]

I think the team is dying for a coach who understands the NHL game well enough to get more offensive production out of a group that sure seems capable of much more than the rock-bottom scoring they’ve been delivering, AND who will demand that the team play with passion and stick up fiercely for each other.  

[Taro T]

It's a fairly oversimplified position, but they need a coach that can understand his players' strengths & will build a system around what they can do rather than forcing a square peg (or several) into a round hole.

It's what Ruff did for close to 20 years.

My expectation is that Gallant can do this.  Can Granato do it?  Maybe.  If after a full search the powers that be decide Granato is the right guy, so be it.  But under no circumstances should they just hand the reins to him.

[Andrew Amerk]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

It's a fairly oversimplified position, but they need a coach that can understand his players' strengths & will build a system around what they can do rather than forcing a square peg (or several) into a round hole.

It's what Ruff did for close to 20 years.

My expectation is that Gallant can do this.  Can Granato do it?  Maybe.  If after a full search the powers that be decide Granato is the right guy, so be it.  But under no circumstances should they just hand the reins to him.

Donnie G seemed to have a good ability to adjust in the second games of this seasons odd back to back scheduling. If he is able to apply that to a regular schedule (playing Philly one night in November, and remembering what to adjust in the next game in January), I think he could do well. 

[Doohicksie]

8 hours ago, jsb said:

He was fired midway thru last year because of personal issues, he was 60-43-10 in his 1+ years there and was the one who started their turnaround a couple of years ago. He followed up Hitchcock if I'm not mistaken. 

Sounds familiar.

[Stoner]

15 hours ago, Taro T said:

It's a fairly oversimplified position, but they need a coach that can understand his players' strengths & will build a system around what they can do rather than forcing a square peg (or several) into a round hole.

It's what Ruff did for close to 20 years.

My expectation is that Gallant can do this.  Can Granato do it?  Maybe.  If after a full search the powers that be decide Granato is the right guy, so be it.  But under no circumstances should they just hand the reins to him.

So it's always going to be the chef looking into the fridge and making the best meal he can from the random ingredients someone else bought?

I understand the desire to run the Sabres that way in the short term. We need to make the playoffs. Now. But there has to be a more coherent way of doing things, which gets to the discussion above about how winning organizations operate.

We want to make delicious, low-fat, vegan meals (I mean, no one does, but play along). So the shopper gets those ingredients and the chef goes to work.

Edited May 10, 2021 by PASabreFan

[Gabrielor]

Whatever style Granato was using.

 

First one to work post-Ruff.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

So it's always going to be the chef looking into the fridge and making the best meal he can from the ingredients someone else bought?

I understand the desire to run the Sabres that way in the short term. We need to make the playoffs. Now. But there has to be a more coherent way of doing things, which gets to the discussion above about how winning organizations operate.

We want to make delicious, low-fat, vegan meals (I mean, no one does, but play along). So the shopper gets those ingredients and the chef goes to work.

Well, once the coach & GM are on the same page, the players brought in will fit the vision.  Right now, the only real consistency amongst the players on the roster are they have speed & are a bit clueless in their own end.

That kind of leads one to believe the coach needs to have a relentless forecheck & play a puck possession game.  If the goaltending gets fixed, running Ruff's post-lockout 1-3-1 neutral zone system would likely work & theoretically the kids would get better at it as the season went on like happened when the system was 1st introduced in Buffal9.

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

So it's always going to be the chef looking into the fridge and making the best meal he can from the random ingredients someone else bought?

I understand the desire to run the Sabres that way in the short term. We need to make the playoffs. Now. But there has to be a more coherent way of doing things, which gets to the discussion above about how winning organizations operate.

We want to make delicious, low-fat, vegan meals (I mean, no one does, but play along). So the shopper gets those ingredients and the chef goes to work.

I think you get to that after you achieve a modicum of winning. I honestly think that comes first. The banked wins will literally set a standard that aides in your quest to get your players to play the way you want them to - that aides in buy-in. Establish that you can win games at a 50/50 rate based on talent alone.

THEN, after that, you can get to work on the more detailed mold - you need to start sculpting from an established talent base. You shape the bulky block, you don't put the plaster on the rig already in shape. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

We need someone who can teach, who can coach well in games, who can construct lines and has the players respect.  He also needs to hold his players to account.  He also needs players willing to listen and willing to give maximum effort.  Barry Trotz.  The coach also needs a full roster.  Good goaltending helps.

Granato did alot of these things.  I liked went me moved Thompson off Mitt’s line when he had an awful game.  It would be interesting to hear what the players says about him. Right now I give him a 60% chance of keeping the job.

[pi2000]

24 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

We need someone who can teach, who can coach well in games, who can construct lines and has the players respect.  He also needs to hold his players to account.  He also needs players willing to listen and willing to give maximum effort.  Barry Trotz.  The coach also needs a full roster.  Good goaltending helps.

Granato did alot of these things.  I liked went me moved Thompson off Mitt’s line when he had an awful game.  It would be interesting to hear what the players says about him. Right now I give him a 60% chance of keeping the job.

I'd put it at more like 30%.  

Team defense is atrocious.     

[pi2000]

final TRPM... 

It's tough to win when your top offensive players are at the bottom.   

Their offensive output at ES is grossly outweighed by their liability as defenders.

==============================================================
BUF even strength goal differential through 56 games = -62
BUF even strength minutes played through 56 games = 2932.92
exp+/- is a function of %min played at ES and team ES goal diff
TRpm(team relative +/-) is the diff btwn actual+/- and exp+/-
%min is % of ES minutes played
==============================================================
Team  Player                   TRpm    GP    +/-  exp+/-  %min
BUF Jacob Bryson              12.27    38    -1  -13.27   21.4
BUF Rasmus Asplund             8.15    28     1   -7.15   11.5
BUF Kyle Okposo                7.99    35    -1   -8.99   14.5
BUF Jake McCabe                6.58    13     2   -4.58    7.4
BUF Henri Jokiharju            5.73    46   -11  -16.73   27.0
BUF Riley Sheahan              4.15    53    -8  -12.15   19.6
BUF Tage Thompson              4.07    38    -6  -10.07   16.2
BUF Jeff Skinner               3.78    53   -11  -14.78   23.8
BUF Curtis Lazar               3.68    33    -4   -7.68   12.4
BUF Cody Eakin                 1.91    46    -9  -10.91   17.6
BUF Brandon Montour            1.82    38   -13  -14.82   23.9
BUF Casey Mittelstadt          1.60    41   -10  -11.60   18.7
BUF Rasmus Ristolainen         0.83    49   -18  -18.83   30.4
BUF Tobias Rieder              0.79    44    -9   -9.79   15.8
BUF Anders Bjork              -0.16    15    -5   -4.84    7.8
BUF William Borgen            -0.87    10    -4   -3.13    5.0
BUF Jack Eichel               -1.48    21    -9   -7.52   12.1
BUF Drake Caggiula            -2.33    11    -5   -2.67    4.3
BUF Matt Irwin                -2.77    24   -10   -7.23   11.7
BUF Colin Miller              -3.68    48   -20  -16.32   26.3
BUF Mattias Samuelsson        -3.88    12    -8   -4.12    6.6
BUF Dylan Cozens              -4.12    41   -15  -10.88   17.5
BUF Arttu Ruotsalainen        -4.38    17    -9   -4.62    7.5
BUF Victor Olofsson           -5.99    56   -23  -17.01   27.4
BUF Taylor Hall               -8.72    37   -21  -12.28   19.8
BUF Sam Reinhart              -9.24    54   -28  -18.76   30.3
BUF Eric Staal               -10.37    32   -20   -9.63   15.5
BUF Rasmus Dahlin            -14.18    56   -36  -21.82   35.2
==============================================================

 

[PromoTheRobot]

10 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I'd put it at more like 30%.  

Team defense is atrocious.     

Atrocious against the best teams in the division. But I wonder how'd they do in a normal NHL season. 

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Team defense is atrocious.     

I agree.  So let us drill down.

How much of that is youth on the defence, with up to 5 players under 23?

How much of that is on the less experienced forwards?

I expect better defencive play from the veterans, so how much of the lack of awareness was the players

How much of the lack of team defence is on the coaches -- and for how long?

I don't have all the answers.