Fire Kevyn Adams

[dudacek]

37 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

 

There will be quite a bit of disagreement with this, but I’m counting this as Year One of the Adams Administration, as the bulk of the tear down happen this summer into the fall

I think you're right about the disagreement.

That said I agree with you. It's not that last year doesn't count, but I don't think he fully started being a GM the way Punch was the GM, or Scotty was the GM until Krueger was fired.

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

One thing Adams has done significantly better than Botterill is that he has tended to invest $750,000 and no assets into one-year contracts for his JAGs like Hinostroza and Pysyk, rather than $10 million and picks into long-term deals for JAGs like Sheary and Miller.

Seriously @GASabresIUFAN, how can you get upset by Butcher and ignore that?

Your statement seems to ignore the $8 mill KA spent on Hall and the 2 years 4.5 mill he wasted on Eakin.  Jbot also brought in a bunch of JAGs at similar prices his first year like Pouliot, Wilson, Josefson, and Nolan.  He also brought in effective players like Scandella and Pominville.  KA is paying Vinnie and Pysyk more then 750K.  I also wrote in the off-season that Vinnie should be one of our targets this past off-season.  

As to Miller and Sheary. I didn't like the Miller deal at all.  I wrote then that he was "Baloo 2"  I wrote that he was defensively challenged and that the deal only made sense if Jbot was trading Risto.  He didn't.  I wouldn't have made this deal and it's a primary reason I loath the Butcher trade.  He is just a worse LHD version of Miller.  I don't see any value in bringing in defensively challenged D on a young team that needs to prevent goals and needs improved in zone D play.  

As to Sheary, it was a very reasonable gamble.  He gave us 34 points in a secondary role in year one and then he got Ralph Kruegered in year 2.  The price was a conditional 4th round pick.  This acquisition was also in year two of Jbot's tenure to add forward depth to an organization that lacked forward depth from TM.  

So far Jbot teams have been better then the crap KA has foisted upon us.  We had 62 pts year 1, 76 year 2, and 68 in 69 games year 3.  

So far KA has given us 56 pts in his first 82 games.  

I fully understand why people think Jbot failed at building a competitive NHL roster.  He did.  He never replaced ROR and I can't remember how many threads I started imploring him to find a 2C.  Sadly the 2C we needed was already on the roster in Reinhart.  Despite that fact, his teams actually improved in each of his three years as GM.  Not enough to satisfy anyone, but they did improve.  

However so far KA's NHL roster decisions have been worse.  He took a team the earned 1 pt per game, and turned it into the worst team in the NHL despite spending to the cap and getting the hottest UFA that off-season in Hall.  That's a hell of a legacy.  The best thing anyone can say about his deals is that they aren't long-term deals.  Great, but I have zero confidence is his ability to evaluate NHL talent and the teams needs going forward despite having a virtual clean slate to work with.  He hasn't even been able to figure out in two seasons that an NHL team actually needs goaltending or that you don't add defensively challenged D to a team that is already defensively challenged.

The truth is that the best thing to say about Jbot is that he drafted well and KA looks to have done the same.  I wonder if your going to give KA the same credit (or lack thereof) for drafting Power that you do for Jbot's drafting of Dahlin.   Can we call Power KA's "blind man pick?"

Edited December 11, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

One thing Adams has done significantly better than Botterill is that he has tended to invest $750,000 and no assets into one-year contracts for his JAGs like Hinostroza and Pysyk, rather than $10 million and picks into long-term deals for JAGs like Sheary and Miller.

JBot will forever be tied to the Skinner deal, one of the worst in hockey history, but I do remember quite a few people on this site saying he should be paid 7 or even 8 million a year on a multi year deal and that would have been only marginally better. 

Sheary imo was a fine pick up. He's still playing in Washington, a very good team, so one has to think it's us, not him. 

Miller was not worth the trade, but the D was so thin when JBot got here he just rolled the dice on anybody he could get. Ended up with a big pile of jags but again, Montour's playing regular minutes in Florida. Go figure. 

Even E-Rod is playing well for Pittsburgh. 

After a while you really have to start to wonder...........

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

JBot will forever be tied to the Skinner deal, one of the worst in hockey history, but I do remember quite a few people on this site saying he should be paid 7 or even 8 million a year on a multi year deal and that would have been only marginally better. 

Sheary imo was a fine pick up. He's still playing in Washington, a very good team, so one has to think it's us, not him. 

Miller was not worth the trade, but the D was so thin when JBot got here he just rolled the dice on anybody he could get. Ended up with a big pile of jags but again, Montour's playing regular minutes in Florida. Go figure. 

Even E-Rod is playing well for Pittsburgh. 

After a while you really have to start to wonder...........

If Housley and RK were terrible coaches?  They were with RK being the worse of the two.

Edited December 11, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

If Housley and RK were terrible coaches?  They were.  

Yes, they definitely were. I can see the Housley hire though. He had developed a hotshot rep as a D coach, the theme was the new style NHL, new style coaches, fast, puck moving D, it sort of made sense if that's your plan. He failed of course, but it was a reasonable hire at the time. Ralph? Well I have no idea what the thought process was there. Out of the box, rolling the dice, silver tongue talker in his interview, it was weird from the get go and the results were horrible. 

The question really though is why did we stick with the new unproven types (Granato) over the Gallants or Boudreaus etc.   

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yes, they definitely were. I can see the Housley hire though. He had developed a hotshot rep as a D coach, the theme was the new style NHL, new style coaches, fast, puck moving D, it sort of made sense if that's your plan. He failed of course, but it was a reasonable hire at the time. Ralph? Well I have no idea what the thought process was there. Out of the box, rolling the dice, silver tongue talker in his interview, it was weird from the get go and the results were horrible. 

The question really though is why did we stick with the new unproven types (Granato) over the Gallants or Boudreaus etc.   

GM's also.  That's all on the Pegula's. One wonders if they had just left Regier and Ruff in place and put the same resources behind them, would we have been much better off.  Admittedly Regier's drafting had been awful in his last 10 years, but was that Regier or that he had no money for real scouting under Golisano and Quinn?

[pi2000]

Adams, with his moves as GM, finally has this franchise on the right track.

Granato on the other hand, yikes.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

.  I wonder if your going to give KA the same credit (or lack thereof) for drafting Power that you do for Jbot's drafting of Dahlin.   Can we call Power KA's "blind man pick?"

That’s a great question. Probably?

I think we can agree that the majority of the hockey world ranked Dahlin as the guy and would have been shocked if Botterill had picked anyone else. Hindsight so far has shown it wasn’t the slam dunk we thought.

I think we can also agree that Power was the consensus #1, just not as highly thought of, or as much of a slam dunk as Dahlin was. Time has yet to give us much perspective.

What do you think?

[PerreaultForever]

52 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Adams, with his moves as GM, finally has this franchise on the right track.

Granato on the other hand, yikes.

Maybe, but it's too early to tell on Adams. It's easier to tear down than build. He has the prospects, he has the picks, what he needs to do now is find some decent veterans to play with these kids and more importantly some big strong men to protect them next year cause a number of them are talented but not ready to take NHL punishment. 

As for Granato, he doesn't have much to work with and I don't fault him. Can't see how you could put this line up together in any better way. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

That’s a great question. Probably?

I think we can agree that the majority of the hockey world ranked Dahlin as the guy and would have been shocked if Botterill had picked anyone else. Hindsight so far has shown it wasn’t the slam dunk we thought.

I think we can also agree that Power was the consensus #1, just not as highly thought of, or as much of a slam dunk as Dahlin was. Time has yet to give us much perspective.

What do you think?

I honestly give Jbot and KA the credit for drafting whomever they draft.  I don’t discount them because they won the lottery.  We have seen GMs make terrible picks even at or near the top of the draft and those mistakes can set a franchise back years.  See the Nylander pick for example.

[Hank]

This season is going exactly according to plan. Building the foundation. Slowly. Correctly. Playoffs in 23/24. I'm all in. Love me some KA. 

[SwampD]

57 minutes ago, Hank said:

This season is going exactly according to plan. Building the foundation. Slowly. Correctly. Playoffs in 23/24. I'm all in. Love me some KA. 

JFC. Kill me.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

This season is going exactly according to plan. Building the foundation. Slowly. Correctly. Playoffs in 23/24. I'm all in. Love me some KA. 

I think 2023 is the reality. They could surprise next year but they are still building after a long time of questionable drafting. We should be happy botterill was ok at drafting and Adams finally has his management in place to continue being I think good at drafting 

[SabresVet]

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

One thing Adams has done significantly better than Botterill is that he has tended to invest $750,000 and no assets into one-year contracts for his JAGs like Hinostroza and Pysyk, rather than $10 million and picks into long-term deals for JAGs like Sheary and Miller.

Seriously @GASabresIUFAN, how can you get upset by Butcher and ignore that?

Adams has a lot smaller budget to use as compared to Botterill.  Doesn't make one GM better than other, but context is key.  

14 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

JBot will forever be tied to the Skinner deal, one of the worst in hockey history, but I do remember quite a few people on this site saying he should be paid 7 or even 8 million a year on a multi year deal and that would have been only marginally better. 

Sheary imo was a fine pick up. He's still playing in Washington, a very good team, so one has to think it's us, not him. 

Miller was not worth the trade, but the D was so thin when JBot got here he just rolled the dice on anybody he could get. Ended up with a big pile of jags but again, Montour's playing regular minutes in Florida. Go figure. 

Even E-Rod is playing well for Pittsburgh. 

After a while you really have to start to wonder...........

Do you believe Botterill was the decisive factor in signing Skinner to that contract?  

[PerreaultForever]

43 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

Do you believe Botterill was the decisive factor in signing Skinner to that contract?  

Was Adams the decisive factor in signing Hall? idk in either case how much Terry or Kim meddled in either, only they know. 

Skinner's agent played Botterill though and it appears that Botterill felt he had to sign him at any cost rather than risk the ire he'd receive for letting him walk (which would have occurred among fans in general without the hindsight). I would think Botterill felt trapped and feared he'd lose his job if Skinner walked. Irregardless, he was the GM at the time, so it's on him. 

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

This season is going exactly according to plan. Building the foundation. Slowly. Correctly. Playoffs in 23/24. I'm all in. Love me some KA. 

I'm still thinking 23/24 at the earliest. All our D will still be under 25 then and Cozens won't yet be in his prime. TB and FLA will still be good-to-great in 2 years. DET on the upswing, TOR still should be decent. Bergeron and Marchand should still be good in 2 years, too. It's not like the division is projecting to be weak or facing a lot of teardowns that haven't already started in the next two seasons.

4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Was Adams the decisive factor in signing Hall? idk in either case how much Terry or Kim meddled in either, only they know. 

Skinner's agent played Botterill though and it appears that Botterill felt he had to sign him at any cost rather than risk the ire he'd receive for letting him walk (which would have occurred among fans in general without the hindsight). I would think Botterill felt trapped and feared he'd lose his job if Skinner walked. Irregardless, he was the GM at the time, so it's on him. 

Skinner should have either been extended upon completion of the trade, or rented at the deadline for a 1st. He would have been the top scoring threat winger, worthy of a late-round 1st and a prospect as a rental (like Evander Kane was traded for). Instead, we'll end up buying him out in after 2 or 3 more seasons because he'll be too much on the cap as we try to re-sign the next core.

[Nitro60]

I like the rebuild that he is doing.  Give it time.  

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Skinner should have either been extended upon completion of the trade, or rented at the deadline for a 1st. He would have been the top scoring threat winger, worthy of a late-round 1st and a prospect as a rental (like Evander Kane was traded for). Instead, we'll end up buying him out in after 2 or 3 more seasons because he'll be too much on the cap as we try to re-sign the next core.

From everything I have seen, the 2026-2027 season is going to be a problem as far as Skinner's contract.  No matter what year you buy him out before, there is a big hit that year.  Whether he is on the team or not, the Roster is going to have to allocate $6-$7 Million dollars toward him during that season

 

[LGR4GM]

I think Adams gave Krueger and Terry what they wanted in 2020 even though he had doubts. When he went up in Flames he convinced Terry that it was time to step back and do this right. Terry agreed and Adams really become a true GM the day he fired Krueger. That's where I start measuring what he does. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by LGR4GM

[Hank]

48 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Adams gave Krueger and Terry what they wanted in 2020 even though he had doubts. When he went up in Flames he convinced Terry that it was time to step back and do this right. Terry agreed and Adams really become a true GM the day he fired Krueger. That's where I start measuring what he does. 

Agreed. 

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Adams gave Krueger and Terry what they wanted in 2020 even though he had doubts. When he went up in Flames he convinced Terry that it was time to step back and do this right. Terry agreed and Adams really become a true GM the day he fired Krueger. That's where I start measuring what he does. 

So You’re saying Adams knew it wouldn’t work? 

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

So You’re saying Adams knew it wouldn’t work? 

I think he hoped it would but doubted it would. Hence why he favored shorter deals. 

[SabresVet]

23 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Was Adams the decisive factor in signing Hall? idk in either case how much Terry or Kim meddled in either, only they know. 

Skinner's agent played Botterill though and it appears that Botterill felt he had to sign him at any cost rather than risk the ire he'd receive for letting him walk (which would have occurred among fans in general without the hindsight). I would think Botterill felt trapped and feared he'd lose his job if Skinner walked. Irregardless, he was the GM at the time, so it's on him. 

You did not answer the question.  Do you believe the dominant voice in re-signing Skinner to that contract was Botterill?

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

25 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

You did not answer the question.  Do you believe the dominant voice in re-signing Skinner to that contract was Botterill?

 

The fans and this board certainly wanted him re-signed at any price.  

[SabresVet]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The fans and this board certainly wanted him re-signed at any price.  

So did the owner.