Fire Kevyn Adams

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I feel like they do have a plan. But people can't bear to wait another 3 seasons for it to develop. That's itchiness for a quick fix got us where we are now. ZFG GM Tim Murray emptying our prospect pool for nut jobs and bad eggs. (You can guess who I'm referring to.)

Nothing ever works out exactly as you plan, and the goaltending issues this year are an example of that. But we have players that are shining at every level: NHL, AHL, college and juniors. We just have to fight the urge to do something rash for a quick fix.

To be honest my bigger worry is whether Buffalo is a viable sports market going forward. I think we all took for granted or friends across the border. But that extra couple hundred thousand population makes a the difference for not only the Sabres but the Bandits.

It's really sad too. When I was 11 I used to pedal my bike over the Peace Bridge and it was no big deal. Now it's a freaking interrogation. We are getting too used to not visiting each other. We can't lose that closeness. If people feel like it's too much bother to come to town for games I don't know what our long term prospects are.

I  don't think anyone is looking for a quick fix. What I want and others want is reasonable efforts to support a bunch of hard working kids so that they have a chance for success even in this early stage of the rebuild 8.0.  So far KA hasn't given them that chance.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I  don't think anyone is looking for a quick fix. What I want and others want is reasonable efforts to support a bunch of hard working kids so that they have a chance for success even in this early stage of the rebuild 8.0.  So far KA hasn't given them that chance.

That's easy to ask for but tougher to accomplish. I doubt there's anyone good on the beach right now. And the worst time to go shopping is when you're desperate.

Adams didn't panic with the Eichel trade but it took forever to get done. I don't know how soon a goalie deal can come together 

Edited December 6, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Scottysabres]

The team is doing just fine. Scoring is up, for all involved, games are entertaining, especially for opponents and their fanbases.

All is well in hockey heaven, trust the process,, nothing to see here, moving along.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

Here here.  I think GMKA’s original plan was to have Ullmark return.  When Boston offered Linus that contract, Adams punted.  Considering we have UPL, Levi and Portillo waiting in the wings, I don’t blame him for that.  His next plan was for UPL to take over the goaltending reigns.  After a suboptimal preseason, that plan was quickly altered.  Anderson became the main guy with Toker backing him up until UPL was ready.  Not ideal but not disastrous.  Then Anderson gets hurt, Toker goes down and we are in goalie hell.  Hard to kill GMKA when plans A,B,C and D didn’t work out. 

 

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

I agree that the original plan was to sign Ullie for 2 years until some of the goalie prospects were ready for the NHL, as Inky stated below.  When the Bruins made the kind of offer that Adams was not prepared to do he changed courses.  Anderson would have been fine and Toker would have spelled him nicely.  Dell was insurance.  Injuries happened and here we are.  

I agree with Inky that we can't blame Adams for the injuries and I actually respect him for sticking with his plan and not going off half-cocked.

You can't blame KA for bringing in a 40 year old goalie?  What were the odds of a 40 year old goalie lasting an entire season without injury? Nearly zero.  I researched this issue when we signed him and in modern hockey only 2 or 3 goalies over 40 ever played over 40 games in a season.  A competent GM should have known this.  This means he needed to have a good backup for his 40 year old goalie. Instead he relied on a career AAAA goalie in Tokarski and a 30 something goalie with horribly declining stats for the prior 3 years.  

Essentially he went from plan A to plan Tank and created the situation you see before you today.  He is completely responsible for the mess.  

The sad part of this mess is that it was completely avoidable. He is wasting 2.8 on Butcher and now another 2.35 in Subban, Anderson and Dell.  That's 5 mill he could have and should have easily invested in a real starting goaltender with Tokarski already here.  

@inkman you say he punted because he had UPL, Portillo and Levi in the wings.  He didn't. Levi had yet to be acquired and no reasonable talent evaluator after UPL was 36th in the AHL last season in save % would think he was going to be ready to start in the NHL anytime soon.  At best he needed to have bridge goaltending for 2-3 years until a prospect was ready, but it was also just as possible that UPL is not an NHL goalie and that the college kid (Portillo) wasn't going to be ready for 4 or more years when he let Ullmark walk.  Honestly his decision was penny wise and pound foolish.

[JohnC]

16 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I feel like they do have a plan. But people can't bear to wait another 3 seasons for it to develop. That itchiness for a quick fix got us where we are now. ZFG GM Tim Murray emptying our prospect pool for nut jobs and bad eggs. (You can guess who I'm referring to.)

Nothing ever works out exactly as you plan, and the goaltending issues this year are an example of that. But we have players that are shining at every level: NHL, AHL, college and juniors. We just have to fight the urge to do something rash for a quick fix.

To be honest my bigger worry is whether Buffalo is a viable sports market going forward. I think we all took for granted our friends across the border. But that extra couple hundred thousand population makes a big difference for not only the Sabres but the Bandits.

It's really sad too. When I was 11 I used to pedal my bike over the Peace Bridge and it was no big deal. Now it's a freaking interrogation. We are getting too used to not visiting each other. We can't lose that closeness. If people feel like it's too much bother to come to town for games I don't know what our long term prospects are.

When KA took over it was understood that this was not a quick fix task. Fans understood what KA meant when he stated he was going to start the process of rebuilding the right way with players who wanted to be here. This was clearly rebuilding process understood by all. But that doesn't mean that the team within the confines of a rebuild  can't be competitive and entertaining, especially after being subjected to a team that has been stuck in the mud for a decade. 

I'm not a KA basher. With the exception of addressing the goalie issue in a meaningful way I believe he has done a good job in not only adding talent to the system but also upgrading the staffing within the organization. Where I and many others have intense criticism for him is not having an acceptable fallback position to the most important position on the ice. It went beyond being a bad miscalculation. It was a display of gross incompetence that has to a visible degree set back the rebuild . 

There is no doubt that without the Canadian market (due to covid) to buttress the local US market it has had a major affect on attendance. But what has had a greater depressing effect on the market is a half a generation of ineptitude that has made this market steadily wither. You are misguided if you are assigning more blame to the fans than to the organization under the current owners. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, JohnC said:

When KA took over it was understood that this was not a quick fix task. Fans understood what KA meant when he stated he was going to start the process of rebuilding the right way with players who wanted to be here. This was clearly rebuilding process understood by all. But that doesn't mean that the team within the confines of a rebuild  can't be competitive and entertaining, especially after being subjected to a team that has been stuck in the mud for a decade. 

I'm not a KA basher. With the exception of addressing the goalie issue in a meaningful way I believe he has done a good job in not only adding talent to the system but also upgrading the staffing within the organization. Where I and many others have intense criticism for him is not having an acceptable fallback position to the most important position on the ice. It went beyond being a bad miscalculation. It was a display of gross incompetence that has to a visible degree set back the rebuild . 

There is no doubt that without the Canadian market (due to covid) to buttress the local US market it has had a major affect on attendance. But what has had a greater depressing effect on the market is a half a generation of ineptitude that has made this market steadily wither. You are misguided if you are assigning more blame to the fans than to the organization under the current owners. 

Did you see the crowd photo for the Bandits home opener? Explain that to me.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

If KA were willing to give Ullmark a 3-year deal @ $5MM per year, he could've, and should've, found another goalie for that kind of contract instead of settling for the losers the Sabres currently have at the position, which he should've known would've chained an anchor to a team struggling to keep their heads above water.

They've now lost 14 out of 17 and look utterly lost and like they expect to lose.  We've seen this movie before.

There is an unacceptably high risk that another bottom-3 finish will suffuse this group of kids with an ineradicable stink of losing in the same way the prior tank did to the prior group.

Do we know this?  I don't believe this to be the case.  he wanted 2 years of a know entity to keep the team steady while in growth and transition mode.  When that did nto work he did not want to disrupt his plan for this season by bringing in a *stud* goalie.  Bring in many low end low priced models and see who was playing well and who wasn't and just see what happens.

Adams wanted two years of Ullie to mke sure the goalie prospects were that much more ready for prime time.  When that didn't work out he went out and found many goalies on 1 year cheap deals to just hold the fort and see what happens after this season.  He said that he was not going to do anything that limited the growth of the players we have that will be the team going forward.

The losses were expected.  The goalie situation is now a disaster, but it's too late to do anything even if Adams wanted to other than bringing in other low level goalies like Subban.  It seems that this group is more interested in learning how to play together than the previous group.  They will be fine.

 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Did you see the crowd photo for the Bandits home opener? Explain that to me.

No. 

Have the Bandits been bad for a decade? 

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, JohnC said:

No. 

Have the Bandits been bad for a decade? 

Hardly. 

[JoeSchmoe]

Is there a goalie prospect anywhere in the world right now that looks as good as Levi?

If I'm Adams, I'm not spending a single pick or prospect on a goalie with him waiting in the wings. In fact, if he plays out the season at the pace he's doing right now, I'm signing him to play THIS year at the end of the season.

Even if he lets in DOUBLE the number of goals he's letting in now, he'd still be at a .906 save percentage. Given the garbage we've seen otherwise, I'd take it.

[PromoTheRobot]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

No. 

Have the Bandits been bad for a decade? 

4 NLL Championships and 11 division titles, including 2019, the last season played. The Bandits have led the league in attendance for forever.

Edited December 6, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Sabres Fan in NS]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

You can't blame KA for bringing in a 40 year old goalie?  What were the odds of a 40 year old goalie lasting an entire season without injury? Nearly zero.  I researched this issue when we signed him and in modern hockey only 2 or 3 goalies over 40 ever played over 40 games in a season.  A competent GM should have known this.  This means he needed to have a good backup for his 40 year old goalie. Instead he relied on a career AAAA goalie in Tokarski and a 30 something goalie with horribly declining stats for the prior 3 years.  

Essentially he went from plan A to plan Tank and created the situation you see before you today.  He is completely responsible for the mess.  

The sad part of this mess is that it was completely avoidable. He is wasting 2.8 on Butcher and now another 2.35 in Subban, Anderson and Dell.  That's 5 mill he could have and should have easily invested in a real starting goaltender with Tokarski already here.  

@inkman you say he punted because he had UPL, Portillo and Levi in the wings.  He didn't. Levi had yet to be acquired and no reasonable talent evaluator after UPL was 36th in the AHL last season in save % would think he was going to be ready to start in the NHL anytime soon.  At best he needed to have bridge goaltending for 2-3 years until a prospect was ready, but it was also just as possible that UPL is not an NHL goalie and that the college kid (Portillo) wasn't going to be ready for 4 or more years when he let Ullmark walk.  Honestly his decision was penny wise and pound foolish.

Adams brought in many goalies and knew that all were a gamble.  He felt that someone would be able to play at a reasonable level for some games and then others would take over.  Adams knew what he was getting into.  It became the plan when 2 years of Ullie didn't materialize.

I will not fault Adams for stating his plan and sticking to it.

[PromoTheRobot]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

No. 

Have the Bandits been bad for a decade? 

This is shocking.

[JoeSchmoe]

3 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Even if he lets in DOUBLE the number of goals he's letting in now, he'd still be at a .906 save percentage. Given the garbage we've seen otherwise, I'd take it.

Correction: .910!

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

This season is nothing like the tank years.

Adams did not trade everyone for picks and / or low end long-term prospects in a desparate attempt to draft #1.

This is all about growth of the young players that will be the Sabres going forward.  

The goalie situation is not good, but if Adams brought in anyone other than the goalies he has it would be a direct contradiction of his stated plan and goal for this year.

Look at how far most of the players have come this year.

To the bolded, not to quibble, but it ISN'T ALL about growth of the young players.  That is one goal.  The other is to add more high end prospects to the pipeline & that goal is best served by losing at present.

The 2 are nearly mutually exclusive sets & there isn't a whole lot of overlap.  The team was in that sweet spot for ~2 weeks after having been heavily skewed towards the development/growth role the 1st 2-ish weeks.  We've now been heavily skewed towards losing the last 3 or so weeks.

Nobody honestly expects a true fix to the goaltending at present.  But at least venting releases the steam.  It's shouting at the sky, but it's all we've got.  Maybe Adams pulls off 1 more trade.  Maybe Subban isn't going to miss time & Tokarski is ready to come back & the 2 can get them back into that sweet spot.  Wouldn't have money on either.

And honestly, expect Adams is still looking for that "sweet spot" which isn't sweet to those of us watching & the even fewer spending money on this because they're still losing in that scenario but doing so in an entertaining non-spirit crushing way.  (Don't believe he wants to get back to the play of the 1st 2 weeks, at least not consistently this year.  Next year, sure, but not this year.)

Getting entertained for a month was good & about all we realistically could've hoped for this year.  (Which in itself is a problem.)  But what we've gotten the last 3 weeks has included unwatchable games - Calgary & Carolina definitely.  Would include others but those aren't as clear cut.  In the entertainment industry, unwatchable is a bad thing.  😉

 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

Adams brought in many goalies and knew that all were a gamble.  He felt that someone would be able to play at a reasonable level for some games and then others would take over.  Adams knew what he was getting into.  It became the plan when 2 years of Ullie didn't materialize.

I will not fault Adams for stating his plan and sticking to it.

In general, I have little problem with how Adams has handled his responsibilities. But I do, as many others, have  stinging criticism for him on how he has handled the goaltending position, the most important position on the ice. Ullmark was a free agent. Even if the GM felt that he was going to be able to sign him he should have had a better fallback position just in case it didn't work out. Not doing that has put this team in a difficult competitive position when it needed to that way. 

Compare how Yzerman addressed the position without giving much away in assets to how Adams handled the goalie situation? There were simply better options for our GM to resort to if Ullmark couldn't be signed. 

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2021/07/22/detroit-red-wings-acquire-goaltender-alex-nedeljkovic-carolina/8058296002/

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I will respectfully disagree with anyone that is bashing Adams for the goaltending situation this year.  I understand your frustrations, but this season was never about winning.

Back to work for NS The Ghost of Doohickie ...

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

I will respectfully disagree with anyone that is bashing Adams for the goaltending situation this year.  I understand your frustrations, but this season was never about winning.

Back to work for NS The Ghost of Doohickie ...

Well then…I hope the Pegula’s realize that this season was never about fans paying a lot of money to see bad hockey. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by LabattBlue

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

Well then…I hope the Pegula’s realize that this season was never about fans paying a lot of money to see bad hockey. 

I'm sure they expected low attendance and gear sales.

[LabattBlue]

Just now, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

I'm sure they expected low attendance and gear sales.

The question is how many seasons of low attendance will they accept?  Crowds aren’t going from 7,000 to 19,000 in a years time. 

[JoeSchmoe]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

The question is how many seasons of low attendance will they accept?  Crowds aren’t going from 7,000 to 19,000 in a years time. 

If the team gets good it'll happen fast... Especially if season ticket holders can start counting on Canadians again to subsidize they're tickets.

[GASabresIUFAN]

35 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

Adams brought in many goalies and knew that all were a gamble.  He felt that someone would be able to play at a reasonable level for some games and then others would take over.  Adams knew what he was getting into.  It became the plan when 2 years of Ullie didn't materialize.

I will not fault Adams for stating his plan and sticking to it.

KA has never stuck to a plan since he arrived.  Last season he loaded up on vets to try to get over the hump and then switched to rebuild when the first plan failed. 

This off-season was no different.  He started with plan A which was re-signed UIllmark to properly support the youth movement.  When that failed, instead of sticking to that plan by finding an adequate replacement he switched again to Tank 2.0.  

But a funny thing happened on the way to the tank.  The kids started scoring and playing hard.  As @dudacek pointed out, when this team gets just decent (not even good) goaltending they win and when they don't they lose.  We are scoring at a playoff caliber level despite having so many JAGs at the forward and defense.  If KA was willing to change plans so quickly in the off-season, it's reasonable to hope that he'd be willing to revert back to plan A when the team shows that it's worthy of that support.  This team has and KA should do his job and give them the support they have earned.    

TO those that say that this season was never about winning, you are both right and wrong.  Yes, it was about the growth and development of the young core, but it is also about changing the culture from one where losing is acceptable to one where it isn't.  By going for Tank 2.0, KA is still signaling that losing is just fine.  Not exactly the way to turn this ship in a better direction.

Edited December 6, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

If the team gets good it'll happen fast... Especially if season ticket holders can start counting on Canadians again to subsidize they're tickets.

Define “fast”?   

[SabresVet]

 

17 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Is there a goalie prospect anywhere in the world right now that looks as good as Levi?

If I'm Adams, I'm not spending a single pick or prospect on a goalie with him waiting in the wings. In fact, if he plays out the season at the pace he's doing right now, I'm signing him to play THIS year at the end of the season.

Even if he lets in DOUBLE the number of goals he's letting in now, he'd still be at a .906 save percentage. Given the garbage we've seen otherwise, I'd take it.

I can't see Levi playing as a dependable NHL starter for 3 years.  Portillo around the same time frame (beginning with the 2021-22 season).

That means you're talking 2-3 seasons (2021-22, 2022-23, and perhaps 2023-24) of temporary options?  I can't believe that was the plan, or that they'd put all their eggs in the UPL basket during that time.    

I guess they assumed Ullmark would be back on a 3 year deal and when that didn't happen...they had nothing but stopgap options.     

[Sabres Fan in NS]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

KA has never stuck to a plan since he arrived.  Last season he loaded up on vets to try to get over the hump and then switched to rebuild when the first plan failed. 

This off-season was no different.  He started with plan A which was re-signed UIllmark to properly support the youth movement.  When that failed, instead of sticking to that plan by finding an adequate replacement he switched again to Tank 2.0.  

But a funny thing happened on the way to the tank.  The kids started scoring and playing hard.  As @dudacek pointed out, when this team gets just decent (not even good) goaltending they win and when they don't they lose.  We are scoring at a playoff caliber level despite having so many JAGs at the forward and defense.  If KA was willing to change plans so quickly in the off-season, it's reasonable to hope that he'd be willing to revert back to plan A when the team shows that it's worthy of that support.  This team has and KA should do his job and give them the support they have earned.    

TO those that say that this season was never about winning, you are both right and wrong.  Yes, it was about the growth and development of the young core, but it is also about changing the culture from one where losing is acceptable to one where it isn't.  By going for Tank 2.0, KA is still signaling that losing is just fine.  Not exactly the way to turn this ship in a better direction.

Point 1 ... Adams went to Jack and talked about Jack sticking around and trying to make him happy.  Adams then made some trades and signings to try one last kick at the can.  It failed, but he did execute that plan.

Point 2 ... signing Ullie was all about having a familiar anchor for 2 more years.  It was not about retaining Ullie at any cost becasue he was the goalie of now and in the future.  Ullie bolted so part 2 of that plan was initiated.  Same plan ... someone to hold the fort while goalie prospects that were going to be the goalies of the future further developed.  Again, this is not a tank.  Signing the goalies that Adams did is not a tank move.

Point 3 ... not a tank ...

Point 4 ... not a tank ...

Point 5 ... not a tank ...

...