Eichel/Sabres situation similar to JoeThornton/Bruins?

[gilbert11]

I think there is some similarity of Eichel’s relationship with the Sabres to Joe Thornton’s when he got traded by Boston to San Jose.

Thornton was selected first overall by the Bruins in the 1997 draft.  (Jack of course was taken 2nd) 

Thornton’s career started out slower than Jacks’s as he had only 7 points in 55 games his first season and then 41 pts in 81 games in his second season.

Thornton eventually became a point per game player and exploded in his 6th season (the 2002/03 season) with 36 goals and 65 assists for 101 points in 77 games.  
 

Thornton was named team captain prior to that 2002/03 season. (Eichel was named captain before the 2018/19 season and had his best season to that point with 28 goals and 54 assists for 82 points in 77 games).

Thornton regressed in the season following his career year. (Eichel regressed this season after arguably his best season in 2019/20)

Thornton eventually became unhappy with the state of the Boston franchise and upset with criticism of his play. He was under heavy scrutiny for his leadership style and was criticized for not raising the level of his play in the playoffs. (Some similarities to Eichel)

The Bruins were struggling to begin the 2005/05 season so he was traded to San Jose for forwards Marco Sturm and Wayne Primeau and defenseman Brad Stuart, the 3rd overall pick of the 1998 draft.

 

Now, if the Sabres were to trade Eichel, I sure the he!! hope they get a better return. Marco Sturm became a 20+ goal, 40+ point player for the Sharks and continued that pace for 5 seasons with the Bruins before his career fizzled out. Primeau was mediocre with the Sabres and continued as such after the trade to Boston at the age of 29.  Brad Stuart made the NHL ALL-Rookie team in 2000 but never lived up to his high draft position.  Overall, a mediocre return.

[Weave]

Thornton is a fair comparable.  Buffalo related, so is Joe Ferguson.

[Drag0nDan]

4 hours ago, gilbert11 said:

I think there is some similarity of Eichel’s relationship with the Sabres to Joe Thornton’s when he got traded by Boston to San Jose.

Thornton was selected first overall by the Bruins in the 1997 draft.  (Jack of course was taken 2nd) 

Thornton’s career started out slower than Jacks’s as he had only 7 points in 55 games his first season and then 41 pts in 81 games in his second season.

Thornton eventually became a point per game player and exploded in his 6th season (the 2002/03 season) with 36 goals and 65 assists for 101 points in 77 games.  
 

Thornton was named team captain prior to that 2002/03 season. (Eichel was named captain before the 2018/19 season and had his best season to that point with 28 goals and 54 assists for 82 points in 77 games).

Thornton regressed in the season following his career year. (Eichel regressed this season after arguably his best season in 2019/20)

Thornton eventually became unhappy with the state of the Boston franchise and upset with criticism of his play. He was under heavy scrutiny for his leadership style and was criticized for not raising the level of his play in the playoffs. (Some similarities to Eichel)

The Bruins were struggling to begin the 2005/05 season so he was traded to San Jose for forwards Marco Sturm and Wayne Primeau and defenseman Brad Stuart, the 3rd overall pick of the 1998 draft.

 

Now, if the Sabres were to trade Eichel, I sure the he!! hope they get a better return. Marco Sturm became a 20+ goal, 40+ point player for the Sharks and continued that pace for 5 seasons with the Bruins before his career fizzled out. Primeau was mediocre with the Sabres and continued as such after the trade to Boston at the age of 29.  Brad Stuart made the NHL ALL-Rookie team in 2000 but never lived up to his high draft position.  Overall, a mediocre return.

Returns are always pretty bad.  Look at Seguin too.  And thats one of the best run organizations in hockey.

[ParkMeadow]

12 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Returns are always pretty bad.  Look at Seguin too.  And thats one of the best run organizations in hockey.

Bingo!  They take the long view based on a very successful plan.  The experienced management team is allowed by the hands-off ownership to build the Bruins to play the style that consistently works.

If certain individual players do not fit that plan, they become expendable, and management has the confidence to make moves knowing that the plan will continue to work.  It can also be argued that some of those trades (Seguin, Hamilton) were addition by subtraction, resulting in a better locker room environment even if the overall talent was slightly lessened.

Experienced hockey management team and hands-off ownership.  We can only dream...

[OhMyDahlin]

If we're trading Eichel, I'm sending him to Los Angeles and trying to get Alex Turcotte and Gabe Vilardi, plus some other pieces.

That gives us Turcotte, Cozens and Vilardi as a center spine...and they still have Eichel, Kopitar, Byfield and Kupari as a center spine.

Plus, I'd add Matty Beniers to our center spine in this upcoming draft...he's a future Selke winner.

Edited March 8, 2021 by OhMyDahlin

[Doohicksie]

5 hours ago, gilbert11 said:

He was under heavy scrutiny for his leadership style and was criticized for not raising the level of his play in the playoffs. (Some similarities to Eichel)

[Stoner]

11 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

If we're trading Eichel, I'm sending him to Los Angeles and trying to get Alex Turcotte and Gabe Vilardi, plus some other pieces.

That gives us Turcotte, Cozens and Vilardi as a center spine...and they still have Eichel, Kopitar, Byfield and Kupari as a center spine.

Plus, I'd add Matty Beniers to our center spine in this upcoming draft...he's a future Selke winner.

Dang. Will he win the Selke the same season Dahlin wins the Norris?

[Sabres forever]

Jack Eichel is not a leader. McDavid is. Jack should just be left to play his game and the C should be on a players jersey that cares about the whole game.

[#freejame]

1 hour ago, OhMyDahlin said:

If we're trading Eichel, I'm sending him to Los Angeles and trying to get Alex Turcotte and Gabe Vilardi, plus some other pieces.

That gives us Turcotte, Cozens and Vilardi as a center spine...and they still have Eichel, Kopitar, Byfield and Kupari as a center spine.

Plus, I'd add Matty Beniers to our center spine in this upcoming draft...he's a future Selke winner.

Add Kaliyev and Bjornfot and I’ll take it. Would prefer Byfield over Turcotte though. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Sabres forever said:

Jack Eichel is not a leader. McDavid is. Jack should just be left to play his game and the C should be on a players jersey that cares about the whole game.

Cool is that why Edmonton has made the playoffs once in the last decade. Great leadership. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by LGR4GM

[Claude Balls]

9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Cool is that why Edmonton has made the playoffs once in the last decade. Great leadership. 

I've seen nothing to show McDavid is a great leader. He might be quieter than Jack. He scores plenty more, but that doesn't make his some great leader. Crosby and Ovie are great leaders.

[jad1]

1 hour ago, #freejame said:

Add Kaliyev and Bjornfot and I’ll take it. Would prefer Byfield over Turcotte though. 

There's a lot of discussion about trading Eichel to the Kings for their young talent.

Checking in with that young talent: Byfield, Turcotte, Bjornfot, and Byfield are all assigned to the Kings AHL squad, the Ontario Reign.  

The Ontario Reign's record currently is 1-10-2.

Byfield has played in all 13 games, has 1 goal, 7pts, and is a -15.

Turcotte has played 7 games, has 1 assist and is a -3.

Kaliyev has played 13 games has 1 goal, 6 pts, and is a -2.

Bjornfot has played 1 game, no points, but is a -2.

Vilardi has been on the Kings roster, and he scores a goal every 3 games or so, so he has the potential to for 25 goals and maybe 60 points, which isn't too bad.

So what happens if the Sabres trade for a combo of these young players? They wait.  None of the young players are ready yet.  None of them are driving their team forward yet.  They all look to need another couple of seasons in the AHL.

And if Vilardi is included in the trade? Well he replaces Eichel as the #1 center this year.

So trading with the Kings brings the Sabres a #1 center with a lower ceiling than Eichel, and prospects that might improve the team in 2 or 3 years.

In other words, the Sabres lose the trade. And they would brutally lose it if the young players don't develop as planned, which is a real possibility.

 

 

 

[Drag0nDan]

1 hour ago, jad1 said:

There's a lot of discussion about trading Eichel to the Kings for their young talent.

Checking in with that young talent: Byfield, Turcotte, Bjornfot, and Byfield are all assigned to the Kings AHL squad, the Ontario Reign.  

The Ontario Reign's record currently is 1-10-2.

Byfield has played in all 13 games, has 1 goal, 7pts, and is a -15.

Turcotte has played 7 games, has 1 assist and is a -3.

Kaliyev has played 13 games has 1 goal, 6 pts, and is a -2.

Bjornfot has played 1 game, no points, but is a -2.

Vilardi has been on the Kings roster, and he scores a goal every 3 games or so, so he has the potential to for 25 goals and maybe 60 points, which isn't too bad.

So what happens if the Sabres trade for a combo of these young players? They wait.  None of the young players are ready yet.  None of them are driving their team forward yet.  They all look to need another couple of seasons in the AHL.

And if Vilardi is included in the trade? Well he replaces Eichel as the #1 center this year.

So trading with the Kings brings the Sabres a #1 center with a lower ceiling than Eichel, and prospects that might improve the team in 2 or 3 years.

In other words, the Sabres lose the trade. And they would brutally lose it if the young players don't develop as planned, which is a real possibility.

 

 

 

Right - that happens all the time.  Look at the thornton, seguin, kessel trades.  You aren't getting a war chest - he has one of the highest cap hits in the NHL and is performing well below.  This also hamstrings them with 3 players making more than 10 million - insanely top heavy.  

The trade has to include someone expensive - Probably Carter, maybe quick as well (if ullmark is healthy).  

1 top prospect (probably 1 of turcotte and vilardi - not both, and since they're in the hunt it'd likely be turcotte), and 1 lesser prospect/fringier roster player - probably a defenseman. 

1 1st round pick, probably 2022 non-protected.  

Any overpay would likely come from draft pick compensation - 2 2nds, or another 1st.  Maybe you bring in more here if you package ullmark in there as well.  

[JKB1646]

3 hours ago, Claude Balls said:

I've seen nothing to show McDavid is a great leader. He might be quieter than Jack. He scores plenty more, but that doesn't make his some great leader. Crosby and Ovie are great leaders.

Crosby and Toews set the standard!

[PerreaultForever]

Bruins don't do everything right, they make mistakes. Look at that draft, one of the deepest in history. They had 3 firsts (which was smart in a draft that good) but they picked Zboril, DeBrusk and Senyshyn when they could have had Connor, Barzal Chabot.  Zboril finally looks like he can be a mid level NHL D man but imagine how strong they'd look with Barzal and Connor on that 2nd line they are always trying to fix.  

As I remember it at that time they felt Thornton was too much about Thornton and wouldn't fully buy in and he was a bit of a quitter (by Bruins standards) and on that team no one player is bigger than the culture and that's why he was moved even though they got a less than return. That attitude is maybe what separates them from a lot of other team cultures. 

[PerreaultForever]

8 minutes ago, JKB1646 said:

Crosby and Toews set the standard!

Toews yes, idk about Crosby. Works hard, dedicated but also a bit of a whiner.  Good captains often aren't the stars. Nick Foligno's a good captain, so is Anders Lee. Chara imo was the standard and Bergeron is almost as good. When Bergeron retires it won't go to Pasternak (their best player) it'll probably go to McAvoy. 

[OhMyDahlin]

4 hours ago, #freejame said:

Add Kaliyev and Bjornfot and I’ll take it. Would prefer Byfield over Turcotte though. 

I think you could get one or the other, but not all four pieces.

As for Byfield, I'd take him over Turcotte too, but I don't think the Kings would do it.

 

2 hours ago, jad1 said:

There's a lot of discussion about trading Eichel to the Kings for their young talent.

Checking in with that young talent: Byfield, Turcotte, Bjornfot, and Byfield are all assigned to the Kings AHL squad, the Ontario Reign.  

The Ontario Reign's record currently is 1-10-2.

Byfield has played in all 13 games, has 1 goal, 7pts, and is a -15.

Turcotte has played 7 games, has 1 assist and is a -3.

Kaliyev has played 13 games has 1 goal, 6 pts, and is a -2.

Bjornfot has played 1 game, no points, but is a -2.

Vilardi has been on the Kings roster, and he scores a goal every 3 games or so, so he has the potential to for 25 goals and maybe 60 points, which isn't too bad.

So what happens if the Sabres trade for a combo of these young players? They wait.  None of the young players are ready yet.  None of them are driving their team forward yet.  They all look to need another couple of seasons in the AHL.

And if Vilardi is included in the trade? Well he replaces Eichel as the #1 center this year.

So trading with the Kings brings the Sabres a #1 center with a lower ceiling than Eichel, and prospects that might improve the team in 2 or 3 years.

In other words, the Sabres lose the trade. And they would brutally lose it if the young players don't develop as planned, which is a real possibility.

 

 

 

Then I guess they better make sure they develop whatever kids they get in return, because they are most likely the biggest asset in the package.

[Claude Balls]

32 minutes ago, JKB1646 said:

Crosby and Toews set the standard!

Forgot about Mr. Taves (that's how it should be spelled lol)

[Scottysabres]

I'll take The similarity starts at Thortons beard and endes at Eichels hair for 200 Alex.

[Claude Balls]

24 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Toews yes, idk about Crosby. Works hard, dedicated but also a bit of a whiner.  Good captains often aren't the stars. Nick Foligno's a good captain, so is Anders Lee. Chara imo was the standard and Bergeron is almost as good. When Bergeron retires it won't go to Pasternak (their best player) it'll probably go to McAvoy. 

I was gonna say you can have a captain that doesn't have to be a superstar and mention Chara, but I can't stand him, lol.

Mike Peca was def no superstar, but he was a leader among men for sure.

[jad1]

5 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

I think you could get one or the other, but not all four pieces.

As for Byfield, I'd take him over Turcotte too, but I don't think the Kings would do it.

 

Then I guess they better make sure they develop whatever kids they get in return, because they are most likely the biggest asset in the package.

And that's why it's a massive risk.  A GM willing to trade Eichel has to be prepared to lose the trade. 

And that's a difficult thing for this organization because it doesn't have the roster, coaching, prospects, or culture to support losing a trade like that.

Think of the setback that the O'Reilly caused the organization.  This would be much, much worse.

Any GM who makes this trade has to be certain that Eichel, a guy who posted 78 points in 68 games last season, is part of the problem and not part of the solution.

 

[dudacek]

I think the King would be absolutely nuts not to trade all of Turcotte, Kaliyev and Byfield for Eichel (along with something to balance cap). Straight up bonkers.

None of those three have done a thing to indicate they will be anywhere near Eichel's level. Turcotte and Kaliyev today equate to Mittelstadt and Thompson two years ago. Byfield to Nolan Patrick.

Sure they might turn into Suzuki, Yamamoto and Ryan Johansson before he got paid, but that's kinda worst-case scenario and you still got Jack Eichel.

Bird in the hand.

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think the King would be absolutely nuts not to trade all of Turcotte, Kaliyev and Byfield for Eichel (along with something to balance cap). Straight up bonkers.

None of those three have done a thing to indicate they will be anywhere near Eichel's level. Turcotte and Kaliyev today equate to Mittelstadt and Thompson two years ago. Byfield to Nolan Patrick.

Sure they might turn into Suzuki, Yamamoto and Ryan Johansson before he got paid, but that's kinda worst-case scenario and you still got Jack Eichel.

Bird in the hand.

Yeah, I've been out of it, but who the ***** are these players lol

Oh, building a proposal for Jack around some guy named Kirby Dach? Huh? *checks out who Kirby Dach is

Maybe I'm crazy, but getting players like these back would also require at least one top line forward coming with them, no? 

[jad1]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

I think the King would be absolutely nuts not to trade all of Turcotte, Kaliyev and Byfield for Eichel (along with something to balance cap). Straight up bonkers.

None of those three have done a thing to indicate they will be anywhere near Eichel's level. Turcotte and Kaliyev today equate to Mittelstadt and Thompson two years ago. Byfield to Nolan Patrick.

Sure they might turn into Suzuki, Yamamoto and Ryan Johansson before he got paid, but that's kinda worst-case scenario and you still got Jack Eichel.

Bird in the hand.

It would win Rob Blake the Executive of the Year award, hands down.

Meanwhile, Ralph would stick Turcotte and Byfield on the taxi squad for the rest of the year.

[dudacek]

26 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Yeah, I've been out of it, but who the ***** are these players lol

Oh, building a proposal for Jack around some guy named Kirby Dach? Huh? *checks out who Kirby Dach is

Maybe I'm crazy, but getting players like these back would also require at least one top line forward coming with them, no? 

For Eichel, as things stand now? Absolutely.

Mix and match depending on the trade partner, but generally speaking the ask would have to be one of two things:

* a package including a lesser but proven forward asset to plug into Jack's slot and eat cap, a high-level skill prospect, and a pick or prospect to sweeten

(Think Kopitar and Byfield, Zibanejad and Lafreniere, or Kane and Dach, sweeten as needed)

* a hockey trade involving similar value players maybe in need of a change

(Think Barkov and Spencer Knight for Eichel and Ristolainen, or Petersson and Virtanen for Eichel and Montour, sweeten as needed)

I'm not advocating the above or saying they are good valie, just throwing them out there as the types of packages needed to make this a conversation.

If the best things on the table are HFBoards offers like Kakko, Strome and a pick, Jack needs to get used to the blue and gold.

Edited March 8, 2021 by dudacek