How bad is it? The Sabres compared to the Tank

[DarthEbriate]

6 hours ago, Thorny said:

If we played a full 82 we wouldn’t get enough points to make it, the other teams still playing 56 

We've got 26 games in hand. We got 'em right where we want 'em.

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

This is why a professional sports team should NEVER ever allow itself to "plan" to lose.  I don't care if the intentions include resting players, prevent injuries or improve one's drafting position.  Once you allow or even promote the idea of losing, it becomes a STINK that is impossible to get rid of.  

And if you do tank, you absolutely must get a bunch of one-year contracts and then get rid of everyone when it's time to "try" again. Girgs, Risto, McCabe --- they've gotta be in Rochester the entire time. And they only come up once Eichel is picked. Which means you might have to trade them for other assets because they're angry because there's no way you can keep them down when you're playing Meszaros instead of them.

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Interesting.   The GM stepping up is normal in any world except this Sabres world.  Covid should not be an issue.  Montreal fired a coach and they had a winning record.  We are mired an a 5 game losing streak and our best players have disappeared.  Adams should be heard from soon, unless Kim is holding him back and she plans on making a statement.  
 

And this could be an issue as to why old school guys like Dudley or Rutherford would back away.  

The Sabres said no to Dudley 

[Marvin]

19 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The Sabres said no to Dudley 

Are you saying that they declined out of hand?  That seems odd.  It seems more likely that Dudley wanted more control than Kim was willing to give.

[The Jokeman]

It's worse because at least The Tank had some light/purpose at the end of the tunnel. I'm actually not watching games as have no vested interest in anything or any one on the team.

Edited March 5, 2021 by The Jokeman

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Brawndo said:

The Sabres said no to Dudley 

Yes, but why?   Certainly not for his experience or track record.  More likely his expectations of his role and what level of control he wanted could be an issue .  Maybe even his contract demands?  Maybe his style?   
 

I hope that someone like Rutherford gets a shot.   Someone that is tied in to the NHL.  It’s seems like we are outsiders.  

[bob_sauve28]

With Ullmark in net the team has a winning record. 
 

With the other goalies they are a combined 1-8 

 

 

[carpandean]

34 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

With Ullmark in net the team has a winning record. 
 

With the other goalies they are a combined 1-8

As discussed in another thread, with Ulmark in net, they have 5 wins and 6 losses.  Not a winning record.  They have 12 points in 11 GP, which is more than 1 pt/GP.  However, that's an 89 pt per 82 GP pace, which is below playoff pace.  Your starter should be notably above playoff pace to just make it in, since you expect your backup to perform a little worse.

Linus has played well and might be an OK (not great) starter if the team in front of him improved. 

 

[bob_sauve28]

6 minutes ago, carpandean said:

As discussed in another thread, with Ulmark in net, they have 5 wins and 6 losses.  Not a winning record.  They have 12 points in 11 GP, which is more than 1 pt/GP.  However, that's an 89 pt per 82 GP pace, which is below playoff pace.  Your starter should be notably above playoff pace to just make it in, since you expect your backup to perform a little worse.

Linus has played well and might be an OK (not great) starter if the team in front of him improved. 

 

But the trend was upward. He was playing very well before the injury, so those numbers could very easily of changed for the better had he played more. He started slowly after the long off season but was coming 9n and looked really good before he was injured. Linus was providing room for the team to get better and stay in the hunt, but the other goalies are just terrible. 

This team isn’t as bad as their record indicates. Improve the goaltending to start and things can quickly turn around. 

[carpandean]

32 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

But the trend was upward. He was playing very well before the injury, so those numbers could very easily of changed for the better had he played more. He started slowly after the long off season but was coming 9n and looked really good before he was injured. Linus was providing room for the team to get better and stay in the hunt, but the other goalies are just terrible.

Was it?  He looked really good in some games, but his save % in whole games (newest first):

0.976

0.870

0.926

0.857

0.897

0.912

In his first five games, his save % was 0.915, while in the the last five, it was 0.920.  A little better, maybe, but a lot more variable, too.  Two of his best three games were in the most recent five, as compared to one in the first five, but his three worst were all in the last five.

I'll admit that save % is a very incomplete metric, but can you show me one that shows he's really been improving?

Hutton has been bad and also needs to be replaced.  However, if you just replace him, you're still a bubble team, at best.  Realistically, a better backup would have given you maybe three more wins.  That would put the Sabres at 0.500 P%, tied with the Rangers for sixth-worst in the division.

[bob_sauve28]

19 minutes ago, carpandean said:

Was it?  He looked really good in some games, but his save % in whole games (newest first):

0.976

0.870

0.926

0.857

0.897

0.912

In his first five games, his save % was 0.915, while in the the last five, it was 0.920.  A little better, maybe, but a lot more variable, too.  Two of his best three games were in the most recent five, as compared to one in the first five, but his three worst were all in the last five.

I'll admit that save % is a very incomplete metric, but can you show me one that shows he's really been improving?

Hutton has been bad and also needs to be replaced.  However, if you just replace him, you're still a bubble team, at best.  Realistically, a better backup would have given you maybe three more wins.  That would put the Sabres at 0.500 P%, tied with the Rangers for sixth-worst in the division.

I agree that if we improve the goaltending we move up to a bubble team. Yes. And then we go from there. It’s the first step needed. Without doing that we stay a bottom dweller. 

Better goaltending makes the whole team better and gives it breathing space to improve. Jack, Jeff and the rest actually need to score, also. 

 

The biggest immediate jump-this team can take is with better goaltending. It’s the most fixable thing on the team. 

 

How you fix Jeff and Jack, well, I have no idea. 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

But the trend was upward. He was playing very well before the injury, so those numbers could very easily of changed for the better had he played more. He started slowly after the long off season but was coming 9n and looked really good before he was injured. Linus was providing room for the team to get better and stay in the hunt, but the other goalies are just terrible. 

This team isn’t as bad as their record indicates. Improve the goaltending to start and things can quickly turn around. 

Improve the goaltending?  While if you had ANY position on this team being better, including goaltending, then the team of course would be a bit better, but Ullmark has not been the problem. This team is getting close to being historically bad at putting the puck in the net. They are 3rd worst in goals per game overall. They are last in the league in evenstrength goals. In the past 15 years, only the 2 worst tank teams had fewer goals per game.

Ullmark has played well enough that the team doesn't have to focus on him, they can play a 'normal' offensive game and not fear he will be awful if they don't play 100% defense either.  With him in net, they have had scoring chances they just aren't good enough to put in the net.

I'd love to have an all star goaltender on this team...but this team isn't even sniffing the playoffs until they get a LOT more scoring.  

Edited March 6, 2021 by mjd1001

[bob_sauve28]

8 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Improve the goaltending?  While if you had ANY position on this team being better, including goaltending, then the team of course would be a bit better, but Ullmark has not been the problem. This team is getting close to being historically bad at putting the puck in the net. They are 3rd worst in goals per game overall. They are last in the league in evenstrength goals. In the past 15 years, only the 2 worst tank teams had fewer goals per game.

Ullmark has played well enough that the team doesn't have to focus on him, they can play a 'normal' offensive game and not fear he will be awful if they don't play 100% defense either.  With him in net, they have had scoring chances they just aren't good enough to put in the net.

I'd love to have an all star goaltender on this team...but this team isn't even sniffing the playoffs until they get a LOT more scoring.  

I like Ullmark but he needs a back up or someone there to play if he is injured. They are a bubble team with h8. In net, and I’d imagine with any decent goaltender in net. First priority by far should be getting another goalie. 

 

They are 1-8 with the other goalies playing. 

 

As to the scoring? That’s a lot harder to fix. We have Hall, Jack and Jeff. They are suppose to score but are not. How many goals between the three of them? How do you propose to fix them? Fire the coach?  Fine, but the new coach will still have decide who to start in goal, Hutton or JJ. Good luck with that! 

[Kruppstahl]

3 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

With Ullmark in net the team has a winning record. 
 

With the other goalies they are a combined 1-8 

 

 

Our young GM just told us all yesterday that goaltending has nothing to do with our troubles! 

It's not why we are where we are! 

 

[bob_sauve28]

3 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Our young GM just told us all yesterday that goaltending has nothing to do with our troubles! 

It's not why we are where we are! 

 

I guess he doesn't want to dump on the goalies? And it's his fault, not Ralph's that we didn't get a decent upgrade in the off season. I don't know what the issues or options were, but for whatever reason we came into the season with Carton Hutton holding a large part of our fortunes in his hands. 

[Randall Flagg]

bob_sauve28 has an extremely appealing posting style. 

Steady as she goes, in good times and bad, whether responding to arguments or affirmations. A fairly blunt matter-of-factness in every post, but always optimistic. 

[bunomatic]

25 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Our young GM just told us all yesterday that goaltending has nothing to do with our troubles! 

It's not why we are where we are! 

 

I missed that. Fire Adams immediately.

lol. Kind of joking but sorta serious. If I wanted Pegulaspeak from Adams I’d listen to Kim. Fans aren’t stupid Kevin. Yes having capable goaltending helps and this season it is one of our issues.

[Randall Flagg]

I'm pretty sure every "insider" we have has said that the Sabres spent all offseason looking to upgrade Hutton, have called Anaheim on John freaking Gibson several times, and are currently looking at goalies again. 

We really don't know what the market looks like. What if Arizona wanted Olofsson if they were giving up Raanta? Who knows what they were asking. I will still give Kevyn the F grade for ultimately failing to upgrade goaltending, but him giving them a public vote of confidence does not mean he has zero interest in upgrading Hutton lol 

[Kruppstahl]

1 minute ago, bunomatic said:

I missed that. Fire Adams immediately.

lol. Kind of joking but sorta serious. If I wanted Pegulaspeak from Adams I’d listen to Kim. Fans aren’t stupid Kevin. Yes having capable goaltending helps and this season it is one of our issues.

Yeah, he definitely said that straight up!  It's funny (or sad) because Hutton is quite clearly not an NHL goalie and yet we felt secure not changing our goaltending last offseason.

Not only is it important, but there is probably no single move that could have had a bigger impact on our win/loss percentage this year than to improve the goaltending.

So we sit on our hands.

This is the type of thing where I personally really wonder about money, as in, Terry doesn't want to spend it.

I know he signed Hall for big money, but that was only 1 year and that was kind of a "don't lose the fanbase" hire.

He can spend some money and still be concerned about money in general.

It is going to be really interesting to see how long Ralph keeps his job.

If he isn't removed soon, it'll be another factor pointing to the idea that Pegula is concerned about money.

 

 

 

[Kruppstahl]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm pretty sure every "insider" we have has said that the Sabres spent all offseason looking to upgrade Hutton, have called Anaheim on John freaking Gibson several times, and are currently looking at goalies again. 

We really don't know what the market looks like. What if Arizona wanted Olofsson if they were giving up Raanta? Who knows what they were asking. I will still give Kevyn the F grade for ultimately failing to upgrade goaltending, but him giving them a public vote of confidence does not mean he has zero interest in upgrading Hutton lol 

Hutton is a replacement caliber goaltender.

Almost any move could be an improvement, and it sends the message to the team, fanbase, everyone, that where we are isn't good enough.

So I don't buy the idea that we *tried* but just couldn't improve the goaltending.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

This is worse then the tank.  We all knew then that they weren't trying to win in order to restock the system.  This time they are actually trying (in theory) to win and can't.  

[dudacek]

52 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Our young GM just told us all yesterday that goaltending has nothing to do with our troubles! 

It's not why we are where we are! 

 

The two bolds are not the same. The second is correct.

What I heard is Adams saying is that you can’t blame this team’s record on the goalies. He also said Ullmark has played well. Both statements are true.

He blamed our team’s record on not competing hard enough to score, or to defend.

[Randall Flagg]

29 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Hutton is a replacement caliber goaltender.

Almost any move could be an improvement, and it sends the message to the team, fanbase, everyone, that where we are isn't good enough.

So I don't buy the idea that we *tried* but just couldn't improve the goaltending.

 

Give specifics, and prove we could have tried harder but didn't.

Yes, Stalock was available, a guy who is still injured for a while and hasn't played in months and months. 

Should we have just changed Braden Holtby's mind to come here instead of a team taht just made the playoffs? How are the Canucks doing with that? 

Same for Markstrom.

Hutton sucks balls and Kevyn gets an F because we have to watch that, but my point is that Kevyn's vote of confidence means less than zero with respect to how he actually handled things and feels internally. People on this board I trust have assured us that nobody WANTED it to be the case that we are stuck with Hutton, that it just ended up that way either because we didn't want to pony up (in which case, I would bet everything I own that if we had, everyone that complains now would be complaining even harder at giving up so much for not-great return) or because the other party lost interest.

[Stoner]

https://youtu.be/xWMh38O5GBw?t=115

[Thorner]

45 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The two bolds are not the same. The second is correct.

What I heard is Adams saying is that you can’t blame this team’s record on the goalies. He also said Ullmark has played well. Both statements are true.

He blamed our team’s record on not competing hard enough to score, or to defend.

It’s pretty telling that we have so much better of a record with Ullmark, though, no? Whatever the reason, we are losing when other goalies are in net. If injuries aren’t an excuse like Adams claimed, Hutton’s games count and the stats say with a better goalie we’d be winning. 

That’s on Adams and it proves the goaltending while not the CAUSE of all our losing could be representative of an available avenue for improvement enough to bridge the gap to winning. An improvement we knew we needed in the offseason. 

From a certain point of view, it is indeed preventing us from winning 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Thorny