Biggest Sabres blunders since 2013

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

Every thing in your post makes sense. Where I have a different take is the significance of the culture issue. The bigger issue for me is the accumulation (or lack of accumulation) of talent. There simply isn't enough talent.

Well the "talent" is clearly not delivering, but is not enough talent actually true? How many teams actually have more than one top scoring line? On paper isn't a top line of Hall Eichel Reinhart just about as "talented" as anyone can hope for? I look at the rosters of most teams and in a cap era you don't get more than 4 or 5 top talents on your offense. But our talent doesn't get it done.  I would argue that our nemesis Boston Bruins do not have more talent, they just have a different attitude, work harder, and maximize what they have. 

When you lose the talent is recategorized as lacking so every year going in we seem to have more talent but then we don't (eg. Staal). This ownership doesn't see hockey the way I do so I know there is zero chance they'll wake up and build it right so I'm not sure how we get out of this current path. Not many people on this roster are earning their paychecks at this point, that's for sure. 

All I know for sure is I'd gladly trade any or all the "talent" for a hard working team that can actually win games. 

[Drag0nDan]

On 2/4/2021 at 3:04 PM, inkman said:

Not disagreeing but who have they drafted for need?

Ehhh my biggest ones were "nylander - the winger to play with jack" and "mittelstadt - the 2nd line center behind jack".  

Perception might be greater than reality.  But either way, i didn't come away from either pick as the BPA.  Nor did i with the 1st this year tbh.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Drag0nDan

[GASabresIUFAN]

The need pick in 2016 was a defenseman.  He should have drafted Sergachev.  Mittelstadt was certainly BPA.  He was rated as a top 5/6 pick by most writers prior to the draft.

[nfreeman]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well the "talent" is clearly not delivering, but is not enough talent actually true? How many teams actually have more than one top scoring line? On paper isn't a top line of Hall Eichel Reinhart just about as "talented" as anyone can hope for? I look at the rosters of most teams and in a cap era you don't get more than 4 or 5 top talents on your offense. But our talent doesn't get it done.  I would argue that our nemesis Boston Bruins do not have more talent, they just have a different attitude, work harder, and maximize what they have. 

When you lose the talent is recategorized as lacking so every year going in we seem to have more talent but then we don't (eg. Staal). This ownership doesn't see hockey the way I do so I know there is zero chance they'll wake up and build it right so I'm not sure how we get out of this current path. Not many people on this roster are earning their paychecks at this point, that's for sure. 

All I know for sure is I'd gladly trade any or all the "talent" for a hard working team that can actually win games. 

I agree that the Bruins get much more out of what they have than the Sabres do.  I'm not sure I'd say they work harder, but I definitely think they know how to win and the Sabres do not.

However, I think the Bruins have more talent.  At this point in time, McAvoy is much better than any Sabres' defenseman.  Dahlin may get there, but he's not there yet.  As for the two teams' top lines, Reino and, at this point in time, Hall, are the 5th and 6th best players out of the 6, and it's fairly likely that Marchand and Pastrnak both end up having better NHL careers than Eichel will have (although to be fair you could say that is an example of the Sabres not getting the most out of their talent).

And there's no question that the Bruins have more talent at goalie, where the Sabres are gasping for air.  (Thanks KA!)

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I agree that the Bruins get much more out of what they have than the Sabres do.  I'm not sure I'd say they work harder, but I definitely think they know how to win and the Sabres do not.

However, I think the Bruins have more talent.  At this point in time, McAvoy is much better than any Sabres' defenseman.  Dahlin may get there, but he's not there yet.  As for the two teams' top lines, Reino and, at this point in time, Hall, are the 5th and 6th best players out of the 6, and it's fairly likely that Marchand and Pastrnak both end up having better NHL careers than Eichel will have (although to be fair you could say that is an example of the Sabres not getting the most out of their talent).

And there's no question that the Bruins have more talent at goalie, where the Sabres are gasping for air.  (Thanks KA!)

I suppose that is true. McAvoy has definitely come into his own, no question. I guess we just overpay our talent then 🙂

I dunno though, I look at that roster and after the perfection line and an aging Krejci they're just a bunch of mid level muckers who struggle to score goals as much as we do. Wagner, Kuraly, Blidh, Frederic, and I'm blanking on names here...........but not many stand outs in a "talent" sense. Just a lot of tough hard workers. So basically, I stand by the idea that I'd win more games with a team of that kind of player than a team of "talent". 

[bunomatic]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:10 AM, DarthEbriate said:

I think it boils down to vision. The decision was made to tank. Fine. Tank-vision on the McDavid timeline. All well and good. But since that decision, we’ve had DR-vision and Sabres University-vision, then PLF/Nolan-vision, then PLF/GMTM vision which quickly became just GMTM-vision. Now, the tank is over and it’s time for rebuild vision. So we have GMTM/Byslma-vision, JBott/Housley-, JBott/RaKru-, and now Kheevyn/RaKru-vision. And each of these combinations takes the team in a slightly different tack. Is it win now, or just compete hard, is it overpay washed out players or just ice an AHL roster, is it build the center-spine or build an attacking d-corps, is it play heavy or play small and fast? Our feeble skills are no match for the power of the hockey stability. We have paid the price for our lack of vision. And all this points to the ownership changing the slate every 2 years.

So much this.

[Pimlach]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:58 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Totally. That one was a joke right? 

It's not the worst blunder, but drafting Nylander instead of McAvoy has to be up there for me (or even Sergachev) . 

Otherwise so many choices....................Skinner's contract is the gift that keeps on giving though.

Regarding the tank, I also think the way Murray treated Nolan played a part in ruining this team's culture. Like him or hate him he was placed in an impossible situation and then tossed into the trash. A popular man with his players and part of the team's history/success that was just wrong, and that sort of thing has a lasting effect. Only way to get over it quickly is to start winning right away, and we didn't do that. Culture of the team has been broken ever since. ROR should have been named captain, that's another big one for me. Holding it for Eichel was a big big mistake. 

Culture -  I have a few connections to past Sabres and some people in the know of what has gone on since the Pegula regime started.  40 years of winning culture has been destroyed by the last 10 years.  This was a proud franchise and despite a few bumps in the road, used to be synonymous with a positive hockey culture.  
 

The ROR and Eichel dynamic was not great.  They may be “friends” but they did not lead together.  ROR goes to StLouis, a team loaded with veteran leaders and he fit right in,  impressing everyone with his work ethic, he lead by example and. His play.  So far it looks like Jack dies not have the C role figured out but I can’t imagine anyone else taking the C.   I remember when Jim Shoenfeld was the captain and then they gave the  C to Danny Gare.  Never thought that was good move, things like that are likely to create division in the ranks. 
 

Skinner is not well liked by the players

 

[Pimlach]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:11 AM, klos1963 said:

i seem to remember reading that GMTM really loved Draisatl as well and tried to swing a trade for the #3 pick to get him after Reinhart.

And if true, is one more reason why Murray sucks. If he loved Draisatl then why not draft him at #2?   

[Pimlach]

On 2/4/2021 at 1:10 PM, DarthEbriate said:

I think it boils down to vision. The decision was made to tank. Fine. Tank-vision on the McDavid timeline. All well and good. But since that decision, we’ve had DR-vision and Sabres University-vision, then PLF/Nolan-vision, then PLF/GMTM vision which quickly became just GMTM-vision. Now, the tank is over and it’s time for rebuild vision. So we have GMTM/Byslma-vision, JBott/Housley-, JBott/RaKru-, and now Kheevyn/RaKru-vision. And each of these combinations takes the team in a slightly different tack. Is it win now, or just compete hard, is it overpay washed out players or just ice an AHL roster, is it build the center-spine or build an attacking d-corps, is it play heavy or play small and fast? Our feeble skills are no match for the power of the hockey stability. We have paid the price for our lack of vision. And all this points to the ownership changing the slate every 2 years.

And these visions were all cut short before they had any chance to work.  Some rightfully so.  
 

What was missing was the simple approach of hiring experienced, proven and savvy professionals and then getting out of the way.  

Black + Patty + Murray + Nolan - all poor choices blended together and the sum of the parts was even worse.  
 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Pimlach

[Curt]

19 hours ago, Drag0nDan said:

Ehhh my biggest ones were "nylander - the winger to play with jack" and "mittelstadt - the 2nd line center behind jack".  

Perception might be greater than reality.  But either way, i didn't come away from either pick as the BPA.  Nor did i with the 1st this year tbh.

When Mittelstadt was drafted, they didn’t need a 2nd line C.  That was a full year before O’Reilly was traded.

[Curt]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I suppose that is true. McAvoy has definitely come into his own, no question. I guess we just overpay our talent then 🙂

I dunno though, I look at that roster and after the perfection line and an aging Krejci they're just a bunch of mid level muckers who struggle to score goals as much as we do. Wagner, Kuraly, Blidh, Frederic, and I'm blanking on names here...........but not many stand outs in a "talent" sense. Just a lot of tough hard workers. So basically, I stand by the idea that I'd win more games with a team of that kind of player than a team of "talent". 

David Krejci, Nick Ritchie, Craig Smith, Charlie Coyle, Jake DeBrusk is the bulk of their middle 6.  And that’s behind one of the top 5 lines in the league.  That’s not just a bunch of muckers.

They are grinding, Bruins type player but they have middle 6 level offensive talented too.

[Pimlach]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:58 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Totally. That one was a joke right? 

It's not the worst blunder, but drafting Nylander instead of McAvoy has to be up there for me (or even Sergachev) . 

Otherwise so many choices....................Skinner's contract is the gift that keeps on giving though.

Regarding the tank, I also think the way Murray treated Nolan played a part in ruining this team's culture. Like him or hate him he was placed in an impossible situation and then tossed into the trash. A popular man with his players and part of the team's history/success that was just wrong, and that sort of thing has a lasting effect. Only way to get over it quickly is to start winning right away, and we didn't do that. Culture of the team has been broken ever since. ROR should have been named captain, that's another big one for me. Holding it for Eichel was a big big mistake. 

Culture -  I have a few connections to past Sabres and some people in the know.  40 years of winning culture has been destroyed by the last 10 years.  This was a proud franchise that, despite a few bumps in their history, used to be synonymous with a positive hockey culture.  
 

Skinner is not well liked by the players.   The ROR and Eichel dynamic was not all that great.  They may be “friends” but they did not lead together.  ROR goes to StLouis, a team loaded with veteran leaders and he fits right in, impressing everyone with his work ethic and skills.  No doubt he was a better choice to get the C than Jack.  

[freester]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Culture -  I have a few connections to past Sabres and some people in the know.  40 years of winning culture has been destroyed by the last 10 years.  This was a proud franchise that, despite a few bumps in their history, used to be synonymous with a positive hockey culture.  
 

Skinner is not well liked by the players.   The ROR and Eichel dynamic was not all that great.  They may be “friends” but they did not lead together.  ROR goes to StLouis, a team loaded with veteran leaders and he fits right in, impressing everyone with his work ethic and skills.  No doubt he was a better choice to get the C than Jack.  

How do you know that Skinner is not well liked by the other players?  I have not heard that. 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, freester said:

How do you know that Skinner is not well liked by the other players?  I have not heard that. 

Heard it from a former player who is still in touch with things at Harbor Center.  Basically, his inability (or reluctance) to thrive in RK’s system is alienating him.  RK is well liked and the teams wants to take a step forward.  The guys feel a sense of doom having him on their line.  
 

Hard to believe given how well his first year was with the team.  Look now and he fell to the 4th line, you never see him on a PP, or in OT.  To me he looks like he is working most of the time, but no one feeds him the puck and when he gets the puck  he just tries to create space for him to shoot -  it looks like he plays alone.  

Edited February 7, 2021 by Pimlach

[freester]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Heard is from a former player who is still in touch with things at Harbor Center.  Basically, his inability (or reluctance) to thrive in RK’s system is alienating him.  RK is well liked and the teams wants to take a step forward.  The guys feel a sense of doom having him on their line.  
 

Hard to believe given how well his first year was with the team.  Look now and he fell to the 4th line, you never see him on a PP, or in OT.  To me he looks like he is working most of the time, but no one feeds him the puck and when he get the puck  he just tries to create space for him to shoot -  it looks like he plays alone.  

That is very worrisome if true. Hopefully Skinner will adopt a different mindset. 

[SwampD]

52 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Heard is from a former player who is still in touch with things at Harbor Center.  Basically, his inability (or reluctance) to thrive in RK’s system is alienating him.  RK is well liked and the teams wants to take a step forward.  The guys feel a sense of doom having him on their line.  
 

Hard to believe given how well his first year was with the team.  Look now and he fell to the 4th line, you never see him on a PP, or in OT.  To me he looks like he is working most of the time, but no one feeds him the puck and when he get the puck  he just tries to create space for him to shoot -  it looks like he plays alone.  

I don’t buy any of this.

Any lower level player (who he is playing with) would be thrilled to try and feed the puck to a former 40 goal scorer.

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I don’t buy any of this.

Any lower level player (who he is playing with) would be thrilled to try and feed the puck to a former 40 goal scorer.

Not if that player is disrespectful of you and your ability through his actions, particularly on the ice.

[SwampD]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Not if that player is disrespectful of you and your ability through his actions, particularly on the ice.

Then ***** him. If it’s me, I’m trying to set up the 40 goal guy every time. That’s not a small feat.

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Then ***** him. If it’s me, I’m trying to set up the 40 goal guy every time. That’s not a small feat.

Have you never played with a guy who doesn’t pass when you’re open because he thinks the better decision is to try and beat the defenceman on his own?

Or the guy who turns the puck over and loafs on the backcheck while you struggle to cover for him?

How about the guy who pouts and makes it clear he thinks he deserves better linemates.

If that ***** doesn’t affect you, you’re a better linemate than me.

[SwampD]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Have you never played with a guy who doesn’t pass when you’re open because he thinks the better decision is to try and beat the defenceman on his own?

Or the guy who turns the puck over and loafs on the backcheck while you struggle to cover for him?

How about the guy who pouts and makes it clear he thinks he deserves better linemates.

If that ***** doesn’t affect you, you’re a better linemate than me.

I have and yes, but I always knew when a line mate was better than me at something (usually everything). Does Skinner do that? If so, why was he so prolific with Eichel early on? Does Eichel defer too much and need a Skinner? If so, that’s on coaching to make it work, then.

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Curt said:

David Krejci, Nick Ritchie, Craig Smith, Charlie Coyle, Jake DeBrusk is the bulk of their middle 6.  And that’s behind one of the top 5 lines in the league.  That’s not just a bunch of muckers.

They are grinding, Bruins type player but they have middle 6 level offensive talented too.

I guess, but none of them are putting up many points. There are many games where if the top line doesn't score they lose. 

[Andrew Amerk]

9 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Culture -  I have a few connections to past Sabres and some people in the know.  40 years of winning culture has been destroyed by the last 10 years.  This was a proud franchise that, despite a few bumps in their history, used to be synonymous with a positive hockey culture.  
 

Skinner is not well liked by the players.   The ROR and Eichel dynamic was not all that great.  They may be “friends” but they did not lead together.  ROR goes to StLouis, a team loaded with veteran leaders and he fits right in, impressing everyone with his work ethic and skills.  No doubt he was a better choice to get the C than Jack.  

Yeah, because getting hammered and crashing into a Tim Ho’s is clearly C material. 

[Curt]

5 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Yeah, because getting hammered and crashing into a Tim Ho’s is clearly C material. 

Don’t forget the part where he ran from the scene on foot, lol.  

Edited February 7, 2021 by Curt

[Huckleberry]

Forgot to add rushing our players into the NHL and poor development.

Especially in 2013 with Zadorov and Grigorenko.   (zadorov did kind of force the issue)

Edited February 7, 2021 by Huckleberry

[#freejame]

6 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Yeah, because getting hammered and crashing into a Tim Ho’s is clearly C material. 

Getting hammered and killing yourself driving was enough to get the actual Tim Horton his number retired in Buffalo. Getting the C after only crashing into a Tom Horton’s seems like a reasonable expectation.