Fixing the Sabres Long-Term - Can it be done?

[tom webster]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Nice thought, but if bad goaltending goes any shot at the playoffs.  Ullmark plays his heart out but is a mid tier goalie at best.  Even he let in 2 bad goals his last start and Hutton is a disaster.

Also the Eakin line is a black hole.  A disaster and the stats confirm it.  KO's return has hurt instead of helped and he needs to be sent to the taxi squad.

I understand RK's defensive vision and have praised our improve D structure, but it's killing the offense.  Against the Devils, they managed to integrate Lindy's system pretty quickly and the forechecked us into the ground.  There is no excuse for us not to be able to do the same even while being better in our end.  Remember this is year 2 for most of these players in this system. 

Fixing things need to be done asap not next season.  If we are going to waste this year, play the kids.

I know it’s tough to watch at times but a lot of this team is new and had little preseason and the guys that have been around have been through three coaches and three GM’s. 
 

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

If there is a compliance buyout this off-season, they shouldn’t have to take more than 5 seconds to decide that Skinner is the player to buy-out.  
 

Then turn around and bury Okposo in Rochester and hope that he retires. 

Burying him in the minors only relieves about a million dollars in cap and that would be exhausted on any replacement. 

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, WildCard said:

I get the topic and appreciate it and all but really your only answer here is firing Adams and Kruger. We aren't going anywhere with that muppet show steering the ship

I guess I don't look as The Muppet Show as a derogatory description...    I mean, it would look like chaos but we'd be entertained, have lots of good music going around, plenty of subversive victories over the norms, and there'd be the occasional explosion.

[LabattBlue]

23 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Burying him in the minors only relieves about a million dollars in cap and that would be exhausted on any replacement. 

I understand that, but I’d bury him, and hope he retires instead of going to the AHL.  In his place, give Smith, Thompson or Mitts an extended look, instead of yo-yo them between the lineup, press box or Rochester. 

[nfreeman]

5 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I understand that, but I’d bury him, and hope he retires instead of going to the AHL.  In his place, give Smith, Thompson or Mitts an extended look, instead of yo-yo them between the lineup, press box or Rochester. 

He's due to make $6MM this year and $4MM per year in each of the next 2 years.  I think there is zero possibility that he walks away from those paychecks.

Having said that, I agree that they should send him down unless he shows substantial improvement in the next couple of weeks.

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

I understand that, but I’d bury him, and hope he retires instead of going to the AHL.  In his place, give Smith, Thompson or Mitts an extended look, instead of yo-yo them between the lineup, press box or Rochester. 

Like Free said, he’s only owed $4M each of the last Beto years. Further, $2M next year is a signing bonus, so they could trade him after July 1st and new team would only owe $2M in 21/22 and $4M in 22/23 so he will be very tradeable in offseason.

Becsuse of his standing with team, it will be an amicable, smooth divorce.

[LabattBlue]

13 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Like Free said, he’s only owed $4M each of the last Beto years. Further, $2M next year is a signing bonus, so they could trade him after July 1st and new team would only owe $2M in 21/22 and $4M in 22/23 so he will be very tradeable in offseason.

Becsuse of his standing with team, it will be an amicable, smooth divorce.

I disagree.  Even if playing at last years level, NO team is paying KO $6mil over two years(post 7/1/21), let alone giving up something for him in a trade. 

[nfreeman]

4 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I disagree.  Even if playing at last years level, NO team is paying KO $6mil over two years(post 7/1/21), let alone giving up something for him in a trade. 

Well, I think the Sabres would have to attach a pick or a prospect, but I think @tom webster's point is that the price for the Sabres to unload him won't be as high as it might othewise have been.  This makes sense to me, but I wouldn't count on it either, because I think a lot of teams are going to be cap-squeezed, so the supply and demand of cap space will likely result in a high price to get someone to bit off KO's cap hit.

[tom webster]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, I think the Sabres would have to attach a pick or a prospect, but I think @tom webster's point is that the price for the Sabres to unload him won't be as high as it might othewise have been.  This makes sense to me, but I wouldn't count on it either, because I think a lot of teams are going to be cap-squeezed, so the supply and demand of cap space will likely result in a high price to get someone to bit off KO's cap hit.

Arizona, Ottawa and a couple other teams are going to be willing to take on $6M in salary in return for for two years of a $6M cap hit.

[MODO Hockey]

11 hours ago, tom webster said:

I know it’s tough to watch at times but a lot of this team is new and had little preseason and the guys that have been around have been through three coaches and three GM’s. 

I disagree 100%.

This is no excuse, at all. It is just easy to blame it on this.

The core has still been around since last season, they had over 10 months to prepare, they never had this long to prepare for a season and you dont need a full preseason to prepare elite hockey players, that is just plain bs to be frank. If that would be the case then all teams would suck at this moment and that is not true as you know, just look at Washington Caps with 2 rookie goalies and 4 top players afk.

This is on Ralph alone (maybe adams a lil), he is the head coach and he have no ***** clue how to coach a NHL team - that is real obvious now. His results are mediocre at best, teams with bad coaches will still win games, but a good coach can make teams win more games just out of doing his job. Its that simple, really.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by MODO Hockey

[tom webster]

7 hours ago, MODO Hockey said:

I disagree 100%.

This is no excuse, at all. It is just easy to blame it on this.

The core has still been around since last season, they had over 10 months to prepare, they never had this long to prepare for a season and you dont need a full preseason to prepare elite hockey players, that is just plain bs to be frank. If that would be the case then all teams would suck at this moment and that is not true as you know, just look at Washington Caps with 2 rookie goalies and 4 top players afk.

This is on Ralph alone (maybe adams a lil), he is the head coach and he have no ***** clue how to coach a NHL team - that is real obvious now. His results are mediocre at best, teams with bad coaches will still win games, but a good coach can make teams win more games just out of doing his job. Its that simple, really.

 

The hockey actually does duck league wide. Some divisions aren’t playing defense. Some divisions can’t play offense. The Bruins have actually been worse 5 on 5 then Buffalo. 
The way people on this board, you included, talk, the Sabres are the worst team ever. Their record, in spite of not getting the expected play from Eichel, Hall, Skinner and Dahlin are right in the middle of it. 
I’m done with this endless conversation, I’ll be back in April when the playoff race is more obvious. 

[JohnC]

17 hours ago, tom webster said:

Like Free said, he’s only owed $4M each of the last Beto years. Further, $2M next year is a signing bonus, so they could trade him after July 1st and new team would only owe $2M in 21/22 and $4M in 22/23 so he will be very tradeable in offseason.

Becsuse of his standing with team, it will be an amicable, smooth divorce.

Okposo is not tradeable for a variety of reasons. Without even factoring in his contract his level of play is a shadow of what it once was, and it continues to decline. He's a high character guy who gives it his all. There is little left in his tank to draw from. It is obvious that he is a battered player who is not going to regenerate. No matter how much you root for this high character person there is little appeal on the market for him. 

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

The hockey actually does duck league wide. Some divisions aren’t playing defense. Some divisions can’t play offense. The Bruins have actually been worse 5 on 5 then Buffalo. 
The way people on this board, you included, talk, the Sabres are the worst team ever. Their record, in spite of not getting the expected play from Eichel, Hall, Skinner and Dahlin are right in the middle of it. 
I’m done with this endless conversation, I’ll be back in April when the playoff race is more obvious. 

Posters have a right to be upset/negative, just as you(and others) have a right to be overly optimistic/positive.  Each side gets more frustrated as the games go by because of the other sides stance.  Your choice, but no need to go...just let it go in one ear and out the other.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

The hockey actually does duck league wide. Some divisions aren’t playing defense. Some divisions can’t play offense. The Bruins have actually been worse 5 on 5 then Buffalo. 
The way people on this board, you included, talk, the Sabres are the worst team ever. Their record, in spite of not getting the expected play from Eichel, Hall, Skinner and Dahlin are right in the middle of it. 
I’m done with this endless conversation, I’ll be back in April when the playoff race is more obvious. 

Hoping you don't bail for 2 months, but do get why you might.

The interesting thing about their season thus far is without making any goaltending adjustments in the off-season, they're right about exactly where they were expected to be (just outside a playoff spot).  But that is with Eichel playing through an injury, Dahlin playing like a tired rookie or confused sophomore, Staal for the most part being about as effective as post trip to Sweden Johansson, Hall not finishing at all, & Skinner still on the Schneid.  If any 2 of those improve to expectations & even w/out the goalie upgrade they're likely in the top 4.

[#freejame]

53 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Posters have a right to be upset/negative, just as you(and others) have a right to be overly optimistic/positive.  Each side gets more frustrated as the games go by because of the other sides stance.  Your choice, but no need to go...just let it go in one ear and out the other.

This is easily my biggest issue right now—right or (likely) wrong. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'm going to flip the script for a second and ask honestly what do we have that's good and could be part of a very good to excellent team?

1) Eichel (24) - I know he has "struggled" ytd with only 2g 7a for 9pts in 10 games.

2) Reinhart (25) - yes we didn't draft Draisaitl, but Sam is a legit top 6 forward and we have seen what we look like without him and it isn't great.

3) Olofsson (25) - PP specialist who is improving 5 on 5.  Also like his compete most nights

4) Cozens (19) - Has shown well in year 1, potential as 2C or Top 6 RW is certainly there and could arrive sooner then later

5) Lazar (26) - Center who finally shock off high expectations and has become a really nice hard working bottom 6 center with some scoring upside at 26.

6) McCabe (27) - Has become a solid shutdown D and formed a nice pairing with Risto.  Downside is a UFA.

7) Risto (26) - 26 year old may have taken longer then hoped to develop defensively, but under RK he has come around and looks now like a foundation piece.

8.) Dahlin (20) - Top 1 pick and struggled under RK's system but is coming around recently.  So much talent that just needs to be set free.

9) Jokiharju (21) - young D having some growing pains, but is kind of tracking the McCabe development curve.

Pieces on the horizon that could help.  Mittelstadt (22) maybe is reinserting himself as a near future top 9 forward?  R2 (23) could also be a nice top 9 addition sooner then later.  Quinn (19) is also a top 6 prospect, but it could be two years before he makes the NHL.

The pipeline also has assorted D and goaltenders who will eventually assume roles in Buffalo as vets moves on to keep us cap compliant like UPL (21), Bryson (23), Laaksonen (21), Johnson (19), Samuelsson (20), and Portillo (20).

That's actually a fair amount of good and most still on the right side of entering their prime.  There are also some reasonable transition pieces like Staal, Montour, Ullmark, and Rieder, outside the two bad contracts (Skinner and KO), the rest of the roster is flexible and pretty easily changed.    

The question for KA and RK is how to get them to win and how to build around those 9 core players and whether those two "leaders" are up for the challenge.

PS: If this post is to optimistic let me know.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Second Line Center]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm going to flip the script for a second and ask honestly what do we have that's good and could be part of a very good to excellent team?

1) Eichel (24) - I know he has "struggled" ytd with only 2g 7a for 9pts in 10 games.

2) Reinhart (25) - yes we didn't draft Draisaitl, but Sam is a legit top 6 forward and we have seen what we look like without him and it isn't great.

3) Olofsson (25) - PP specialist who is improving 5 on 5.  Also like his compete most nights

4) Cozens (19) - Has shown well in year 1, potential as 2C or Top 6 RW is certainly there and could arrive sooner then later

5) Lazar (26) - Center who finally shock off high expectations and has become a really nice hard working bottom 6 center with some scoring upside at 26.

6) McCabe (27) - Has become a solid shutdown D and formed a nice pairing with Risto.  Downside is a UFA.

7) Risto (26) - 26 year old may have taken longer then hoped to develop defensively, but under RK he has come around and looks now like a foundation piece.

8.) Dahlin (20) - Top 1 pick and struggled under RK's system but is coming around recently.  So much talent that just needs to be set free.

9) Jokiharju (21) - young D having some growing pains, but is kind of tracking the McCabe development curve.

Pieces on the horizon that could help.  Mittelstadt (22) maybe is reinserting himself as a near future top 9 forward?  R2 (23) could also be a nice top 9 addition sooner then later.  Quinn (19) is also a top 6 prospect, but it could be two years before he makes the NHL.

The pipeline also has assorted D and goaltenders who will eventually assume roles in Buffalo as vets moves on to keep us cap compliant like UPL (21), Bryson (23), Laaksonen (21), Johnson (19), Samuelsson (20), and Portillo (20).

That's actually a fair amount of good and most still on the right side of entering their prime.  There are also some reasonable transition pieces like Staal, Montour, Ullmark, and Rieder, outside the two bad contracts (Skinner and KO), the rest of the roster is flexible and pretty easily changed.    

The question for KA and RK is how to get them to win and how to build around those 9 core players and whether those two "leaders" are up for the challenge.

PS: If this post is to optimistic let me know.

 

 

 

 

No it's not too optimistic my problem is those core guys (Jack, Sam, VO, McCabe, Risto) are now in their mid 20s and haven't even played in a playoff game.  

Burn all the analytics.  They don't matter.  

The computer isn't going to tell you how to get rid of this Culture of Losing that is now entering year 7 for guys like Samson, Risto and basically Eichel to.  I saw that tweet with the pic of Jack basically stopping in that last shift stick on his knees.  That's the captain.  I don't care that the game is probably over.  That's not a good look and it's a little thing that speaks to something deeper.  None of that is to say I think Jack is a bad dude...he's probably great with the guys.  I'm sure they like him.  I guess.  

But he was given the C way too early.  I can't reach any other conclusion my evidence is this team is in the midst of a historic playoff drought and him and Sam are at the center of it.  

With what we pay them, and the joke that is Skinner (also a perennial loser), explain to me how this team is supposed to get better?  

It can't.  

Trades need to happen.  I'm listening to all offers for those 3.  I'm building around a new core and supplementing it with what I can get for them.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

Continuation of the previous post:

Some of these ideas are in the initial post but I think they are worth repeating.

1) KA needs to figure out where Cozens, R2 and Mitts fit long term.  Mitts has played himself back into the conversation in 2 appearances.  Now can he elevate his play with a longer stint in the lineup.  KA needs to decide if his 2 and 3 centers come from this group or are they wingers or some combo.  If he feels none are ready for the 2c role next season, then KA needs to get another stop gap.  It would help if they get a chance playing 3C this season to see how they do.

2) Hall isn’t a solution.  He is here for Jack to elevate his status like Skinner did and cash in.  We need another crappy contract like a hole in the head.  The only way I’m considering Hall is if we move on from one of both of Skinner and KO’s deals.  Harsh but true.

3) Goaltending.  Hutton needs to go now.  Ullmark is a play hard but average starting goalie, but maybe worth holding on to until UPL or Portillo develop.  We just need to get a better backup.  Otherwise scrap them both and spend to get a top flight goalie.

4) Move on from Miller and Montour.  I like Brandon, but with Dahlin and Risto here, he’s not going to be used correctly.  He has value, I’d trade him to help improve another hole on the team or for a stay at home D to play with Dahlin.

5) KA needs to get another scoring threat at RW.  Internally, maybe Olofsson moves over permanently to allow Skinner back into the top 6 as a LW or Cozens secures the role.  Regardless, Thompson, Sheahan and Okposo aren’t a 3rd line solution and until Quinn is ready, that gap will remain.

6) Real player leadership.  None of the core in my previous post know how to win at the NHL level.  It would be great if some additions to this lineup with some term have a Cup win and hold themselves and everyone else accountable to that standard.  Find a Chris Drury essentially.  Maybe it’s Killorn from TB or someone else, but we need a few guys who contribute and can force the issue in the locker room.  

7) RK - He can coach D and that has clearly improved, but he doesn’t seem to hold them accountable for bad play, his line combos stink and the offense is sputtering because of it.  Honestly, if we could get the offense really going this team could be a marginal playoff team now as is.

8.) We probably need someone else in the front office to mentor/advise KA. I honestly think his instincts this off-season were mostly good, but he took the conservative way out with only one trade for a known commodity and a bunch of FA’s on short deals.  Smart way to get your feet wet given his lack of experience and training for the job, but with some holes and decisions to make, he could use a ear to bounce ideas and offers off of.

Edited February 2, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Second Line Center see above post.

[Second Line Center]

59 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Second Line Center see above post.

 

On ice/locker room leadership - cool we brought in Staal, but it's just not that simple.  And this is tough bc we're in middle of covid protocols making interaction and team bonding near impossible.  

 

Goaltending 

Coaching

 

In order those are the biggest problems in this organization.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 minutes ago, Second Line Center said:

 

On ice/locker room leadership - cool we brought in Staal, but it's just not that simple.  And this is tough bc we're in middle of covid protocols making interaction and team bonding near impossible.  

 

Goaltending 

Coaching

 

In order those are the biggest problems in this organization.  

What Dahlin needs is what Risto, Myers and many others need; a steady stay at home cover the mistakes D partner.  Training wheels if you will. Risto has McCabe, Myers had Tallinder.  Surely a swap of Montour for such a player would benefit both Dahlin’s development and the Sabres.

[freester]

2 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

 

On ice/locker room leadership - cool we brought in Staal, but it's just not that simple.  And this is tough bc we're in middle of covid protocols making interaction and team bonding near impossible.  

 

Goaltending 

Coaching

 

In order those are the biggest problems in this organization.  

Maybe we can bring back Brian Gionta or Josh Georges if you want leadership. That didn’t go so well. 

[Weave]

24 minutes ago, freester said:

Maybe we can bring back Brian Gionta or Josh Georges if you want leadership. That didn’t go so well. 

I said back then that it was a red flag regarding our kids.  I haven't seen much that changes my opinion.

[Trettioåtta]

Maybe we could rehire Ron Rolston to coach us?

[Marvin]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What Dahlin needs is what Risto, Myers and many others need; a steady stay at home cover the mistakes D partner.  Training wheels if you will. Risto has McCabe, Myers had Tallinder.  Surely a swap of Montour for such a player would benefit both Dahlin’s development and the Sabres.

Schoenfeld had Horton.

[Marvin]

On 2/1/2021 at 2:41 PM, DarthEbriate said:

I guess I don't look as The Muppet Show as a derogatory description...    I mean, it would look like chaos but we'd be entertained, have lots of good music going around, plenty of subversive victories over the norms, and there'd be the occasional explosion.

(Don't mention explosions -- Crazy Harry might hear you!)