The Ralph Krueger put Jeff Skinner on the 4th line discussion including an excerpt from the instigators thread

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Don't expect that Skinner going against the Caps 2nd or 3rd line affects the Staal line.  The question is, does the Caps 4th line primarily play the 4th line when Lavialette can help it or the 3rd?

They're going to try to get a particular line out against Eichel's & the next line they're concerned with is Staal's.  (Realizing Sabres can dictate more than Caps can tonight.)  Maybe the Sabres could still predominantly get the Skinner line against the Caps 4th even s/ Cozens, but doubt it.  That would decidedly give an edge to the Sabres.  

Well if their 2nd line is occupied taking on Skinner and Cozens, like you said it might, that would give Staal their 3rd. 

You introduced the idea that playing against a lower line may up production, so it goes both ways. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Taro T It’s great we aren’t debating the top 2 lines for a change. I also don’t thinking anyone is mad that TT is getting a shot with Jack and Hall, although I worry that he isn’t fast enough to play with them long-term.  

I also don’t think anyone, including myself is miffed that RK is deploying a strong checking line.  We have seen, when done well, that it can make a positive difference for our team.

I think ultimately it comes down to what to do with our extra forwards.  In theory and when healthy we have the following guys to choose from; Asplund, Skinner, Mitts, Cozens, Quinn, Lazar, and Sheahan.  Skinner seems to be playing no matter what. If that is the case, it’s up to the coaching staff to figure out how best to use his talents, otherwise why play him at all?  It looks like RK’s choice is to play him with 2 guys who are barely in the NHL and who are defensive specialists.  On what planet is that “balance” or helpful to the team?  All it does is make sure we get zero production from Skinner in the handful of minutes they play against Caps and insures that 50% of our forward lines are offensively challenged, even if they only play 1/3 of the game.  

Sure the plan can change as soon as the puck drops, but with RK as coach it’s unlikely until we have significant injuries.

I hope I’m wrong and we see Cozens lining up with Lazar and Skinner, but I’m not optimistic.

Edited January 14, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't really think this is fair. I think it's fair to say that 1)when we need every point we can get for what we are attempting to achieve, even the 3rd and 4th lines are of great importance and 2) It would only be "moot" if you didn't think the decision making process that lead Krueger to make the decision in the first place is free from ever being replicated in other facets. 

It's always about the philosophy, in the end. 

...

Yeah, what you bolded came off snarkier than intended.  It actually wasn't meant as snark, but rather to highlight that because this is the 1st game of the year & there is no other counter examples of how those 3rd and 4th lines are getting put together that we all are overweighing both the importance (from one perspective) & the immateriality (from the other perspective) of this single data point.

 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well if their 2nd line is occupied taking on Skinner and Cozens, like you said it might, that would give Staal their 3rd. 

You introduced the idea that playing against a lower line may up production, so it goes both ways. 

It would.  But my expectation is that in that case the Caps preference would've already been been having their checking line going against Staal putting the Kuznetsov line against the Sabres 3rd best line which w/ Rieder Eakin Cozens is that line IMHO & Skinner Lazar Cozens in the 2nd case.

So, since moving Cozens alters which line Washington would consider the Sabres 3rd & 4th lines, it alters the deployment of their 4th line & the one not going against Eichel nor Staal (again, remembering that Krueger gets to dictate that more than Lavialette does).

[LTS]

At this point I see the argument about Skinner falling into two camps.

Either you see what is wrong with Skinner and expect him to suck it up

or 

You're his mother.

[Shootica]

Just the fact that you can make a convincing argument for having Skinner outside th top six shows how much more talented this lineup is than we've seen in years.

Regardless of if that's where we'd put him, we should all be excited about that.  Can't wait for hockey.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yeah, what you bolded came off snarkier than intended.  It actually wasn't meant as snark, but rather to highlight that because this is the 1st game of the year & there is no other counter examples of how those 3rd and 4th lines are getting put together that we all are overweighing both the importance (from one perspective) & the immateriality (from the other perspective) of this single data point.

 

A lot of the struggle comes down to one's willingness to "fresh slate" this season. 

So, so much of what I argue for on this forum is *substantially* informed by my insistence to the contrary. In fact I believe it to be critical that that line of thinking invades their mindset not one iota. I continue to see it as dangerous.

I don't claim, at all, to be objectively correct but I do feel quite certain that my stance is right for me. Just like Krueger, I'd say. 

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, LTS said:

At this point I see the argument about Skinner falling into two camps.

Either you see what is wrong with Skinner and expect him to suck it up

or 

You're his mother.

😄

But on the other hand if the consensus is this is a matter of objectivity, then my insistence that it comes down to opinion fails to "read the room", and I can understand why the mere discussion itself is leading to annoyance, as has been explained to me already. In which case...

The top 6 is going to be 🔥

- - - 

Should also be noted that even after expressing concern all *last* offseason for where things were headed, I distinctly remembering posting in a thread about "do you believe in the team?" after the quick start, that I was fully convinced we were actually good and would act that way until proven otherwise. 

I am ready and willing to point to nothing but the "win" column should we be afforded that possibility. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Taro T It’s great we aren’t debating the top 2 lines for a change. I also don’t thinking anyone is mad that TT is getting a shot with Jack and Hall, although I worry that he isn’t fast enough to play with them long-term.  

I also don’t think anyone, including myself is miffed that RK is deploying a strong checking line.  We have seen, when done well, that it can make a positive difference for our team.

I think ultimately it comes down to what to do with our extra forwards.  In theory and when healthy we have the following guys to choose from; Asplund, Skinner, Mitts, Cozens, Quinn, Lazar, and Sheahan.  Skinner seems to be playing no matter what. If that is the case, it’s up to the coaching staff to figure out how best to use his talents, otherwise why play him at all?  It looks like RK’s choice is to play him with 2 guys who are barely in the NHL and who are defensive specialists.  On what planet is that “balance” or helpful to the team?  All it does is make sure we get zero production from Skinner in the handful of minutes they play against Caps and insures that 50% of our forward lines are offensively challenged, even if they only play 1/3 of the game.

Sure the plan can change as soon as the puck drops, but with RK as coach it’s unlikely until we have significant injuries.

But, really believe the only reason the 1st choice by Krueger was to give Skinner 2 plugs is due to a convergence of 3 things: the injury to Okposo (gee, no Schlitz Sherlock, 😉 ) AND the fact that none of the kids in that pool of options has any in game experience to speak of (except Mittelstadt, whose last experience was less than satisfying); AND his goalie coach argued successfully for playing Hutton in the front end of the btb rather than the backend game.  (Remembering goalies often get told the night before who will be starting so they can go through their full pregame rituals right from when they wake up.)

In theory, it helps the team by giving Skinner easier matchups & leaves him available to take shifts in the top 6 (which isn't available should he be scratched), limits Sheahan's ES ice time, & gives Cozens 2 defensively responsible linemates lowering his burden in his 1st game limiting the possibility of a big Oops w/ Hutton in net.

Will it work out to be better than flipping Sheahan & Cozens?  Don't know.  But w/ Hutton in net, don't want to watch Miller ice the puck w/ Skinner & Cozens both out there teeing up the faceoff w/ Ovechkin hopping over the boards.  THAT is a scary thought.

[erickompositör72]

I think the league is going to take a while to figure out how to shut down Eichel/Hall (hopefully, they never do 🙂 )

 

I think that gives Ralph the flexibility to figure out where Skinner works best, while simultaneously sending a message that you must play within his system.

 

 

If we were on the playoff bubble, fighting for a spot with the season wrapping up, I'd also be very annoyed if Skinner's role was not clearly defined. However, I think the firepower we have, at least early in the season, will give us this flexibility.

Edited January 14, 2021 by erickompositör72

[MDFan]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

They are talking about how Skinner needs to be more well rounded as a player. I honestly don't agree, I need skinner to score goals. 

He is being paid $8 M per year to score goals.  Nothing else matters.  If he is not put in position to do that, the asset is wasted.  He has never been and will never be a defensive minded player.  Deal with that fact, if you are a real coach.  

[Curt]

4 hours ago, Derrico said:

I realize he mainly played on their third line and did just fine.  I also know that he played on a top line last year and scored 14 goals and 9 assists.  That's 9 assists in 59 friggen games played!!  Woof.  I also realize the Sabres missed the playoffs with him playing in said top line when the friggen playoffs were expanded to almost every team in the league.  No I'm not going to cry for Skinner because RK has him on the 4th line.

A lot will change and I suspect Skinner will end up on the third line with a guy like Cozens.  I also suspect he will be playing the second power play and his minutes will probably end up very close to 17 minutes per night.

The bolded statement is not actually true.

He played in a top 6 role with Carolina.  He got the ice time of a top 6 forward.

I also find it hard to fathom how he will get 17 mins per game if he isn’t in the top 6 of this team.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just to add some fuel to this Skinner debate, I went at looked at OZone starts.  In his 40 goal season with us, Housley deployed him 67% in the Ozone.  RK dropped that to 52% last year and his production cratered (although it that was mostly from lack of a real center to play with).  Skinner is 60% O zone starts for his career.

The reason I bring this up, is I think it supports the idea of utilizing Skinner and a couple of skilled kids in a heavy Ozone rotation, especially at home when he controls the match ups.  Just a thought.  It also lends supports to the idea of making sure that at least one linemate is defensively responsible on the road.

So

Road - Skinner Lazar Cozens

Home - Skinner Mitts Cozens

Edited January 14, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Just to add some fuel to this Skinner debate, I went at looked at OZone starts.  In his 40 goal season with us, Housley deployed him 67% in the Ozone.  RK dropped that to 52% last year and his production cratered (although it that was mostly from lack of a real center to play with).  Skinner is 60% O zone starts for his career.

The reason I bring this up, is I think it supports the idea of utilizing Skinner and a couple of skilled kids in a heavy Ozone rotation, especially at home when he controls the match ups.  Just a thought.  It also lends supports to the idea of making sure that at least one linemate is defensively responsible on the road.

So

Road - Skinner Lazar Cozens

Home - Skinner Mitts Cozens

Am perfectly fine w/ this in general.  Like it actually provided Hutton isn't in net or if Hutton has demonstrated that his health related struggles are past him.

But when Hutton's in the lineup, that bottom line becomes quite anxiety inducing.

[Brawndo]

Some food for thought

[LGR4GM]

Skinner was useless on the 4th line with terrible linemates. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Skinner was useless on the 4th line with terrible linemates. 

He did have a good chance real early, but yes it’s pretty clear it was a stupid line combo from our coach.

[Brawndo]

37 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Skinner was useless on the 4th line with terrible linemates. 

I find it interesting that two players with almost identical  metrics over the past three seasons that one is on the First Line and other is banished to the Fourth line

[apuszczalowski]

9 hours ago, Derrico said:

No it's not.  He can start doing what the coach asks regardless of what line he plays on.  RK knows what Skinner does well, score goals.  He needs him doing the other things it takes to win hockey games.

Yeah, those teams that score goals almost never win hockey games.........

[GASabresIUFAN]

Is there any debate left as to what kind of line Skinner needs to succeed?

[apuszczalowski]

3 hours ago, MDFan said:

He is being paid $8 M per year to score goals.  Nothing else matters.  If he is not put in position to do that, the asset is wasted.  He has never been and will never be a defensive minded player.  Deal with that fact, if you are a real coach.  

Instead of having a coach that will make his system fit the talent he has, like usual, Buffalo has a coach that wants to force his system onto players that aren't suited for it. Unless rules have changed and you can now win games in some other way, you still win games by scoring goals.

 

Skinner in his first season in Buffalo was Very Good at scoring goals, since then, they want to take away what he did best and force him to do other things that hes never been good at. They are basically wanting a Ferrari to be able to tow a camping trailer. But this is the same team that thinks parking a Camry (Tage) next to 2 Lambos (Hall & Eichel) will having us think its another supercar.....

[GASabresIUFAN]

Granted it only one game, but Skinner honestly has played hard tonight.  He doesn’t look like the problem. 

[Billznut]

RK is and will continue to be the problem. Skinner belongs in the first line with Eichel or he belongs in another uniform. There is NO other option. Wonder how long it takes the braintrust to figure this out. They already wasted one year. 

[LGR4GM]

30 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Granted it only one game, but Skinner honestly has played hard tonight.  He doesn’t look like the problem. 

I literally only saw Skinner make 1 bad play. He was great in transition and plays died on his teammates stick. He at a minimum should have Cozens as a linemate because his creativity is being wasted. 

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I literally only saw Skinner make 1 bad play. He was great in transition and plays died on his teammates stick. He at a minimum should have Cozens as a linemate because his creativity is being wasted. 

The funny thing about Skinner is he looked exactly like Skinner always does.