The Ralph Krueger put Jeff Skinner on the 4th line discussion including an excerpt from the instigators thread

[LabattBlue]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The owner dictating to the coach who to play and how to use players is a recipe for disaster. The coach is going to be held accountable for his decisions. If there is interference in how to coach the team he will lose his authority and respect from the players. There is nothing wrong in keeping the owner informed about what and why the coach is doing. But forcing him to follow what the owner is recommending is an awful way to run a hockey operation.

Normally I agree.  I don’t want a meddling owner...except when your HC is an idiot and can’t see how ridiculous his handling of Skinner is...who also is the 2nd highest paid player on the team for more years than any of us want to think about. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by LabattBlue

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

RK is wrong in his handling is Skinner.  Pegula approves Skinner’s monster contract and Pegula approved the hiring of RK.  

 

Now Pegula needs to tell RK that Skinner needs to be in the top 6, no matter what.  

W/ all due respect, no, no he doesn't.

[Thorner]

25 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

It's because this ad nauseam argument, without actual empirical evidence (stats of Skinner in an actual game with these actual lines) made by people who haven't even seen these lines practice, gets tiresome.

Then stay out of the thread about that exact topic JFC

And for the record there are stacks of data on Skinner, and much less on Krueger and his principles and the success they've found in the NHL. The side that wants to rely on zero empirical evidence is the one that just says "Kruger wants it that way". 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Thorny

[erickompositör72]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Then stay out of the thread about that exact topic JFC

What you're doing is like seeing half of the puzzle pieces put together, and then complaining the picture doesn't look good. You haven't seen how Ralph is going to match the lines up. You haven't seen how these linemates feed off one another. Yet you're so convinced?

 

Skinner did very well on the 2nd line with Sobotka. I'm sure he can play fine with Sheahan, against more favorable matchups.

Edited January 14, 2021 by erickompositör72

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

Normally I agree.  I don’t want a meddling owner...except when your HC is an idiot and can’t see how ridiculous his handling of Skinner is

So, we know for a fact that Skinner won't be getting time w/ the top 6 tonight?  (Which is something Krueger has always given Skinner when pressing for a goal late & right before extended stoppages in play, aka before TV timeouts & at the end of periods.)

Do we also know that Krueger won't give Skinner Cozens on his line when Okposo is healthy?  (Which could be as early as tomorrow.)

Krueger may be mishandling this situation, but there is an awful lot of black & white being presented here & really expect it is grayer than that.

PS - 1 last thing that should've gone w/ my last reply to @Thorny, a good reason to play the defensive bottom 6 line more than the offensive bottom 6 line is the goalie isCarter friggin' Hutton.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

What you're doing is like seeing half of the puzzle pieces put together, and then complaining the picture doesn't look good. You haven't seen how Ralph is going to match the lines up. You haven't seen how these linemates feed off one another. Yet you're so convinced?

 

Skinner did very well on the 2nd line with Sobotka. I'm sure he can play fine with Sheahan, against more favorable matchups.

You heard him. Close the website. 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

RK is wrong in his handling is Skinner.  Pegula approves Skinner’s monster contract and Pegula approved the hiring of RK.  

 

Now Pegula needs to tell RK that Skinner needs to be in the top 6, no matter what.  

I can't believe you are seriously advocating this.

You are essentially firing the coach, neutering the GM, and telling every person in the organization that the inmates are running the asylum

Not to mention confirming every nightmare belief out there about our ownership and ensuring most capable coaches or general managers will avoid Buffalo lke the plague.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by dudacek

[LabattBlue]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

So, we know for a fact that Skinner won't be getting time w/ the top 6 tonight?  (Which is something Krueger has always given Skinner when pressing for a goal late & right before extended stoppages in play, aka before TV timeouts & at the end of periods.)

Do we also know that Krueger won't give Skinner Cozens on his line when Okposo is healthy?  (Which could be as early as tomorrow.)

Krueger may be mishandling this situation, but there is an awful lot of black & white being presented here & really expect it is grayer than that.

PS - 1 last thing that should've gone w/ my last reply to @Thorny, a good reason to play the defensive bottom 6 line more than the offensive bottom 6 line is the goalie isCarter friggin' Hutton.

When Skinner is given an extended chance in the Top 6, then I will be glad to change my  stance on RK. 

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I can't believe you are seriously advocating this.

You are essentially firing the coach, neutering the GM, and telling every person in the organization that the inmates are running the asylum

Not to mentioning confirming every nightmare belief out there about our ownership and ensuring most capable coaches or general managers will avoid Buffalo lke the plague.

 

yes, my opinion of Pegula is out there, and no, I don’t expect it to really happen, but it is a frustrating waste of 9 mil in cap space as it stands today. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by LabattBlue

[erickompositör72]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

When Skinner is given an extended chance in the Top 6, then I will be gad to chance by stance on RK. 

I'm holding out hope the top 6 is fine without Skinner, and Skinner scores goals on whatever line he is put on.

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

When Skinner is given an extended chance in the Top 6, then I will be glad to chance by stance on RK.

You know Skinner started camp with a week-long stint with Reinhart and Staal and played himself out of that slot, right?

[Thorner]

13 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And with the lines set as they are, Skinner will be playing 3rd pair D &/or 4th liners.  Skinner scores 2 ways predominantly: off rebounds or off zone exits he steals the puck from.  Is he really going to be getting many of the former w/ or w/out Cozens especially going against tougher opponents than the Caps 4th line?

But how many more opportunities does he have to "self help" against the 4th line relative to the other lines?  That's probably substantial.

And, pretty sure we all agree Cozens, even in his 1st game, is a better player than Sheahan so he should get more ice time than him.  Playing on the defensive bottom 6 line will get him more than playing on the offensive bottom 6 line.

Skinner will get time w/ the top 6.  Cozens won't.

Yes, I think Cozens would be a massive help to Skinner in a scoring role. 

You are getting too hung up on the line that is going to play the most. Ralph can play the offensive line in minutes/matchups that would serve their offence. 

Hell, he can play that line more than the Eakin line. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

When Skinner is given an extended chance in the Top 6, then I will be gad to chance by stance on RK. 

Define "extended."

Barring injury in the top 6, doubt Skinner plays regularly there unless both Thompson & Cozens fail there.  (Could be another offensively upsided kid getting a crack there before Skinner goes there full time as well.)  The belief being the lack of disruption to a higher line plus Skinner's ability to generate on his own will result in more total net goal differential than having Skinner top 6 & somebody that can't drive a line on the 3rd offensive line.

But do expect he gets 1-2 shifts every period in the top 6.

[Thorner]

Am I correct in saying, @Taro Tthat given the players available to us you'd configure the lines in the same way Kruger is doing, if you were behind the bench?

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Yes, I think Cozens would be a massive help to Skinner in a scoring role. 

You are getting too hung up on the line that is going to play the most. Ralph can play the offensive line in minutes/matchups that would serve their offence. 

Hell, he can play that line more than the Eakin line. 

Maybe on Friday he can should Okposo still be out, but not with Hutton between the pipes he can't.  IMHO.

[LabattBlue]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You know Skinner started camp with a week-long stint with Reinhart and Staal and played himself out of that slot, right?

You mean practice?  No actual NHL regular season games?

[Thorner]

Just now, Taro T said:

Maybe on Friday he can should Okposo still be out, but not with Hutton between the pipes he can't.  IMHO.

I'd much rather keep Skinner in the opponent's end as far away from Hutton as possible. 

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

You mean practice?  No actual NHL regular season games?

The argument for why Krueger is handling Skinner properly in games is now that he handled him the same way in practice. 

Yes, I also disagree with him moving Skinner off that line in practice. 

[bunomatic]

I guess it would make a guy feel pretty superior turning a forty goal guy into a 10 goal guy. Thats great defence Ralph.

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Maybe on Friday he can should Okposo still be out, but not with Hutton between the pipes he can't.  IMHO.

And again, it's not about maximizing Cozens ice time. It's about winning. The checking line that you want to play as much as possible is functionally the same with Sheahan, IMO. 

Sure Cozens may play less if he's playing with Skinner, but I think he'd willingly trade that for offensive action that he's not going to see with Eakin and Rieder. 

And regardless of what Cozens thinks, the team would be better. We'd have a third line that can score, and still our checking line, instead of a checking line and a nothing line. He's wasting a full line. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

Am I correct in saying, @Taro Tthat given the players available to us you'd configure the lines in the same way Kruger is doing, if you were behind the bench?

IF the stipulation is that we (my coaching staff & I) believe it is better to have Thompson in the top 6 & Skinner out based on all we have seen at camp (and the 2nd scrimmage is the only action that's available from my perspective, so that prior stipulation probably actually is valid) AND Bales has made a convincing argument to give Hutton tonight's start (and that IS the risk adverse choice all things considered); then yes, this is how the lines would start.

But how they're deployed in the 2nd or 3rd is not set in stone.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

IF the stipulation is that we (my coaching staff & I) believe it is better to have Thompson in the top 6 & Skinner out based on all we have seen at camp (and the 2nd scrimmage is the only action that's available from my perspective, so that prior stipulation probably actually is valid) AND Bales has made a convincing argument to give Hutton tonight's start (and that IS the risk adverse choice all things considered); then yes, this is how the lines would start.

But how they're deployed in the 2nd or 3rd is not set in stone.

Thanks for the clarification. 

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

And again, it's not about maximizing Cozens ice time. It's about winning. The checking line that you want to play as much as possible is functionally the same with Sheahan, IMO. 

Sure Cozens may play less if he's playing with Skinner, but I think he'd willingly trade that for offensive action that he's not going to see with Eakin and Rieder. 

And regardless of what Cozens thinks, the team would be better. We'd have a third line that can score, and still our checking line, instead of a checking line and a nothing line. He's wasting a full line. 

OK, how about MINIMIZING Sheahan's non-PK ice time?  Which is inversely correlated to Cozen's ES ice time.  😉

Also, having Cozens & Skinner together gets that line either the Caps 2nd or 3rd line, rather than their 4th.  Skinner IMHO will generate more going against their 4th line on his own than he will against their checking line or the Kuznetzov line w/ Cozens riding shotgun.

Not saying am fully on board w/ taking Skinner off the Staal line, but have ONLY seen the 2nd scrimmage and in that both top lines had chemistry, so it isn't completely open & shut that Skinner must be back up there.

ALL of this hand wringing over the 3rd & 4th lines and the wrangling going back & forth is because they are trying to back fill Okposo's injury.  It'll be moot as soon as tomorrow.

But, isn't it nice to have something real hockey related to debate, and even nicer have it be about the 3RW & 4RW rather than crud like wtf is Sobotka in the top 6 or wtf will Botterill trade a D-man?

Edited January 14, 2021 by Taro T

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

OK, how about MINIMIZING Sheahan's non-PK ice time?  Which is inversely correlated to Cozen's ES ice time.  😉

Also, having Cozens & Skinner together gets that line either the Caps 2nd or 3rd line, rather than their 4th.  Skinner IMHO will generate more going against their 4th line on his own than he will against their checking line or the Kuznetzov line w/ Cozens riding shotgun.

Not saying am fully on board w/ taking Skinner off the Staal line, but have ONLY seen the 2nd scrimmage and in that both top lines had chemistry, so it isn't comp,every open & shut that Skinnef must be back up there.

ALL of this hand wringing over the 3rd & 4th lines and the wrangling going back & forth is because they are trying to back fill Okposo's injury.  It'll be moot as soon as tomorrow.

But, isn't it nice to have something real hockey related to debate, and even nicer have it be about the 3RW & 4RW rather than crud like wtf is Sobotka in the top 6 or wtf will Botterill trade a D-man.

But imagine what Staal and Reinhart do against their 3rd. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Thorny

[erickompositör72]

33 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You heard him. Close the website. 

Maybe we should. Most exciting Sabres lineup in over a decade, yet some people are fixated on the bottom 6

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

OK, how about MINIMIZING Sheahan's non-PK ice time?  Which is inversely correlated to Cozen's ES ice time.  😉

Also, having Cozens & Skinner together gets that line either the Caps 2nd or 3rd line, rather than their 4th.  Skinner IMHO will generate more going against their 4th line on his own than he will against their checking line or the Kuznetzov line w/ Cozens riding shotgun.

Not saying am fully on board w/ taking Skinner off the Staal line, but have ONLY seen the 2nd scrimmage and in that both top lines had chemistry, so it isn't comp,every open & shut that Skinnef must be back up there.

ALL of this hand wringing over the 3rd & 4th lines and the wrangling going back & forth is because they are trying to back fill Okposo's injury.  It'll be moot as soon as tomorrow.

But, isn't it nice to have something real hockey related to debate, and even nicer have it be about the 3RW & 4RW rather than crud like wtf is Sobotka in the top 6 or wtf will Botterill trade a D-man.

I don't really think this is fair. I think it's fair to say that 1)when we need every point we can get for what we are attempting to achieve, even the 3rd and 4th lines are of great importance and 2) It would only be "moot" if you didn't think the decision making process that lead Krueger to make the decision in the first place is free from ever being replicated in other facets. 

It's always about the philosophy, in the end. 

5 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Maybe we should. Most exciting Sabres lineup in over a decade, yet some people are fixated on the bottom 6

Because there is nothing to talk about re: the top 6. I expect them to be really good. 

What is your issue? Just block my posts. I don't even understand why it bothers you I seek to discuss other aspects of the roster. It's not enough for me to just be happy with the top 6, I want to make the playoffs. 

If all that's needed for you to feel satisfied is the prospect/performance of the top 6, that's honestly great and I am happy for you. That's not snark. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

But imagine what Staal and Reinhart do against their 3rd. 

Don't expect that Skinner going against the Caps 2nd or 3rd line affects the Staal line.  The question is, does the Caps 4th line primarily play the 4th line when Lavialette can help it or the 3rd?

They're going to try to get a particular line out against Eichel's & the next line they're concerned with is Staal's.  (Realizing Sabres can dictate more than Caps can tonight.)  Maybe the Sabres could still predominantly get the Skinner line against the Caps 4th even s/ Cozens, but doubt it.  That would decidedly give an edge to the Sabres.