The Ralph Krueger put Jeff Skinner on the 4th line discussion including an excerpt from the instigators thread

[inkman]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Cozens isn’t playing tonight w Skinner  Hard to move up if you don’t get a legit chance to show your worth.

 

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Lysowski said Cozens has Okposo's spot.  Has that changed?

What Taro said.  

[Shootica]

Honestly, I agree with the "he needs to play to the principles" argument.  Time after time, we see that the teams who fully buy in are the teams that succeed in this league.  And from a managerial standpoint, you cannot lay down a set of rules for the whole team, ignore those rules for one guy, and expect the rest to buy in.

I don't think that means he should be dumped with Sheahan and Lazar thought, because that defeats the point of that line.

With how this roster is built, I'd run things like this.

Line 1: Most minutes.  All situations.

Line 2: Similar minutes, maybe slightly less.  All situations.

Line 3: Reduced minutes, heavy offensive usage.

Line 4: Reduced minutes, heavy defensive usage.

With Skinner, if he isn't buying into the system I'd put him on that 'line 3'.  Tell him that if he wants top six minutes back, he needs to put in the work in both ends to be trusted again outside of sheltered minutes.

That way, his offensive abilities are still being utilized and he isn't hamstringing a defensive line.  But hopefully the reduced minutes lights enough of a fire under him to start playing the right way.

[BuffalOhio]

18 minutes ago, Radar said:

Rivet was a very good hockey player but frankly I don't like him on the Instigators. He makes the most simple statement sound so profound and is a total homer in most cases. I like Marty,Rob and Peters much better than Rivet. JMO.

Rivet is OK, but if I hear just one more "Eyng gonna tell ya," I might lose what's left of my mind.

[Derrico]

15 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Hard to move up if you don’t get a legit chance to show your worth.

No it's not.  He can start doing what the coach asks regardless of what line he plays on.  RK knows what Skinner does well, score goals.  He needs him doing the other things it takes to win hockey games.

[Scottysabres]

So, if Skinner cannot, or will not practise and implement the team principles successfully, do they ask him to waive his NMC and expose him to the expansion draft, try and trade him or just sit 9 mil aav in the press box for a good number of years? I guess I'm not understanding where Skinner goes from here if he cannot acclimate to the team principles.

[Shootica]

2 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

So, if Skinner cannot, or will not practise and implement the team principles successfully, do they ask him to waive his NMC and expose him to the expansion draft, try and trade him or just sit 9 mil aav in the press box for a good number of years? I guess I'm not understanding where Skinner goes from here if he cannot acclimate to the team principles.

That's the nuclear option.  You do everything possible to make it work before going near that.

And if you're at the point where you would go that route, his contract's value would be so negative that no team in the league including Seattle would want to be in the same room as him.

[pi2000]

Skinner is good enough in other areas IMO to play in the top 6.   I've never seen him as a huge defensive liability.    He can be a puck hound and very disruptive on the forecheck causing turnovers, elite finish ability around the net.     That's his game.    

That said, I liked what I saw from Tage Thompson in camp and in the scrimmages, but can anybody definitively say that he's more deserving of that spot than Skinner?   It's completely baffling to me.    Maybe somethine to do with off-ice stuff?   I don't know, but frankly I don't trust RK's intuition on this... what has he really done as an NHL coach anyway?   He's a likable guy, players like him?  Great, good for you... I realy don't give a ***** if you're a likable coach, just win. 

 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Shootica said:

Honestly, I agree with the "he needs to play to the principles" argument.  Time after time, we see that the teams who fully buy in are the teams that succeed in this league.  And from a managerial standpoint, you cannot lay down a set of rules for the whole team, ignore those rules for one guy, and expect the rest to buy in.

I don't think that means he should be dumped with Sheahan and Lazar thought, because that defeats the point of that line.

With how this roster is built, I'd run things like this.

Line 1: Most minutes.  All situations.

Line 2: Similar minutes, maybe slightly less.  All situations.

Line 3: Reduced minutes, heavy offensive usage.

Line 4: Reduced minutes, heavy defensive usage.

With Skinner, if he isn't buying into the system I'd put him on that 'line 3'.  Tell him that if he wants top six minutes back, he needs to put in the work in both ends to be trusted again outside of sheltered minutes.

That way, his offensive abilities are still being utilized and he isn't hamstringing a defensive line.  But hopefully the reduced minutes lights enough of a fire under him to start playing the right way.

Except the way the lines are structured, line 3 is the heavy D usage line & line 4 is the heavier O usage line.  Skinner doesn't belong on the D line & Cozens was viewed as the best option after Okposo, Girgensons, and Reider for that line.  If Girgensons is healthy, maybe Cozens doesn't get in, but my guess is he'd get the 4RW slot ahead of Rieder and he definitely gets it w/ Z out & Kyle in.

And if Cozens is 4R then much of this concern over Skinner is alleviated (though not all).

[erickompositör72]

Just for some historical context:

 

Was the word that JBott didn't want to give Skinner that big of a contract, but Terry insisted?

[Derrico]

1 minute ago, Shootica said:

That's the nuclear option.  You do everything possible to make it work before going near that.

And if you're at the point where you would go that route, his contract's value would be so negative that no team in the league including Seattle would want to be in the same room as him.

Yep.  If this were to drag on (which I don't think it will) then you absolutely expose him and hope Seattle takes him.  Something will get worked out.  The style Skinner plays I'm fine with him on a third line but was hoping he got a Cozens to play with.

[pi2000]

7 minutes ago, Derrico said:

No it's not.  He can start doing what the coach asks regardless of what line he plays on.  RK knows what Skinner does well, score goals.  He needs him doing the other things it takes to win hockey games.

What exactly are these "other things" tho?   And do we know for certain Tage Thompson is doing these things?    There should be tangible visible evidence.

[Shootica]

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

Just for some historical context:

 

Was the word that JBott didn't want to give Skinner that big of a contract, but Terry insisted?

I forget where I read that, but I believe the quote was that Botterill doesn't really believe in major long-term deals. 

I forget if Skinner was specifically mentioned, but it can be assumed that either ownership trumped him on that contract or that Skinner's agent really pulled Botterill outside of his principles.

[steveoath]

6 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

He can be a puck hound and very disruptive on the forecheck causing turnovers, elite finish ability around the net.     That's his game.    

This is why I would have liked to see him with Eakin and Cozens. Would be a quick line that could forecheck with crazy pace, although you would be asking rookie to be the responsible one.

[dudacek]

47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Can I ask why you draw this conclusion?

I think Ray hints at it in the Instigators segment.

Supporting evidence: when was the last time you saw Skinner find the open man?

[Shootica]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Except the way the lines are structured, line 3 is the heavy D usage line & line 4 is the heavier O usage line.  Skinner doesn't belong on the D line & Cozens was viewed as the best option after Okposo, Girgensons, and Reider for that line.  If Girgensons is healthy, maybe Cozens doesn't get in, but my guess is he'd get the 4RW slot ahead of Rieder and he definitely gets it w/ Z out & Kyle in.

And if Cozens is 4R then much of this concern over Skinner is alleviated (though not all).

Yeah, that's where I disagree with the lines as they're constructed today.

I don't really care which one we want to call 3 and which we want to call 4, but I think a defined offensive line and defined defensive line is preferable to the hodgepodge we have now.

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think Ray hints at it in the Instigators segment.

Supporting evidence: when was the last time you saw Skinner find the open man?

I can't remember the last time I saw Skinner play. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

37 minutes ago, Derrico said:

No it's not.  He can start doing what the coach asks regardless of what line he plays on.  RK knows what Skinner does well, score goals.  He needs him doing the other things it takes to win hockey games.

No we don't.  We need him to score goals.  As many as possible, especially 5 on 5.  Brett Hull is in the HOF because he scored goals, not because he backchecked.  I never said Skinner shouldn't buy in and work to improve his two way game.  However, the team needs him to score and our coach has decided to limit his ability to do so.  

That's just wrong.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Cozens isn’t playing tonight w Skinner  Hard to move up if you don’t get a legit chance to show your worth.

 

54 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Lysowski said Cozens has Okposo's spot.  Has that changed?

I updated my post, although I did see that Asplund may sub in for Okposo instead of Cozens.  That doesn't change the fact the RK is playing Skinner with Lazar and Sheahan as predicted.

[dudacek]

I am interesting to see how hard Skinner works out there.

Who is going to blame Ralph if he coasts?

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

I updated my post, although I did see that Asplund may sub in for Okposo instead of Cozens.  That doesn't change the fact the RK is playing Skinner with Lazar and Sheahan as predicted.

Because Okposo is out.  That 3rd line will get more ice time than the 4th and he wasn't going to put Sheahan on it because of that.  Cozens had been practicing on the 4th line until Okposo was hurt.  And he'd've been there if Okposo could play.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Because Okposo is out.  That 3rd line will get more ice time than the 4th and he wasn't going to put Sheahan on it because of that.  Cozens had been practicing on the 4th line until Okposo was hurt.  And he'd've been there if Okposo could play.

Why play both Sheahan and Lazar with Skinner?  Why not just play one and at least give Skinner one skilled forward to play with? RK talks about balanced lines, but what balance is there with Skinner and two guys who are D first forwards neither of which has shown any playmaking ability at the NHL level.  Slide Sheahan or Asplund in for Okposo to keep the checking nature of that line intact and put Cozens with Skinner and Lazar.  That's more balanced. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Derrico]

24 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No we don't.  We need him to score goals.  As many as possible, especially 5 on 5.  Brett Hull is in the HOF because he scored goals, not because he backchecked.  I never said Skinner shouldn't buy in and work to improve his two way game.  However, the team needs him to score and our coach has decided to limit his ability to do so.  

That's just wrong.  

Skinner plays a unique game.  He's not a set up man in the least.  He will get his regardless of where he plays in the lineup.  Again, they did the exact same thing in Carolina and he got his just the same.  We needed him scoring goals last year and he didn't do that in the top 6 either......

[I-90 W]

I know this is a divisive situation in Sabre land right now, and I understand both points. But I’m definitely on RKs side. Everyone needs to buy in to the system, and break free from bad habits. I like Skinner a lot but hope he will play the way the coach wants him to, otherwise not only will he be wasted but it will continue to be a locker room problem. Just my 2 cents.

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Skinner plays a unique game.  He's not a set up man in the least.  He will get his regardless of where he plays in the lineup.  Again, they did the exact same thing in Carolina and he got his just the same.  We needed him scoring goals last year and he didn't do that in the top 6 either......

You realize that Skinner averaged 17 minutes a night over his 8 years in Raleigh with a low of 16:03.  He won't come close to that PT under RK.  

[Taro T]

28 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why play both Sheahan and Lazar?  Why not just play one and at least give Skinner one skilled forward to play with? 

Pretty sure they're both in the line up primarily for PK but also to be able to shorten the bench should Cozens look like he did in the 2nd scrimmage.

Personally, would probably give either Sheahan or Asplund the Cozens role & give Cozens his original 4RW role, but it appears Krueger is playing it safer.  Remember, this is also the Caps game he's starting Hutton; so playing it safe has a logic to it.  😉