Is Cozens Ready?

[freester]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Link?

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hockey-central/id354153569?i=1000504534345
 

it’s near the end somewhere.  I listen to this podcast all the time. It’s a very informative but skewed towards the Toronto market a bit. 

[Curt]

21 minutes ago, freester said:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hockey-central/id354153569?i=1000504534345
 

it’s near the end somewhere.  I listen to this podcast all the time. It’s a very informative but skewed towards the Toronto market a bit. 

So, Burke said the players who are nhl ready from the tournament are, in order Byram, Lundell, Hienola, Podkolzin.  That’s it.  Then Zegras and Cozens were next.  He didn’t really go into details.

[Zamboni]

1 hour ago, freester said:

Brian Burke doesn’t think so. He said so today on Hockey central podcast 

That show is one of the best. Waaaaaay better that the anything 550 passes for hockey discussion.

And I couldn’t care less what Burke thinks.

[PerreaultForever]

Wow, just wow.

You guys are going to break your hips jumping on and off the bandwagon so fast.

Cozens was the first team all star in that tournament. You seem to have missed that. 

Will he instantly dominate in the NHL no, obviously not. Did you really think he would?

Is he ready? Yes. He will have ups and downs but he's ready. If you think he isn't already better than most of our bottom six you simply don't know hockey at all. There I said it. 

[freester]

I just think we need to have realistic expectations for what a young kid can do with limited training camp and no AHL experience. He will probably get more minutes than planned due to Zemgus being out, but I don’t see him as an impact player this year. 

[Curt]

55 minutes ago, freester said:

I just think we need to have realistic expectations for what a young kid can do with limited training camp and no AHL experience. He will probably get more minutes than planned due to Zemgus being out, but I don’t see him as an impact player this year. 

Impact player?  Not positive what that is, but probably not.

I think he will probably fine in a limited role though, similar to what Kirby Dach did last season.  We’ll know more after seeing him in a few games.

[inkman]

9 hours ago, Curt said:

So, Burke said the players who are nhl ready from the tournament are, in order Byram, Lundell, Hienola, Podkolzin.  That’s it.  Then Zegras and Cozens were next.  He didn’t really go into details.

 

9 hours ago, Zamboni said:

That show is one of the best. Waaaaaay better that the anything 550 passes for hockey discussion.

And I couldn’t care less what Burke thinks.

Yeah I’ve said it before, probably in this thread.  Leave the dinosaurs and their prehistoric takes to die.  These missing links understand today’s game about as much as my dog.  

[JohnC]

29 minutes ago, Curt said:

Impact player?  Not positive what that is, but probably not.

I think he will probably fine in a limited role though, similar to what Kirby Dach did last season.  We’ll know more after seeing him in a few games.

As you smartly noted the Kirby Dach is the model to follow in how Cozens should be handled. You start him off in a limited role and let him get acclimated to the NHL game. By the end of the season Dach's role increased. There is no rush to push a young player beyond what he is capable of. If Cozens is overmatched then you adjust his role downwards. If he demonstrates he can handle more responsibility you increase it. 

Krueger is experienced in coaching young players in world tournaments. He knows how to bring them along and put them in a position to succeed. Cozens is undoubtedly going to make this roster. It's unlikely that at the start, or maybe even at all this season, that he will be placed on one of the top two lines. As a rookie he is going to have his struggles and he also will have interludes of outstanding play. The playing time he gets and the role he plays will be dictated by how he plays. He's not Mitts when he was at the same juncture. My prediction is that as the season advances he will be a contributing player. 

[Shootica]

10 hours ago, freester said:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hockey-central/id354153569?i=1000504534345
 

it’s near the end somewhere.  I listen to this podcast all the time. It’s a very informative but skewed towards the Toronto market a bit. 

They talk about that at the 28 minute mark for those curious.  They mention names but don't go into detail on why they don't have Cozens in that 'most NHL ready' group.  I enjoy hearing Burke's opinions on their show, so I'm curious what his reasons are there.

I think there's little harm in starting Cozens out in a limited role in the NHL akin to Dach as people have mentioned.  And I think he should be ready for that.  But there's always the chance that he struggles and looks in over his head.  There's just no way to know until we try it.

[SwampD]

Am I a bad person ifi don’t think he is ready for the NHL, as well? I think he should cook for another year.

[tom webster]

I’m on record as saying I don’t think playing in the AHL does anything for his development. I believe that being part of the taxi squad and playing when they feel they can use him will result in the same, if not better development path.

I also believe that like scouting, teams will start to realize that teams will realize they don’t need farm teams to develop talent and a careful cost/benefit analysis will result in a change to this taxi squad model.

[Curt]

20 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Am I a bad person ifi don’t think he is ready for the NHL, as well? I think he should cook for another year.

YES!  Just kidding.

Do you think he should get a few NHL games to see?

[JohnC]

28 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Am I a bad person ifi don’t think he is ready for the NHL, as well? I think he should cook for another year.

You are not a bad person but a person who needs to have someone spank some sense into you. A few taps properly administered will do you some good.  ☠️😛🤡

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12257887/video-man-spanking-child-sparks-parenting-debate/

[inkman]

34 minutes ago, SwampD said:

 I think he should cook for another year.

In a laundry list of terms that I loathe, this has ascended to the top of the list.  Can we stop referring to humans beings as if they are food.  He needs more seasoning.  Let him marinate in the minors.  Let him cook.  Is this Hannibal Lector infiltrating all walks of life?  SMH.  

[dudacek]

I am not expecting Cozens to make an impact, nor am I expecting him to be over his head.

His game is not advanced enough to fully take advantage of his his physical gifts at the next level. But he is fast enough and strong enough (and, from what I've seen, mature enough) to not be overwhelmed.

Nobody knows if he is ready for the NHL, but they do know he's ready for a bigger challenge than the WHL.

[Taro T]

20 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I’m on record as saying I don’t think playing in the AHL does anything for his development. I believe that being part of the taxi squad and playing when they feel they can use him will result in the same, if not better development path.

I also believe that like scouting, teams will start to realize that teams will realize they don’t need farm teams to develop talent and a careful cost/benefit analysis will result in a change to this taxi squad model.

You'd mentioned this recently, am curious how you see that getting implemented.  Going to a taxi squad model seems to me on 1st glance that it'll take a lot of money out of the sport as the AHL would surely (?) both contract and have the talent diluted as guys like Borgen, Thompson, and Mittelstadt (guys that are close, but not quite ready) end up no longer on the rosters.

Suppose that some career AHLers would stick around rather than go overseas without vet roster limits, but also expect that would drive salaries up.  There were reasons that the IHL failed and they go beyond Doug Moss being at the helm.  😉

See that change causing more harm than good, but haven't put nearly as much thought into it as you have.  Could be missing some (several?) finer points.

[inkman]

27 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I’m on record as saying I don’t think playing in the AHL does anything for his development. I believe that being part of the taxi squad and playing when they feel they can use him will result in the same, if not better development path.

I also believe that like scouting, teams will start to realize that teams will realize they don’t need farm teams to develop talent and a careful cost/benefit analysis will result in a change to this taxi squad model.

What do you base this on?  Empirical data? It’s not easy to prove out but to just dismiss something that has been in place for a century seems rather flippant.  
 

One would thing having a player play in all situations, soaking up as much ice time as they can handle, experiencing every aspect of professional hockey would benefit somehow.  
 

To hell with it, just have everyone go right from pee wee to the NHL.   Nothing to learn unless they are with serious pros like Risto or Matt Ellis.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

He dominated the WJC.  There is no place for him in juniors at this point.

He has zero NHL experience, so I would give him his 9 (pro-rated, I presume) games and then assign him to the taxi squad thingie, or whatever they call it and get him into some more games.

[SwampD]

35 minutes ago, Curt said:

YES!  Just kidding.

Do you think he should get a few NHL games to see?

Absolutely.

19 minutes ago, inkman said:

In a laundry list of terms that I loathe, this has ascended to the top of the list.  Can we stop referring to humans beings as if they are food.  He needs more seasoning.  Let him marinate in the minors.  Let him cook.  Is this Hannibal Lector infiltrating all walks of life?  SMH.  

He does look delicious, though, doesn’t he?. I just don’t want to get worms If he’s underdone. Plus, I need more juice to come out to make the gravy.

[Taro T]

Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

He dominated the WJC.  There is no place for him in juniors at this point.

He has zero NHL experience, so I would give him his 9 (pro-rated, I presume) games and then assign him to the taxi squad thingie, or whatever they call it and get him into some more games.

The taxi squad is going to be run similarly to the way the NFL's practice squad was run this season.  Guys stay with the team but on reduced salaries (they get paid their AHL salaries rather than their NHL salaries (for guys on 1 way contracts, those are identical) and they can be bumped up or down as the coach / GM sees fit (providing they clear waivers to initially be put on the squad and then again should they play in 10 NHL games or spend 30 days on the NHL roster, presuming they are waiver eligible).

So, they won't actually play any games AHL or NHL while designated to be on the taxi squad, but the designation of whether they are active roster or taxi squad can change daily.  The league effectively expanded the available healthy scratches from 3 to 9(?).  (Still haven't seen officially how many players can/need to be on the taxi squad.  Reports say 4-6 w/ the team carrying at least 3 goalies between the regular team & the taxi squad.  So, presumably there will be 20-23 healthy rosters players plus 4-6 taxi squad guys for a total of 24-29 players, but haven't seen that confirmed.)

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I think Tom means that he believes that most development comes from both physical and mental maturity rather than learning the game in the A.  I tend to agree to a certain extent.  However, I also believe that kids continue to learn and can improve their skills in developmental leagues.  From a average person point of view, why go to college or trade school if you can't learn new skills or improve on the ones you have past 18?

I think if you asked Pommers, Roy and Soupy, they will all tell you that playing in the A improved their games.  Yes, all three developed physically, but their skill level and hockey IQ also improved in the minors.  

RK was pretty clear that Mitts improved as a player in his short stint in the A and earned a return to the Sabres if last year hadn't been cut short.  At the same time, Mitts has also clearly developed physically.  Not a surprise.  It's been 3 plus years since he was drafted.  The physical maturity between a 18 year old kid and a 22 year old man is significant.  This lack of physical maturity is one of the reasons I'm concerned about Cozens.  

 

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

You'd mentioned this recently, am curious how you see that getting implemented.  Going to a taxi squad model seems to me on 1st glance that it'll take a lot of money out of the sport as the AHL would surely (?) both contract and have the talent diluted as guys like Borgen, Thompson, and Mittelstadt (guys that are close, but not quite ready) end up no longer on the rosters.

Suppose that some career AHLers would stick around rather than go overseas without vet roster limits, but also expect that would drive salaries up.  There were reasons that the IHL failed and they go beyond Doug Moss being at the helm.  😉

See that change causing more harm than good, but haven't put nearly as much thought into it as you have.  Could be missing some (several?) finer points.

I have had several conversations regarding this but the main point is that the prevailing opinion from those that have studied this a lot more in depth then myself is that while there will always be a player or two that uses the AHL to develop their game, the cost of running these operations outweighs the benefits. There really is no way to judge if it’s a correct assumption or not until it’s fully implemented, if ever, but a guy like Cozens, would his career arc not be the same if he spent a year practicing, working out and eating with the team while playing a game or two per week until he was ready for more?

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

What do you base this on?  Empirical data? It’s not easy to prove out but to just dismiss something that has been in place for a century seems rather flippant.  
 

One would thing having a player play in all situations, soaking up as much ice time as they can handle, experiencing every aspect of professional hockey would benefit somehow.  
 

To hell with it, just have everyone go right from pee wee to the NHL.   Nothing to learn unless they are with serious pros like Risto or Matt Ellis.  

The baseball reserve clause was in place fir close to one hundred years.

However, I don’t necessarily disagree with the first two paragraphs. However, look how much has changed in the last few years with regard to what most hockey lifers felt was so vital to success. 
As far as the AHL, hockey players that can’t make the NHL aren’t just going to disappear, the business model will just change. 
All you have to do for proof that these things are not a figment of my imagination is look at the evolving relationship Major League Baseball teams and their minor leagues.

[inkman]

5 minutes ago, tom webster said:

The baseball reserve clause was in place fir close to one hundred years.

However, I don’t necessarily disagree with the first two paragraphs. However, look how much has changed in the last few years with regard to what most hockey lifers felt was so vital to success. 
As far as the AHL, hockey players that can’t make the NHL aren’t just going to disappear, the business model will just change. 
All you have to do for proof that these things are not a figment of my imagination is look at the evolving relationship Major League Baseball teams and their minor leagues.

I suppose it will evolve naturally albeit much slower due to the T-Rexes in charge.  Like baseball and football, analytics will take over and set the correct path.  
 

I’ll have to reconcile my own personal disappointment with no longer having the Sabres prospects at my disposal 20 minutes down 490.  Maybe by then I’ll call it “the 490”.  
 

Then again how many great prospects have I got to watch “cook” (ugh!!) over the last decade.   

[Pimlach]

On 1/6/2021 at 12:00 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

He had a great tournament until the biggest game of his young life.  He played on the perimeter to much and seemed to be missing the aggression he exhibited earlier in the tourney against weaker opponents.

Now we are asking him to be that power forward in the biggest toughest league in the world.  My honest assessment is that like Mitts before him, he isn't physically ready for the NHL.  He honestly looks like he needs 15-20 lbs more to play his game in the NHL.  '

That may not mean he won’t be effective in another role, but I'm thinking he would be better off developing another year away from the NHL.

Who says he ready to be a power forward?   He is a 3rd or 4th line player this year and he moves up if he earns it and if it helps the team.  That is the only way to run a team   

He is already past Mitts on the physical side and he has much room to get stronger and grow.  
 

By your assessment none of the players on Canada are ready because they pretty much all played a timid, perimeter game.  Canada played flat, the USA had a harder road and that helped them in the big game.