Should NHL stop this kind of silly trade?

[Curt]

My real question on this topic is, why does LTIR exist in its current form?

I get it for a player who is out for a season due to injury, but why these guys who are never coming back to play?

I think should be a limit to how long a player can be on LTIR.  Even if it’s very lenient, like 1.5 NHL seasons, 120 NHL games, or 18 calendar months.  It would do a lot to combat the silliness.

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Is Wade Redden on this list too?  Or was that some other form of shenanigans?

He was buried in the minors.

They addressed that by the rule where you could only bury a portion.

[SDS]

47 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Except Tampa has not managed the cap poorly at all.
Because they have managed it exceedingly well, they have more good players than they can afford. If they can’t trade players for cap space, what happens to RFA players like Cirelli and Sergachev? Do they just sit out?

Unless the OP is strictly talking about this. This is a better conversation.

Ottawa gave out bad contracts. Their punishment is getting quality players from a Stanley Cup champion organization. 

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, SDS said:

Ottawa gave out bad contracts. Their punishment is getting quality players from a Stanley Cup champion organization. 

Well, Ottawa didn’t even give out the Gaborik contract, but that’s neither here nor there.

I feel like the heart of the issue isn’t this trade, but rather the silliness of how LTIR itself can be used.

[bob_sauve28]

3 hours ago, Sabre fan said:

Just heard that Tampa Bay has sent D Braydon Coburn, Cedric Paquette and a 2022 second-round pick from the Tampa Bay Lightning, in exchange for Marian Gaborik and Anders Nilsson. Of oucrse both Bagorik and Nilsson are and will remain on long-term injured reserve meaning they do not count against the cap. Ottawa get two half-descent players that will help their lineup but really it is just a way Tampa Bay to shed salary. I think this kind of trade should not be allowed as it is not a hockey trade. Tampa clearly gains nothing but cap space which does not equal a hockey trade where both sides benefit on the ice where it should matter. Should this kind of trade be allowed???  

So how would you word the law that stops this? Would there be a commison to judge trades?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

How is it cheating?

Same reason why I thought the damn tank was cheating. 

If you are not playing by the rules you are cheating.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

While maybe technically within the rules, I agree with @SDS that this trade stinks and pretty clearly violates the spirit of the CBA and the cap rules.

I still say it's cheating.

[Brawndo]

The rules will probably never be changed particularly when it comes to LTIR. 
 

The NHL Owners will keep it as it provides an extra mechanism to accumulate extra cap space. And non cap teams can make moves to players and draft picks.

 

The NHLPA will never agree to changing the rules as it gives players such as Johnny Boychuk a path to “retirement” while still receiving their guaranteed money remaining on the contract. 

[klos1963]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It’s not like other teams haven’t done the same thing and I don’t remember any outcry as Hossa, Datsyuk, among others were traded for their cap hit and IR status.

Those were trades that helped both teams.  It shouldn't be outlawed. This isn't charlie finley trading off his best players for nothing in return.

[drnkirishone]

Two ways to combat ltir trading. One make it so you have to be cap compliant at the start of the season before players go on ltir. However that just changes the goalposts for how the work around gets used. Or make players unable to be traded from a team until they have returned from ltir and played a game.

I am not sure how to fix retiring to ltir.

[SDS]

9 minutes ago, drnkirishone said:

Two ways to combat ltir trading. One make it so you have to be cap compliant at the start of the season before players go on ltir. However that just changes the goalposts for how the work around gets used. Or make players unable to be traded from a team until they have returned from ltir and played a game.

I am not sure how to fix retiring to ltir.

You get one season’’s worth of LTIR relief. After that it’s back on the cap. 

[Weave]

4 hours ago, Eleven said:

 

I'm with you guys & I think the simple solution is to prohibit trading players who are on LTIR.

I'll add this to the trade rules that allow tanking that I don't particularly care for.

[Shootica]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

You get one season’’s worth of LTIR relief. After that it’s back on the cap. 

Then what do you do with a player who is signed for multiple years with a career ending injury?

I don't like the idea of teams filing to terminate the contracts of injured players, and the NHLPA would surely have a fit at that idea.

[Weave]

2 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

While maybe technically within the rules, I agree with @SDS that this trade stinks and pretty clearly violates the spirit of the CBA and the cap rules.

I still say it's cheating.

Violating the spirit of the rule is a better description than cheating.  Although violating the spirit of the rules is pretty much contained within the definition of cheating.

Upon further review, I'll allow it.

[Curt]

35 minutes ago, Shootica said:

Then what do you do with a player who is signed for multiple years with a career ending injury?

I don't like the idea of teams filing to terminate the contracts of injured players, and the NHLPA would surely have a fit at that idea.

Retire?  If you can’t play hockey anymore, shouldn’t you retire?

If you physically can’t play, how can you fulfill the terms of your contract? 

I’ll add this because someone will probably ask.  Insurance, NHL players have insurance in case of injury to protect against future earnings losses.  If you need to retire due to a chronic injury, use the insurance.

Also, being an NHL player is not guaranteed.  If you get injured, can’t play, and can’t fulfill your contract then I don’t see why you should be guaranteed to get paid anyway.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Curt

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

While maybe technically within the rules, I agree with @SDS that this trade stinks and pretty clearly violates the spirit of the CBA and the cap rules.

I still say it's cheating.

You're just mad we didn't do something like it.

[drnkirishone]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're just mad we didn't do something like it.

I can't speak for NS. But I am not simply mad that we didn't do something like it. To me it is just like the league min salaries at the tail end of decade long contracts. it is a clear way to exploit the rules to gain a benefit. At some point a team/GM will take it beyond something the league can ignore just the the contract with the Devils did.

Now don't get me wrong.... others teams are doing it so I will not hold it against the Sabres if they do it also. I just want the league to close the loophole

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, drnkirishone said:

I can't speak for NS. But I am not simply mad that we didn't do something like it. To me it is just like the league min salaries at the tail end of decade long contracts. it is a clear way to exploit the rules to gain a benefit. At some point a team/GM will take it beyond something the league can ignore just the the contract with the Devils did.

Now don't get me wrong.... others teams are doing it so I will not hold it against the Sabres if they do it also. I just want the league to close the loophole

idk why you think it's so wrong. We've talked here many times about various trades that involve dumping salary one way or the other. Didn't help us, but Pitt basically gave us Sheary for free when we took on Hunwick's salary. It's the new NHL. If you are in a rebuild and clear your cap space, you can then negotiate with teams that need to cap dump and make sweet deals for yourself.

Ottawa was a screwed up hockey team, but last year and this have shown themselves to be doing a very smart rebuild. They will be good again in no time the way they are going. We could use a little creativity around here. 

[SDS]

You could also simply make it that you can trade for any player, but the old team is responsible for the cap hit until the player plays in n the NHL again.

[Taro T]

Seems to me the issues are, player contracts are guaranteed to be paid in full (as has been negotiated by the union, good on them), so the player has an incentive to not simply walk away from money owed to him at the end of his contract.  

But the players as a whole get 50% of league wide HRR regardless of what the face value of a particular contract says he is owed (as has been negotiated by the owners, good on them), so players being on LTIR actually taxes the team that has that LTIR player paycheck and reduces the amount all other teams pay very slightly.

And though having LTIR players in the league dilutes every other players' earnings slightly, the possibility that it might save them from losing a lot of cash at the end gives them a reason to support it.

Yes, it lets the rich teams keep their teams intact to a degree, but Tampa didn't get to keep their team intact, they had to give up useful players & prospects to take actual salary off Ottawa's plate.  It's just one more tool money flush teams have available to themselves that budget teams don't have.  But it does make that budget team better & that flush team worse.  And some times those sort of budgetary moves are enough to get a marginal team into the playoffs (the Aisles the year Buffalo having their #1 being a prime example:  Bah-stan & Chicago both gave up good players for a 2nd round pick to meet cap).

The Otters are better and TB has some extra room.  Trying to fix every loophole will result in a rule about as useful as the NFL's catch rule, IMHO. 

It is what you get when you make compromises to get a system both sides can live with.  The FAR MORE egregious move was stashing Kucherov until the playoffs.  He should be required to be active some minimal amount of time in the RS to be eligible for post season play.  Do we know for certain that Kucherov will be allowed to play post season w/ no RS games in?  The Sabres activated Connolly in '07 for the last 2 games to be allowed to use him post season way back under the old CBA.

[Taro T]

14 hours ago, Curt said:

Retire?  If you can’t play hockey anymore, shouldn’t you retire?

If you physically can’t play, how can you fulfill the terms of your contract? 

I’ll add this because someone will probably ask.  Insurance, NHL players have insurance in case of injury to protect against future earnings losses.  If you need to retire due to a chronic injury, use the insurance.

Also, being an NHL player is not guaranteed.  If you get injured, can’t play, and can’t fulfill your contract then I don’t see why you should be guaranteed to get paid anyway.

To the bolded, they should get paid because that is what the players and league agreed to do.

These guys are hurt in the line of work.  They shouldn't be out on the street.  IMHO.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded, they should get paid because that is what the players and league agreed to do.

These guys are hurt in the line of work.  They shouldn't be out on the street.  IMHO.

Yeah, definitely is a collective bargaining issue.  Was just theorizing about changes.  You are probably in the right, from a moral standpoint.