Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

...but you also have to put players in position to succeed, and putting a very good goal scorer with scrub 4th lines is not utilizing Skinner correctly. 

Agree!

We've seen though that Skinner has a track record of maximizing his own abilities to a higher relative degree than other players, when paired with solid-two-way (yet offensively uninspiring) players. In actuality a highly useful skill provided by him, considering finding players who can complement the Eichel's of the world is a comparatively easy task. 

It creates a dynamic where you won't lose a lot swapping out Skinner in the top 6 for say Olofsson, but yet lose a lot switching Skinner out of the BOTTOM 6, for VO. Skinner may not be maximized personally by playing on a lower line, but I believe - if he's given capable players - the greatest net output, for the team, may be found from playing Skinner in such a position.

It's when you pair him with Lazar and Sheahan that the benefits are willingly tossed aside. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny

[DarthEbriate]

I also want to take a moment to point out that I love that we're having a fantastic hockey discussion on a Wednesday morning about our bottom 6 because we finally have six legitimate NHL-caliber top-6 players as well as young unprovens like Thompson and Cozens who could find themselves proven NHL-caliber soon. This is good. And this Wednesday morning happens to be opening day of a hockey season.

Now -- Thompson top-6? Maybe, maybe not. But he's got Eichel and Hall to carry the puck for him and he's a 1st round pick whose frame has finally filled out. Maybe with an optimistic sidedish of hope.

[dudacek]

24 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I wish I could get on board for this but I can't. 

I believe the mentality entering into this year should be that of an organization operating under the belief and confidence they have achieved the accumulation of talent necessary to, with good coaching, achieve the result we state as our goal. 

They should be operating as if they have full confidence in their plan and what is going to happen complete with already envisioning success, in specific roles, for the players they've added. 

I'm not sure you can make the playoffs with the other mindset and I don't know what will happen to this team if we have another failed season. 

Framing things as a trial inherently implies what comes *after* this season is more important than what happens *this* year, and that would be a key philosophical difference in my thinking relative to theirs, so it's not a gap I can bridge mentally. 

I guess we'll just have to see who Skinner lines up with. We parse it every day but until he's actually *with* good linemates, I'll bitch about it. 

I disagree with the bolded.

How do you explain one-year deals with Hall, Ullmark, Montour and Reinhart? We know Sam and Taylor wanted more.

22 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The tweets that went around earlier had him on the roster, not the taxi squad.  Has that been changed?  

Either way, he's not dressing tomorrow night.

You are correct, he's on the roster.

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

Let me remind everyone that

 

Skinner - Johansson - Sobotka

 

was a very productive second line last year, until Sobotka got injured. Good enough to get us to #1 in the standings for a bit.

Johansson is significantly better than Sheahan or Lazar. Which is why there needs to be a Cozens on the line.

Rob Ray indirectly had a very relevant point on Skinner: The Sabres best players don't want to play with Skinner because he doesn't get them the puck and he doesn't do what they want them to do. Guys like Derek Ryan (or Curtis Lazar?) are more content with just doing their thing and let Jeff do his.

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Let me remind everyone that

 

Skinner - Johansson - Sobotka

 

was a very productive second line last year, until Sobotka got injured. Good enough to get us to #1 in the standings for a bit.

 

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

That line stopped being productive when October ended, not when Sobotka's season ended a week or so later.

It's a good point though - it shows you don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate Skinner, either. Simply pairing him with one offensive player may be enough. Johansson didn't remain that player, but he had a really nice start. 

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I disagree with the bolded.

How do you explain one-year deals with Hall, Ullmark, Montour and Reinhart? We know Sam and Taylor wanted more.

You are correct, he's on the roster.

Johansson is significantly better than Sheahan or Lazar. Which is why there needs to be a Cozens on the line.

Rob Ray indirectly had a very relevant point on Skinner: The Sabres best players don't want to play with Skinner because he doesn't get them the puck and he doesn't do what they want them to do. Guys like Derek Ryan (or Curtis Lazar?) are more content with just doing their thing and let Jeff do his.

Wouldn't one year deals fit right in line with the idea of a trial?

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

Wouldn't one year deals fit right in line with the idea of a trial?

Yes. If you don't think there's an element of trial to this season, why were they given one-year deals?

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Yes. If you don't think there's an element of trial to this season, why were they given one-year deals?

My stance that the season should NOT be a trial is much firmer than me belief in the fact it is not. 

Again, that's ME beliefs. Only meen. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny
funny spelling

[GASabresIUFAN]

26 minutes ago, Curt said:

Coaches watch them day in day out.  I guess they thought he didn’t look ready enough.  I’m sure coaches have certain things they look for to determine this.

I have seen no definitive  evidence that Krueger wont put Cozens, for example, on a line with Skinner.  I’m good with a rugged vet in the other spot. In fact I think it may be necessary.  I would be terrified to ice a Skinner-Mitts-Cozens line.

Im not so down on the marginal vets as you.  If they can play decent defense and put up 20+ points, that’s ok for the bottom couple guys in the lineup.

Here is the problem.  They can't and won't put up 20 pts. That's why they are marginal vets.

Lazar's best NHL season was 2015-16 where he added 20 pts.  Last season he started hot with 8 points in 18 games, then only scored 2 in the next 20.  

Rieder's last two seasons were 11 pts and 10 pts respectively.  Sheahan's were 19 and 15.  Eakin had 15 pts last year and has seen his pt fall from 17 minutes to 14 minutes over the last few years.  KO has lost all his PP time and added 19 pts for us (down from 44 to 29 to 19) and we were thrilled to get it.  

These are marginal vets in the NHL and we are likely starting all 5.  it's just stupid.  Play Eakin, KO and Rieder to get the checking line and toss the other two on the taxi squad where they belong.

RK has zero idea on how to coach offense and make the most of his forwards.  To put out two lines that can't score every night is incompetent especially when you have talented opinions.

Lets face facts.  With the marginal goaltending, the black hole bottom 6 and the toughest division in hockey, the Sabres aren't making the playoffs unless the top 6 completely dominate, the special teams improve dramatically and the other teams in the division are beset with major injuries.  It's possible all these things happen, but unlikely.  I'm sorry but giving the kids 10 minutes a night to try to boost the offense seems like a very reasonable risk to take instead of 2 lines of marginal NHLers who add nothing.

Edited January 13, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[erickompositör72]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I disagree with the bolded.

How do you explain one-year deals with Hall, Ullmark, Montour and Reinhart? We know Sam and Taylor wanted more.

You are correct, he's on the roster.

Johansson is significantly better than Sheahan or Lazar. Which is why there needs to be a Cozens on the line.

Rob Ray indirectly had a very relevant point on Skinner: The Sabres best players don't want to play with Skinner because he doesn't get them the puck and he doesn't do what they want them to do. Guys like Derek Ryan (or Curtis Lazar?) are more content with just doing their thing and let Jeff do his.

To the bolded: true, but we need that line to be a good 3rd line, not a good 2nd line

Edited January 13, 2021 by erickompositör72

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

It's a good point though - it shows you don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate Skinner, either. Simply pairing him with one offensive player may be enough. Johansson didn't remain that player, but he had a really nice start. 

Wouldn't one year deals fit right in line with the idea of a trial?

And my expectation is he'll have that 1 in Cozens tomorrow night and if he & Dylan don't totally abandon Lazar in their own end they'll see Mittelstadt, Asplund, or Quinn get a chance to replace Curtis in fairly short order.  Eakin might end up there as well as the checking line gets reshuffled.

And if they do abandon Lazar, Quinn & Mitts will get cracks at Cozens spot.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Taro T

[Thorner]

If Cozens scores 27 points, we make the playoffs. 

If Skinner scores 15 from the bottom 6, we make the playoffs. 

If Hutton plays as well as Ullmark, and Ullmark is last year's version or better, we make the playoffs. 

If Eakin is a net-neutral to Larsson, we make the playoffs. 

Don't ask me for the odds @DarthEbriate

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And my expectation is he'll have that 1 in Cozens tomorrow night and if he & Mulan don't totally abandon Lazar in their own end they'll see Mittelstadt, Asplund, or Quinn get a chance to replace Curtis.  Eakin might end up there as well as the checking line gets reshuffled.

Let's get down to business. 

Edit - Gah, another already poor joke ruined with Taro's edit. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Here is the problem.  They can't and won't put up 20 pts. That's why they are marginal vets.

Lazar's best NHL season was 2015-16 where he added 20 pts.  Last season he started hot with 8 points in 18 games, then only scored 2 in the next 20.  

Rieder's last two seasons were 11 pts and 10 pts respectively.  Sheahan's were 19 and 15.  Eakin had 15 pts last year and has seen his pt fall from 17 minutes to 14 minutes over the last few years.  KO has lost all his PP time and added 19 pts for us (down from 44 to 29 to 19) and we were thrilled to get it.  

These are margin vets in the NHL and we are likely starting all 5.  it's just stupid.

RK has zero idea on how to coach offense and make the most of his forwards.  To put out two lines that can't score every night is incompetent especially when you have talented opinions.

Lets face facts.  With the marginal goaltending, the black hole bottom 6 and the toughest division in hockey, the Sabres aren't making the playoffs unless the top 6 completely dominate, the special teams improve dramatically and the other teams in the division are beset with major injuries.  It's possible all these things happen, but unlikely.  I'm sorry but giving the kids 10 minutes a night to try to boost the offense seems like a very reasonable risk to take instead of 2 lines of marginal NHLers who add nothing.

I think that Rieder, Eakin, Lazar and Sheahan are probably capable bottom-six NHLers. I agree that their ability to put up more than 20 points is questionable and that I'd rather have two of them in the lineup than four.

I think it is important to point out that last year the Sabres put out three lines that couldn't score, and that the guys you are bashing are more likely to help us win hockey games than ERod, Sheary or Frolik would.

Finally, I really, really want to see the Eichel and Staal lines put up eight on the Capitals this weekend in 6-4 and 4-3 OT victories and immediately prove the bolded wrong. And I know that's what you want too.

Edited January 13, 2021 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

I think that Rieder, Eakin, Lazar and Sheahan are probably capable bottom-six NHLers. I agree that their ability to put up more than 20 points is questionable and that I'd rather have two of them in the lineup than four.

I think it is important to point out that last year the Sabres put out three lines that couldn't score, and that the guys you are bashing are more likely to help us when hockey games than ERod, Sheary or Frolik would.

Finally, I really, really want to see the Eichel and Staal lines put up eight on the Capitals this weekend in 6-4 and 4-3 OT victories and immediately prove the bolded wrong. And I know that's what you want too.

I agree that 2 (Eakin and Rieder) of the 4 should be in the lineup, but that's it.  I also agree that we have 3 inept lines last year.  You do realize that playing only two of these marginal guys means that their slots have to go to two kids (unless a trade is made).

That said, you, me or anyone else on this board could put the 1st two lines together with our eyes closed and two hands tied behind our backs.  The talent alone dictated that they belonged together.  When they succeed it won't be a reflection on RK, but on KA for getting Hall and Staal here for this season.  Also if they give up around 4 goals a night, it probably means that the goaltending, that KA was supposed to upgrade but didn't, isn't off to a good start and or that the PK, he tried to upgrade, also isn't off to a good start.

 

[CallawaySabres]

I think Skinner and his contract are going to absolutely crush this team. There has to be SOMEONE out there that will roll the dice on him no?

[Ogelthorpe]

So Hughes, Power, or Clarke with the 1st overall pick?

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Ogelthorpe said:

So Hughes, Power, or Clarke with the 1st overall pick?

There's ANOTHER Hughes brother coming up?  Sheesh, didn't their parents own a TV?

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

If Okposo plays, he will be skating w/ Reider & Eakin.  That line is set.

Cozens skated there today because he'll be Okposo's fill in should Kyle be unable to go & ttbomk he hadn't skated w/ that line yet.  Best to at least let him start to get a feel for how they play rather than throw him in cold if circumstances dictate it.

Presuming Cozens working w/ the 2nd PP was not simply because Kyle was getting eased at practice, then he's in the lineup & he'll be with Skinner.  In the offensive end & in the neutral zone, it doesn't matter whether he's W or C, except for the faceoff they're interchangeable.  We don't want Cozens at C in his very 1st game, especially when a defensively challenged Skinner would be 1 of his wingers.

Though my expectation is Mittelstadt will be fine, my major issue w/ his development is they've thrown him to the wolves when he should've been sheltered.  Giving him Jeff and a rook in his 1st ever game is more of the same.  If Skinner & Cozens are responsible in their own end, sure, give Casey a crack on that line.  If not, either leave that line alone or swap Casey in for Cozens at some point & slide Lazar into Ott's old role - W that wins faceoffs.

 

I do hope this is something we see gain traction soon. We really need to see Cozens find a home at C, for the long term prospects of this franchise. 

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said:

So Hughes, Power, or Clarke with the 1st overall pick?

Really not looking forward to a "trade the pick!" / "We'll get a really good player at 8 no matter who we pick" discussion. 

Hope not. Taking "really good players" at 8 (or higher) for the last 8 years hasn't exactly served us well in the standings. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

 

Rob Ray indirectly had a very relevant point on Skinner: The Sabres best players don't want to play with Skinner because he doesn't get them the puck and he doesn't do what they want them to do. Guys like Derek Ryan (or Curtis Lazar?) are more content with just doing their thing and let Jeff do his.

Rob Ray on WGR's Instigator Show directly said that in the scrimmages he witnessed Skinner was not very impressive. There simply was a lack of urgency in his play. This is a guy who struggled last year so he should have come into camp motivated to show that he was worthy of being a more prominent player. Many people blame the coach for the way he handled the player as the cause of his deterioration in play. Based on what people have observed  in this training camp it's more clear to me that the onus is on the player for his demotion.  

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

That said, you, me or anyone else on this board could put the 1st two lines together with our eyes closed and two hands tied behind our backs.  The talent alone dictated that they belonged together.  When they succeed it won't be a reflection on RK, but on KA for getting Hall and Staal here for this season.  Also if they give up around 4 goals a night, it probably means that the goaltending, that KA was supposed to upgrade but didn't, isn't off to a good start and or that the PK, he tried to upgrade, also isn't off to a good start.

 

No, you can't have it both ways.

It is as much Ralph's choice to stock the top six the way he has as it is to stock the bottom the way he has.

And for all the intensity of your argument it basically comes down to Ralph choosing to play two plumbers with Skinner instead of one — something we have yet to see happen at all, let alone be sustained over an extended period of failure.

[Thorner]

 

 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

 

And, though there are people that are down on him, the leadership is a reason McCabe finds himself on what hopefully ends up the 2nd pairing.

Expected Okposo wouldn't lose his letter, but was hoping somehow Hall would take it.  Would be a good omen for getting him re-signed.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And, though there are people that are down on him, the leadership is a reason McCabe finds himself on what hopefully ends up the 2nd pairing.

Expected Okposo wouldn't lose his letter, but was hoping somehow Hall would take it.  Would be a good omen for getting him re-signed.

I'd rather Sam or Dahlin than Hall. But Hall would have been cool. 

Ya, McCabe has been touted as a leader since the WJC. 

[Derrico]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I'd rather Sam or Dahlin than Hall. But Hall would have been cool. 

Ya, McCabe has been touted as a leader since the WJC. 

Yep, captain on that wjc team I believe.  Same as others, wish Okposo would give it to Hall.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Yep, captain on that wjc team I believe.  Same as others, wish Okposo would give it to Hall.

Did the coaches choose or the players.  Would be rude for Okposo to say no if his teammates decided he should have the letter.  (Tweet didn't say who made the decisions.)

[Curt]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Here is the problem.  They can't and won't put up 20 pts. That's why they are marginal vets.

Lazar's best NHL season was 2015-16 where he added 20 pts.  Last season he started hot with 8 points in 18 games, then only scored 2 in the next 20.  

Rieder's last two seasons were 11 pts and 10 pts respectively.  Sheahan's were 19 and 15.  Eakin had 15 pts last year and has seen his pt fall from 17 minutes to 14 minutes over the last few years.  KO has lost all his PP time and added 19 pts for us (down from 44 to 29 to 19) and we were thrilled to get it.  

These are marginal vets in the NHL and we are likely starting all 5.  it's just stupid.  Play Eakin, KO and Rieder to get the checking line and toss the other two on the taxi squad where they belong.

RK has zero idea on how to coach offense and make the most of his forwards.  To put out two lines that can't score every night is incompetent especially when you have talented opinions.

Lets face facts.  With the marginal goaltending, the black hole bottom 6 and the toughest division in hockey, the Sabres aren't making the playoffs unless the top 6 completely dominate, the special teams improve dramatically and the other teams in the division are beset with major injuries.  It's possible all these things happen, but unlikely.  I'm sorry but giving the kids 10 minutes a night to try to boost the offense seems like a very reasonable risk to take instead of 2 lines of marginal NHLers who add nothing.

This is bizarre.  They can’t and won’t?  

Some of those guys absolutely can and have produced at a rate of over 20 points per season.  Here are their 82 game scoring rates over the past two seasons.

Eakin- 25, 43  
Sheahan- 19, 19  
Okposo- 30, 30  
Lazar- 22, 15  
Reider- 15, 13

So, Okposo and Eakin consistently produce over that rate.  Sheahan is right there, just below.  Lazar, maybe/maybe not, personally I think he has a little upside (just a little) but that’s just me.  Reider has simply not produced offense the past coupe seasons.

Also, I personally don’t think all 5 of those guys will be in the lineup very often.  However, I think a big part of our disagreement on this is based in our degrees of certainty about what the lineup will be.  You seem to be assuming that Skinner will be stuck with Sheahan and Lazar the majority of the time and that all 5 of those guys will be in the lineup most of the time.  I think Cozens is going to play.  I’ll also be upset if Skinner-Sheahan-Lazar is a thing that happens more than a few games.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Curt