Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, WildCard said:

This team is a dumpster fire. I've never felt less confident about them or the trajectory we're on.

For my part, my agitation comes from the fact that, short of a few hairbrained decisions, I think we actually have the pieces to make some noise. For a long time I've seen "missed opportunity" as the potential downfall of this season, rather than outright poor performance. 

That's not to say we'll miss anything for sure, just the worry rather than "oh, we are going to be bad". Just my view though. 

[dudacek]

Just now, WildCard said:

Hardly a massive amount of negativity, I already said I'll root for them and enjoy the season. They're just uninspiring and I have no faith in them. What have they done in the last decade, last year, or last months, to change that feeling?

For me:

• Added a coach who seems to care about culture and players want to play for
• Developed Jack Eichel into one the league's elite players
• Fired Jason Botterill, a terrible GM
• Traded for Eric Staal to fix their biggest roster issue without sacrificing any piece of their future
• Signed Taylor Hall, the best offensive free agent available without sacrificing any piece of their future
• Developed Victor Olofsson and Henri Jokiharju and shown signs that the same may be coming for Tage Thompson, Dylan Cozens and Rasmus Dahlin

None of these things may equal wins, and they are mitigated by other issues created and left unaddressed, but they are things that give me hope.

 

[WildCard]

Just now, DarthEbriate said:

For the Bills it's apples/oranges. The Bills have had the same GM/coach combo for over 3 years now, which the Sabres haven't done in quite some time. It's a lot quicker to turnaround an NFL roster where the cap hits can be pushed out, the draft is entirely of 21+ year-olds who are essentially ready to compete for the roster, and the guaranteed money doesn't float around with the player forever.

Beane and McDermott came in and IMMEDIATELY overhauled that roster. Dumped old/bad contracts, got rid of players that didn't fit the culture, started building well through FA pickups like Hyde and Poyer, drafting late round guys like Milano, and still broke the drought. I don't think it's quicker to turn around a roster, especially in this comparison. What did McDermott and Beane inherit that's still here? The only 4 players I can think of that were on the roster their first season was White (they drafted), Hyde and Poyer they brought in, and Dawkins. Krueger and Adams inherited freaking Eichel and Dahlin. They shouldn't take seasons to do this; in a league where over HALF the league makes the freaking playoffs, it simply cannot be this hard.

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There is a ton of truth in this.

The Sabres have basically made a ton of short-term bets while keeping their options open for next year.

Personally, I think it was a smart call given the nature of the season and the condition of the fanbase, but if we don't take a real step forward, there is a huge possibility that next year will be a step back.

Come on everyone! Second verse is the same as the first! 

Edited January 13, 2021 by LGR4GM

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

For me:

• Added a coach who seems to care about culture and players want to play for
• Developed Jack Eichel into one the league's elite players
• Fired Jason Botterill, a terrible GM
• Traded for Eric Staal to fix their biggest roster issue without sacrificing any piece of their future
• Signed Taylor Hall, the best offensive free agent available without sacrificing any piece of their future
• Developed Victor Olofsson and Henri Jokiharju and shown signs that the same may be coming for Tage Thompson, Dylan Cozens and Rasmus Dahlin

None of these things may equal wins, and they are mitigated by other issues created and left unaddressed, but they are things that give me hope.

Fair points, and when I read them I feel optimistic again, about Krueger at least. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

My take on where we appear to be headed:

• The first line has the potential to be the best line since 16/89 were working their magic (hopefully with Thompson in the Andreychuk role)
• The 2nd line moves the puck very well, is very smart, and can finish. It could be very good and is the best 2nd line we've seen since the slug era
• The Eakin line's success revolves around Eakin's performance. We know Okposo and Girgensons play that role well and I think Rieder will be a pleasant surprise. Eakin needs to be what Adams and Ralph seem to think he is to make it a viable 2-way 3rd line.
• I am intrigued by the possibility of Skinner and Cozens playing against 3rd pairs, even with Sheahan/Lazar as basically a safety valve. But that means we need Cozens to be effective. I can't see Skinner and two plumbers being effective at either end of the ice.
• The top four is as it should be, with the idea of the 1st two pairs getting equal time to start and Dahlin/Montour evolving into the first pair as Dahlin steps into his own. Those two need to be with Jack and Taylor as much as possible.
• Miller and Joki is a good 3rd pair if Miller adapts to his off-side.
• Both goalies need to take a step from last year.
• Sheahan, Asplund, Mitts, Irwin, Borgen seem like viable choices as spares
• The PP should be deadly. If it's not, I will blame the coaches.
• The PK has to be better. Rieder, Sheahan and Eakin have good track records here. They have not addressed the D though and that is concerning.

Lots of reasons and to be concerned and lots of reasons for optimism. This is a better team on paper than last year's and a better one than we've had for some time.

I don't know if excited is the right word, but I am very intrigued to see if it can somehow all come together.

True, good post, but it also means we need Krueger to be willing to give Skinner Cozens, and not 2 plugs. 

56 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t think so.  He was pretty good in NCAA.  Some NHL team was likely to sign him.  He is probably just an AHL guy though.

This is what I mean.

Did you think they would go from missing playoffs to cup winner in one offseason?  This is a possible playoff team.

And therein lies the only barometer to ultimately judge the season by. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny

[Radar]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

Fair points, and when I read them I feel optimistic again, about Krueger at least. 

I do like Krueger. If there's a problem with Skinner, and I hope there's not, it's the player not the coach in my opinion.

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 minutes ago, Curt said:

I think the ideal for me is somewhere in between.  Skinner-Sheahan-Cozens maybe?  It’s nice that people said nice things about Mitt’s half season in the A, but I will not trust him to be the defensive conscience of a line until I see it in the NHL for an extended period.  Lots of players are good in the AHL then come up and suck.

Dumpster fire is what?  A medium amount of negativity?  Lol

 

7 minutes ago, freester said:

Well GAIU,  I'm sensing a bit of negativity.  Unfortunately, Mitts,  R2, Quinn and Cozens all need more time to develop.  They could all use a full year in Rochester.  Botteril rushed Mitts to the Sabres way before he was ready and the consequences were dire.  Losing Kahun was a critical error by KA and not improving the goaltending.  I am optimistic we will be improved but RK must figure out a way to get some production out of Skinner.

How can we find out if someone is ready for the NHL if we don't play them in the NHL?  After-all I'm not asking Mitts or Cozens to step in and play 2nd line minutes.  Since RK has sent Skinner to 4th purgatory, this is actually the perfect opportunity to create a skill line around him give them 10-12 minutes a night and see what they can do.  Low risk, hi reward.  If they aren't ready, we can always bring in the marginal vets.  Instead RK wants marginal vets in the lineup that we know won't produce.  How does that make sense?

[Thorner]

40 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

The lineup is certainly improved.   Goaltending is still a question mark.

Unfortunately, they're in the toughest division and will probably be out of playoff contention in as soon as 2-3 weeks time.  

I look at this as a season of growth (playing top teams) and figuring out who will be part of the long term solution.  They have 12 players on expiring contracts, only 2 D under contract after this season...  It's basically a season long tryout for more than half the roster.

 

[Thorner]

43 minutes ago, WildCard said:

If Hall re-signs we're screwed; it will be a long term contract on an old and hurt winger. If it's not I'll throw a parade.

It's just the opposite of watching the Bills, who had a plan and slowly but surely made smart moves, smart draft picks, and changed a culture. This all just looks like a jumbled, uncoordinated mess with no clear theme or plan. 

I understand the frustration but you really think that, re: Hall? 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I'm holding out hope they mesh in such a way we have a dynamic duo for years. I'm not too worried about the end of Hall's deal, should he sign one, because Jack would be out of his prime by then anyways - the time to go for it is now: Jack is in his prime and represents the best shot we have at a cup for the foreseeable future. We need to build around him and take our chances. 

I think it's reasonably likely we lose both if we lose Hall. 

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You seem to be more upset about R2 than the situation warrants.

He was always a longshot to make the team this year, he didn't do anything special in camp, and if he shines in Rochester he'll be back up.

 

There is a ton of truth in this.

The Sabres have basically made a ton of short-term bets while keeping their options open for next year.

Personally, I think it was a smart call given the nature of the season and the condition of the fanbase, but if we don't take a real step forward, there is a huge possibility that next year will be a step back.

If the strategy is a tryout, I'm sorry, @WildCardis right to be this down. 

I don't think that's the case. I refuse to believe it lol

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny
Edit - To add, I agree Ruots was a long shot entering into cap, the discrepancy for some lies in the fact we don't think he should have been. His upside warrants first crack, to me, when the competition is players I'd bet he's better than.

[WildCard]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I understand the frustration but you really think that, re: Hall? 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I'm holding out hope they mesh in such a way we have a dynamic duo for years. I'm not too worried about the end of Hall's deal, should he sign one, because Jack would be out of his prime by then anyways - the time to go for it is now: Jack is in his prime and represents the best shot we have at a cup for the foreseeable future. We need to build around him and take our chances. 

I think it's reasonably likely we lose both if we lose Hall. 

If we didn't already have an expensive, ageing winger in Skinner than sure. But soon we'll have to pay Dahlin, and the cap is going down...we're not going to have any money left to fill out a good bottom 6, and with the cupboard bare Hall's contract dissuades me. I'd rather have 2-3 good players than 1 Hall right now.

[erickompositör72]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

If we didn't already have an expensive, ageing winger in Skinner than sure. But soon we'll have to pay Dahlin, and the cap is going down...we're not going to have any money left to fill out a good bottom 6, and with the cupboard bare Hall's contract dissuades me. I'd rather have 2-3 good players than 1 Hall right now.

Maybe Eichel/Hall work something out where Hall signs a team-friendly contract and Eichel picks up all the dinner tabs

[pi2000]

28 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't mean a look see here and there.  I'm mean the starting jobs over Lazar and Sheahan specifically.  What is better for the team long-term?  Skinner Lazar Sheahan or Skinner Mitts Cozens?  My guess is the second version is also better this season.  Those guys at least have the skill to get something out of Skinner and Cozens is already a 200ft players and Mitts made great strides in the A in becoming a decent 200 ft player.  

I'd argue Lazar and Sheahan have outplayed Mitts and R2 thus far in camp.    They are more complete players.   I didn't see anything from Mitts in the scrimmages to suggest he's taken a significant step.   

The captain wants to win now, they bring in Hall and Staal on 1 year deals, they're going to put their best foot forward... it's not a year (at least not yet) to experiment and play guys just so they can be evaluated or get experience.     

That said, in 2 or 3 weeks it may become evident that this team won't be sniffing the playoffs.    If that's the case, then I expect to see guys like Mitts and R2 getting extended looks... but until that happens, they're going to play who they believe give them their best chance to win right now... and who knows, maybe Ullmark gets hot right out of the gate and they find some early season success.

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, WildCard said:

If we didn't already have an expensive, ageing winger in Skinner than sure. But soon we'll have to pay Dahlin, and the cap is going down...we're not going to have any money left to fill out a good bottom 6, and with the cupboard bare Hall's contract dissuades me. I'd rather have 2-3 good players than 1 Hall right now.

They are going to have to find a way to keep Hall if he performs well here and we have success, though. Up to and including finding a way to get Skinner to Seattle/moving other pieces. 

The scenario we'd wish to avoid by balking at signing him would be created through a self-fulfilling prophecy should we decline to keep him after having success. A) the chances of replacing a player of that talent adequately is ridiculously low, and B) I shudder to think what Jack will say

We can fill out the bottom 6 with cheap youth if KA can draft and RK will actually trust the Ruotsalainen's of the world. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Thorny

[JimS]

On 1/11/2021 at 10:12 PM, Thorny said:

Well no we can definitely admit it went down as the season went on, but we do know that's when the line mates begin to factor in more prominently. His numbers did look good with Larsson after October, for one. 

Eye-test wise, I honestly do remember him getting in for chances last year and just failing to convert a lot. That's where the bad luck factors in - we know he has to ability to finish. His TOI was 14th on the team, so I'm firm on the belief, with that expected goals, and what we've see him do in the past, he should have been getting more than that, and that's BEFORE we factor in what a quality centre might bump that up to. 

This isn't to totally absolve Skinner. You actually have to do the converting, I get that. I'm just betting on a statistical regression to the mean, and my knowledge that Skinner can score goals, before I buy the idea he shouldn't be getting a fair shake at it. 

Yes, I think being teamed with Lazar and Sheahan is not a fair shake. 

No, really?

Yes. My guess, and this is just my feeling, he knew him previously and thought his PK/defensive skills would help immediately. 
(sorry, I didn't quote this properly)

Edited January 13, 2021 by JimS

[pi2000]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

How can we find out if someone is ready for the NHL if we don't play them in the NHL?  After-all I'm not asking Mitts or Cozens to step in and play 2nd line minutes.  Since RK has sent Skinner to 4th purgatory, this is actually the perfect opportunity to create a skill line around him give them 10-12 minutes a night and see what they can do.  Low risk, hi reward.  If they aren't ready, we can always bring in the marginal vets.  Instead RK wants marginal vets in the lineup that we know won't produce.  How does that make sense?

Hockey is more than getting points and producing offense.     The concern with icing a defensively challenged yet offensively skilled 4th line should be obvious.

[DarthEbriate]

11 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Beane and McDermott came in and IMMEDIATELY overhauled that roster. Dumped old/bad contracts, got rid of players that didn't fit the culture, started building well through FA pickups like Hyde and Poyer, drafting late round guys like Milano, and still broke the drought. I don't think it's quicker to turn around a roster, especially in this comparison. What did McDermott and Beane inherit that's still here? The only 4 players I can think of that were on the roster their first season was White (they drafted), Hyde and Poyer they brought in, and Dawkins. Krueger and Adams inherited freaking Eichel and Dahlin. They shouldn't take seasons to do this; in a league where over HALF the league makes the freaking playoffs, it simply cannot be this hard.

Absolutely, but the NFL is designed for a team to be able to do just that. I watched Schneider arrive in Seattle 10 years ago and completely flip the roster in two seasons. They gutted everyone, wished some old-timers farewell, and were done with it and have competed ever since... (since they found the QB to go with it). But the NFL has guaranteed money, not guaranteed contracts. They can cut veterans with only a short-term impact the following season. They have longer rookie deals where the player is already contributing to the team. They have no farm system where you're tied to prospects. The league is made for flips. You can flip an NHL team over, but it takes a year or two longer --- unless you're trying to blow up an already good roster, that's easy. But we'd stripped down to the studs and the valuable parts were deemed untradeable and the other parts were really not worth the return to move out (Moulson or Bogosian, and now Skinner's 9M as examples).

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I understand the frustration but you really think that, re: Hall? 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I'm holding out hope they mesh in such a way we have a dynamic duo for years. I'm not too worried about the end of Hall's deal, should he sign one, because Jack would be out of his prime by then anyways - the time to go for it is now: Jack is in his prime and represents the best shot we have at a cup for the foreseeable future. We need to build around him and take our chances. 

I think it's reasonably likely we lose both if we lose Hall. 

If the strategy is a tryout, I'm sorry, @WildCardis right to be this down. 

I don't think that's the case. I refuse to believe it lol

Maybe tryout is the wrong word, but I think the strategy has to be looked out as a trial of some sort, given all the short-term deals.

I can't see any other way to regard it.

If it all works, Adams will likely try to keep it together and if it doesn't he will try to keep the parts he wants and walk away from others.

[Thorner]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

For me:

• Added a coach who seems to care about culture and players want to play for
• Developed Jack Eichel into one the league's elite players
• Fired Jason Botterill, a terrible GM
• Traded for Eric Staal to fix their biggest roster issue without sacrificing any piece of their future
• Signed Taylor Hall, the best offensive free agent available without sacrificing any piece of their future
• Developed Victor Olofsson and Henri Jokiharju and shown signs that the same may be coming for Tage Thompson, Dylan Cozens and Rasmus Dahlin

None of these things may equal wins, and they are mitigated by other issues created and left unaddressed, but they are things that give me hope.

 

I can draw hope from the fact Botts isn't here because he was terrible, but TBH some of the good-will there is mitigated because, from all reports, the franchise was intending to keep the guy until he refused to cooperate with the budget cuts. 

Also, they've hampered Jack more than helped. Agree with the rest for the most part, though culture is BS imo but I know we differ there. 

24 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Come on everyone! Second verse is the same as the first! 

This, it would be truly terrifying

[Taro T]

36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

These are...not good B6 lines. Apparently Lazar is good to go for tomorrow and KO is a maybe, so I guess KO would go in for Cozens or Asplund. I'm assuming Asplund. 

That is not a good set up for Skinner or Cozens, IMO. 

If Okposo plays, he will be skating w/ Reider & Eakin.  That line is set.

Cozens skated there today because he'll be Okposo's fill in should Kyle be unable to go & ttbomk he hadn't skated w/ that line yet.  Best to at least let him start to get a feel for how they play rather than throw him in cold if circumstances dictate it.

Presuming Cozens working w/ the 2nd PP was not simply because Kyle was getting eased at practice, then he's in the lineup & he'll be with Skinner.  In the offensive end & in the neutral zone, it doesn't matter whether he's W or C, except for the faceoff they're interchangeable.  We don't want Cozens at C in his very 1st game, especially when a defensively challenged Skinner would be 1 of his wingers.

Though my expectation is Mittelstadt will be fine, my major issue w/ his development is they've thrown him to the wolves when he should've been sheltered.  Giving him Jeff and a rook in his 1st ever game is more of the same.  If Skinner & Cozens are responsible in their own end, sure, give Casey a crack on that line.  If not, either leave that line alone or swap Casey in for Cozens at some point & slide Lazar into Ott's old role - W that wins faceoffs.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Taro T

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Hockey is more than getting points and producing offense.     The concern with icing a defensively challenged yet offensively skilled 4th line should be obvious.

It's about taking advantage of matchups. 

We have the best top 6 we've had in years and we aren't even going to ice a B6 that has a chance to take advantage of those cushy matchups. The growth is right there for the taking and I fear they will slow play it being far too conservative. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Hockey is more than getting points and producing offense.     The concern with icing a defensively challenged yet offensively skilled 4th line should be obvious.

Can't win if you can't score.  This rigid coach has taken one of the best 5 on 5 scorers in the NHL and placed him in a position to fail.  Not smart.  A good coach would use that line I've suggested when the matchups favor the line and to minimize any defensive issues. Also Cozens has shown so far that he is defensively responsible and according to both Taylor and RK, Mitts is substantially improved in that area.  Cozens and probably Mitts are the future of this team and Lazar and Sheahan are placeholders until better players come along.  I think those players are already here.  Sadly RK is very rigid and likely not capable of utilizing them in a way that maximizes their benefit to the team.

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I can draw hope from the fact Botts isn't here because he was terrible, but TBH some of the good-will there is mitigated because, from all reports, the franchise was intending to keep the guy until he refused to cooperate with the budget cuts. 

Also, they've hampered Jack more than helped. Agree with the rest for the most part, though culture is BS imo but I know we differ there. 

This, it would be truly terrifying

Sometimes I think we debate stuff we actually agree on because we read different things into the same words.

I firmly believe that any organization benefits from a manager with reasonable, clearly articulated expectations who practices what he preaches and is easy to respect and follow.

Edited January 13, 2021 by dudacek

[Huckleberry]

Might have missed it, but what did we do with Quinn ? 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

Might have missed it, but what did we do with Quinn ? 

He's starting on the taxi squad