Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Johansson was playing really well at that point, though. It shows you what Skinner can do with a capable C. For all the ragging I, and others did on Sobotka, that also speaks to the value a grinder type player can have with Skinner. Johansson got hurt, and his linemates proceeded to go down the toilet. It doesn't surprise me the number dipped as the season went on. Goal scorers can be streaky, at the end of the day, his number was higher over the full season than anyone else on the team. 

I think he can play with 1 on his line, but it can't be 2. 

Really don't expect he'd be totally on an island if he had Okposo & Eakin or a kid that earns ice time in place of Eakin.  And really do believe that if Thompson or one of the other kids can mesh with a top 2 line, the Sabres could be better off w/ Skinner in the bottom 6 because Skinner can create on his own but none of the kids are likely ready to do th a t.

But, yeah, giving him Lazar & Sheahan is being a bit punative.

[Andrew Amerk]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Apparently goals per 60 at ES doesn’t matter for a team that has struggled to score goals.  That makes sense. 

It’s the Sabres that we are talking about. Things aren’t supposed to make sense. 

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Really don't expect he'd be totally on an island if he had Okposo & Eakin or a kid that earns ice time in place of Eakin.  And really do believe that if Thompson or one of the other kids can mesh with a top 2 line, the Sabres could be better off w/ Skinner in the bottom 6 because Skinner can create on his own but none of the kids are likely ready to do th a t.

But, yeah, giving him Lazar & Sheahan is being a bit punative.

Right, I am totally on board with him being on a lower line, I mentioned in the offseason I could see Reinhart in that role. And I agree that Eakin could maybe work. 

The bold is the big thing. These are not the guys we want him with in the lower 6. 

Though tbh I don' think Eakin AND KO would get it done. If it's going to be Eakin, I'd prefer the other winger to have a little more offensive jam. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Apparently goals per 60 at ES doesn’t matter for a team that has struggled to score goals.  That makes sense. 

Or maybe it does matter.  After October, his #'s were down in Vesey territory.

[Thorner]

Just now, Taro T said:

Or maybe it does matter.  After October, his #'s were down in Vesey territory.

Without knowing his actual ES time on ice we can't really say that. 

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

Right, I am totally on board with him being on a lower line, I mentioned in the offseason I could see Reinhart in that role. And I agree that Eakin could maybe work. 

The bold is the big thing. These are not the guys we want him with in the lower 6. 

We both were thinking it might make sense to slide Reinhart into that 3rd line driver role.  

That said, am still expecting that the bottom 6 is a work in progress and that Thompson spending 3 days on Eichel's flank doesn't necessarily lock him into that role.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Really don't expect he'd be totally on an island if he had Okposo & Eakin or a kid that earns ice time in place of Eakin.  And really do believe that if Thompson or one of the other kids can mesh with a top 2 line, the Sabres could be better off w/ Skinner in the bottom 6 because Skinner can create on his own but none of the kids are likely ready to do th a t.

But, yeah, giving him Lazar & Sheahan is being a bit punative.

Yeah think?  The funny thing is I don’t mind Skinner on the 3rd line but with decent players.  He actually is a matchup nightmare for most opponents’ 3rd lines.  However RK approach creates a line of Lazar, Sheahan and Skinner, which lacks a playmaker to distribute the puck.

[Thorner]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yeah think?  The funny thing is I don’t mind Skinner on the 3rd line but with decent players.  He actually is a matchup nightmare for most opponents’ 3rd lines.  However RK approach creates a line of Lazar, Sheahan and Skinner, which lacks a playmaker to distribute the puck.

Switching in Ruotsalainen or Cozens for Lazar would probably do the trick, Sheahan in the digging pucks out of corners role. 

Eakin is sorta the go to if the two above really aren't ready. I don't think that's the case, but at that point yes you go to Eakin. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Without knowing his actual ES time on ice we can't really say that. 

He had 7 goals in 46 games w/ only getting 2PP time.  His ice time was all over the board (anywhere from barely over 10:00 to 21:00 and everything in between) but after October ended, he wasn't close to that 1G/60 pace he ended up averaging.

[#freejame]

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Human factors matter. That is why ‘trust the process’ works. That is why McDermott was hired, and had all the leeway to buyout contracts of star players who didn’t fit the system.  Took him three years to turn around the team and now we can pick up ‘cancer players’ and turn their angst into a weapon.  Look what San Jose has done with Evander Kane— nothing we could get out of him here, or in Winnipeg. Why?  They had such a strong room
 

 Krueger is a hire of a similar fashion- maybe not the best tactical mind, but his attention to human factors will revive the team and get more out of his players than they’ve been giving his predecessors. 

The tactical part of the game is for the assistant coaches. I don’t see this team making strides until Steve Smith is replaced, but that’s another fight for another day. 
 

Driving the coach out of town because a known charlatan isn’t living up to his contract?  You must have not been paying any attention to the Bills and shame on you if you’d rather bring the Ryan brothers back

I snipped some out but I couldnt disagree more with what I’m thinking is a McD-Diggs/Skinner-Ralph comparison. Diggs was poorly utilized and unhappy in Minnesota and came to Buffalo. He has said on a number of time everyone from Allen to Daboll to McDermott allows him to play his game and trusts him to make smart decisions. Skinner was in a very similar situation in Carolina when he was traded here and said many of the same things. Now we have Ralph and we have the current iteration of Skinner. McDermott is a person of the people and the way that his players speak of him is nothing like that of Ralph. Yea, plenty of Sabres praise Ralph in different ways, but it is nothing like the love and affection and respect and admiration that Bills players speak of McD. Skinner was never worth his contract, that isn’t on Ralph. But much of what has transpired with Skinner is totally and completely on Ralph. This is the closest I’ll ever come to defending Skinner, but he’s certainly not fully responsible here. Let him play his game, that’s why you signed him. 

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, JimS said:

Frolik was someone Ralph wanted and requested.

This raises so many alarms and probably confirms that Ralph lacks proper player assessment. 

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

He had 7 goals in 46 games w/ only getting 2PP time.  His ice time was all over the board (anywhere from barely over 10:00 to 21:00 and everything in between) but after October ended, he wasn't close to that 1G/60 pace he ended up averaging.

Well no we can definitely admit it went down as the season went on, but we do know that's when the line mates begin to factor in more prominently. His numbers did look good with Larsson after October, for one. 

Eye-test wise, I honestly do remember him getting in for chances last year and just failing to convert a lot. That's where the bad luck factors in - we know he has to ability to finish. His TOI was 14th on the team, so I'm firm on the belief, with that expected goals, and what we've see him do in the past, he should have been getting more than that, and that's BEFORE we factor in what a quality centre might bump that up to. 

This isn't to totally absolve Skinner. You actually have to do the converting, I get that. I'm just betting on a statistical regression to the mean, and my knowledge that Skinner can score goals, before I buy the idea he shouldn't be getting a fair shake at it. 

Yes, I think being teamed with Lazar and Sheahan is not a fair shake. 

2 hours ago, JimS said:

Frolik was someone Ralph wanted and requested.

No, really?

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yeah think?  The funny thing is I don’t mind Skinner on the 3rd line but with decent players.  He actually is a matchup nightmare for most opponents’ 3rd lines.  However RK approach creates a line of Lazar, Sheahan and Skinner, which lacks a playmaker to distribute the puck.

But really not convinced that Sheahan is anymore an every day player than Cozens, Asplund, or Mittelstadt will be.  Would rather see Skinner on line 2 or even line 3, but just not convinced that he's going to find himself regularly w/ Lazar & Sheahan.

We're also overlooking the possibility that Eichel will take some shifts from Lazar/Sheahan/other and having Skinner there he'd likely get more shifts w/ Jack than being 9n the Eakin line.

Skinner also took a fair # of shifts from Olofsson last year.  That could be in the plans again as well.  Which, again, if that's the plan, it works easier from the non-Eakin line (fewer parts to be disrupted).

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

This raises so many alarms and probably confirms that Ralph lacks proper player assessment. 

If it's true he WANTED Frolik and DIDN'T WANT Larsson, yes, I don't really get it

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

But really not convinced that Sheahan is anymore an every day player than Cozens, Asplund, or Mittelstadt will be.  Would rather see Skinner on line 2 or even line 3, but just not convinced that he's going to find himself regularly w/ Lazar & Sheahan.

We're also overlooking the possibility that Eichel will take some shifts from Lazar/Sheahan/other and having Skinner there he'd likely get more shifts w/ Jack than being 9n the Eakin line.

Skinner also took a fair # of shifts from Olofsson last year.  That could be in the plans again as well.  Which, again, if that's the plan, it works easier from the non-Eakin line (fewer parts to be disrupted).

Problem here is we literally cannot afford to waste time farting around with that set up even at all, when so much is on the line. 

Second bold, really like that

[Curt]

10 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

This raises so many alarms and probably confirms that Ralph lacks proper player assessment. 

Maybe he remembered him being pretty good from 5 years previously.............

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well no we can definitely admit it went down as the season went on, but we do know that's when the line mates begin to factor in more prominently. His numbers did look good with Larsson after October, for one. 

Eye-test wise, I honestly do remember him getting in for chances last year and just failing to convert a lot. That's where the bad luck factors in - we know he has to ability to finish. His TOI was 14th on the team, so I'm firm on the belief, with that expected goals, and what we've see him do in the past, he should have been getting more than that, and that's BEFORE we factor in what a quality centre might bump that up to. 

This isn't to totally absolve Skinner. You actually have to do the converting, I get that. I'm just betting on a statistical regression to the mean, and my knowledge that Skinner can score goals, before I buy the idea he shouldn't be getting a fair shake at it. 

Yes, I think being team with Lazar and Sheahan is not a fair shake. 

No, really?

His ES TOI was 9th behind 5 D, Eichel, Reinhart, & Johansson.

So, a guy that doesn't kill penalties at all, got himself bumped off the #1 PP, & is considered an ES specialist actually got more ES ice time than every forward except the Hart Trophy candidate, the 2C, and the guy that most everybody considers the team's 2nd best F.

That doesn't scream misuse on the surface.  IMHO.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

His ES TOI was 9th behind 5 D, Eichel, Reinhart, & Johansson.

So, a guy that doesn't kill penalties at all, got himself bumped off the #1 PP, & is considered an ES specialist actually got more ES ice time than every forward except the Hart Trophy candidate, the 2C, and the guy that most everybody considers the team's 2nd best F.

That doesn't scream misuse on the surface.  IMHO.

Yup, his total TOI was also 5th for forwards. 

4th in ES minutes for your best pure goal scorer at ES is really really not good. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Curt]

Just now, Thorny said:

Yup, his total TOI was also 5th for forwards. 

That's really really not good for your best pure goal scorer. 

I think you need to look at ES mins per game in this case.  That’s really what we are talking about, no?

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

I think you need to look at ES mins per game in this case.  That’s really what we are talking about, no?

I had edited that

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I had edited that

Should also be noted that I'm arguing from the position of his current setup with Lazar and Sheahan. Unless you think they'll be 4th. 5th, and 6th for icetime on the team. 

I understand @Taro Tthat you're are thinking the lines may not be representative of what we'll see - if that's the case, that would be great. But I don't recall seeing Skinner lined up like that, last year, in practice/camp. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

16 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Yup, his total TOI was also 5th for forwards. 

4th in ES minutes for your best pure goal scorer at ES is really really not good. 

Actually that is where the misuse comes from.  We had 4 top 6 forwards last year.  RK kept 3 on one line for most of the season and left Skinner on his own.  My guess is a VO/Jack pair and a Skinner/Reinhart pair would have lead to more offense.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Curt]

Krueger’s plan:

Step 1 - Create sahweet top 6. Check!

Step 2 - Put Skinner on 4th line. Check!

Step 3 - ? ? ? ? ?

Step 4 - Profit!!!  (Stanley Cup)

Im just waiting for the rest of the plan to be unveiled.

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

Should also be noted that I'm arguing from the position of his current setup with Lazar and Sheahan. Unless you think they'll be 4th. 5th, and 6th for icetime on the team. 

I understand @Taro Tthat you're are thinking the lines may not be representative of what we'll see - if that's the case, that would be great. But I don't recall seeing Skinner lined up like that, last year, in practice/camp. 

Thanks for the clarification in the 1st paragraph.

As for the 2nd, Skinner never lined up outside the top 6 (except arguably for that brief stint on Larsson's line) because the team only had 3 top 6 wingers.  Now they have 3 top 6 LWs, and Hall is the 1LW.  If the staff thinks Thompson deserves to be (or at a minimum doesn't diminish his line) in the top 6, then either Skinner or Reinhart will be outside the top 6 because Olofsson can't drive a line; those 2 can.

And really don't expect to see Skinner-Lazar-Sheahan as a regular thing.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Thanks for the clarification in the 1st paragraph.

As for the 2nd, Skinner never lined up outside the top 6 (except arguably for that brief stint on Larsson's line) because the team only had 3 top 6 wingers.  Now they have 3 top 6 LWs, and Hall is the 1LW.  If the staff thinks Thompson deserves to be (or at a minimum doesn't diminish his line) in the top 6, then either Skinner or Reinhart will be outside the top 6 because Olofsson can't drive a line; those 2 can.

And really don't expect to see Skinner-Lazar-Sheahan as a regular thing.

Right, so it all kinda comes to the same thing. We agree the line designation is irrelevant, he just needs to be with a player or two who'll compliment him. It is certainly in their power to achieve that, correct?

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Actually that is where the misuse comes from.  We had 4 top 6 forwards last year.  RK kept 3 on one line for most of the season and left Skinner on his own.  My guess is a VO/Jack pair and a Skinner/Reinhart pair would have lead to more offense.

 

But, based on the way Johansson & Skinner clicked in October, a case could be made that he wasn't left on his own.  (And we both agree that the team needed a better 2C, so the case that Skinner was alone can also be made.  Just saying it wasn't as cut and dried as it's being made out to be.)