Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[spndnchz]

From ‘Sharpen Up”

”The team is off today but they had a bust weekend that included the second Blue & Gold Scrimmage of training camp presented by BlueCross BlueShield of Western New York.”

🤣🤣

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

Is he actually any good?  Honest question.

What's a dishonest question? 🤡

[Thorner]

 

Skinner just needs capable linemates. It more so on Krueger than Skinner to get this fixed. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorner]

18 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It's more than that.  Skinner was an effective player when RK got here and last year with RK as coach he suffered his worst season when the coach refused until late in the year to adjust the lineup to try to get Skinner going.  RK was more interest in keeping the Jack/Sam "pair" together then experimenting to try to maximize his assets.  Now that same coach is demoting him to play with has beens and AAAA players.  He says Skinner isn't following his principals.  Everyone knows that Skinner isn't the greatest two way player, but he is one of the best 5 on 5 goal scorers in the NHL.  However, instead of finding away to utilize what Skinner does well he sends him to purgatory and hopes no one notices.   

Even renowned system man and disciplinarian Barry Trotz adjusted his system to accommodate the up tempo talent he had in Wash to win a Cup. He meet the players half way.  They played a better defensive structure overall but he also opened up to a more offensive mentality.  He even got Ovie to buy in, but he also didn't ask him to play on the 4th line.   Yes Skinner needs to buy in and do a better job playing a 200 foot game.  However, It's also up to the coach to find away to maximize his players.  The best coaches have systems but adjust to the talent they have.  

If this team falls to the bottom of the standings again, RK will be gone and Skinner will get another new coach.

Agree, nice post, and also, to the bold - given what the stats say, Skinner probably wouldn't have even had a poor season if he's been trusted to play more that 14th most TOI for Sabres players. 

It's on the coach. 

It's not just about maximizing what a player can contribute to a team, it's about maximizing what one of the best even strength goal scorers in the league can bring to the team. I don't care WHAT the system is, if it doesn't allow one of the best goal scorers to score, the system needs to be adjusted. Krueger has proven exactly nothing at the NHL level, and I mean that, exactly nothing - I'm not saying he can't be a good coach, but I see no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt, here. Why. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[triumph_communes]

Lindy Ruff had Thomas Vanek as a playoff healthy scratch because he didn’t believe he was trying hard enough.  He came out years later and made Vanek cry right after the offer sheet because he thought he was the MVP for the team.  Now, in hindsight we all would have taken those four first rounders that turned into 1OA picks, but don’t let that undermine the original point here.

 

We haven’t had a good coach in Buffalo since Ruff

 

Human factors matter. That is why ‘trust the process’ works. That is why McDermott was hired, and had all the leeway to buyout contracts of star players who didn’t fit the system.  Took him three years to turn around the team and now we can pick up ‘cancer players’ and turn their angst into a weapon.  Look what San Jose has done with Evander Kane— nothing we could get out of him here, or in Winnipeg. Why?  They had such a strong room
 

 Krueger is a hire of a similar fashion- maybe not the best tactical mind, but his attention to human factors will revive the team and get more out of his players than they’ve been giving his predecessors. 

The tactical part of the game is for the assistant coaches. I don’t see this team making strides until Steve Smith is replaced, but that’s another fight for another day. 
 

Skinner isn’t listening. We should first all be happy there’s 6 players capable to play in front of him. Second, ‘trust the process’. Third, Skinner has been through this exact same charade on other teams, and he put up points with grinders.  Let’s do some simple math:  40 goals with Eichel or 30 goals on the third line.  Meanwhile Eichel can turn any winger into 30 goals, whereas that same player on their own may make 10 on the third line.  Skinner on the third line has the team 10 goals ahead.  I’ll pick option 2 every time  

 

Driving the coach out of town because a known charlatan isn’t living up to his contract?  You must have not been paying any attention to the Bills and shame on you if you’d rather bring the Ryan brothers back

Edited January 12, 2021 by triumph_communes

[Thorner]

11 hours ago, I-90 W said:

RK is getting rolled on social media about this whole Skinner on the 4th line thing. It seems as if people are convinced it is set in stone or something.

Anyone getting mad at the line designation itself is missing the point, though. He doesn't need to be in the top 6, but he does need to play with a capable C. Not allowing him to do so is negligence. 

[Thorner]

10 hours ago, Derrico said:

Maybe, just maybe, Skinner needs to get his head out of his ass.  Why do we have to caudle these players?  He wasn't good enough last year and by all accounts isn't good enough in this years training camp either.  I'm assuming RK has tried over the past year tactics to get Skinner playing like he wants.  If Skinner isn't playing the system and they've had this discussion for awhile and nothing has changed then I have no problem RK calling him out as a wake up call.

Except he was. Sigh. 

This conversation can't go anywhere if people don't accept the fact that Skinner's down numbers were a product of a combination of bad luck and poor usage from the coach. This is what the stats clearly lay out. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Derrico]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Except he was. Sigh. 

This conversation can't go anywhere if people don't accept the fact that Skinner's down numbers were a product of a combination of bad luck and poor usage from the coach. This is what the stats clearly lay out. 

You’re going to sit there and explain to me how skinner was anything but a disappointment last season?

[Thorner]

Just now, Derrico said:

You’re going to sit there and explain to me how skinner was anything but a disappointment last season?

 

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

Skinner just needs capable linemates. It more so on Krueger than Skinner to get this fixed. 

 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, spndnchz said:

From ‘Sharpen Up”

”The team is off today but they had a bust weekend that included the second Blue & Gold Scrimmage of training camp presented by BlueCross BlueShield of Western New York.”

🤣🤣

I am a fan of bust weekends myself.  

[Thorner]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

Like a lot of people in this organization, he's got a lot to prove.

Somehow, we've moved to an alternate reality where Sam Reinhart of all people has become the least likely Sabre to start an argument.

He's trying to make you laugh.

And he's also right.

It's a sentiment I've seen a lot actually, and one I happen to share. 

The range of resulting possibilities w/this season is as wide as I can remember. 

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

The minute I saw him on waivers I knew you’d be posting. At least we can laugh about it now. I always forget this JBOT disaster when I’m listing his mistakes in judgement.

The fact that so many things fall by the memory wayside shows just how many things there were. 

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, Brawndo said:

If the Sabres want to Skinner to play on the 4th Line and want him to have success, they should put a waiver claim in on Derek Ryan. They played together in Carolina and had success. Ryan is also a better defensive center than anyone slotted for the Bottom Six currently. 

It's such a good point.

We can't fail to see the forest through the trees here. "we have to demote skinner to send a message" isn't enough, not when we have the means to pair him with a better player and salvage so much in the process, not when Krueger himself we all know has major input on these decisions. 

We know for a *fact* Skinner can score, a lot, and we know for a *fact* he's going to be making 9 million. The entire organization knew this heading in. It's on them to have a solution. I agree with @inkman

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[JimS]

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

The minute I saw him on waivers I knew you’d be posting. At least we can laugh about it now. I always forget this JBOT disaster when I’m listing his mistakes in judgement.

Frolik was someone Ralph wanted and requested.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

On the Skinner vs Krueger, battle for the soul of the organization.

Krueger is universally praised as a person.  His ability to managed situations, people, and organizations is highly decorated.  I have faith that if he says Skinner needs to do this/that, then that the truth.  He isn’t just being a stubborn jerk.  Skinner needs to do his best for the team, not the other way around.  There needs to be accountability.  That’s what a team is.  That’s good culture.

That being said, I’m not saying that Krueger is 100% right.  I have less faith in him as a hockey tactician than as a person. 

As a life coach, Krueger would be my go to. 

Jury is out on whether we can trust his hockey decisions, though, which you do mention, but that applies then, for me, to a lack of faith that he's necessarily telling Skinner the right thing to do, and especially a lack of faith in whether the plan itself is even a good one, should Skinner "listen". 

Jury's out!

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I hope and pray that I'm wrong.  I hope RK's bottom six proves productive.  The Sabres have 10 games in the last 18 days of Jan.  We'll know pretty quickly if the RK plan is working.

[Curt]

28 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What's a dishonest question? 🤡

If I were to ask sarcastically.  It could be a dishonest question if I already had my mind made up.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

 

Skinner just needs capable linemates. It more so on Krueger than Skinner to get this fixed. 

That’s actually really interesting.  I would not have guessed.

[Curt]

6 hours ago, Brawndo said:

If the Sabres want to Skinner to play on the 4th Line and want him to have success, they should put a waiver claim in on Derek Ryan. They played together in Carolina and had success. Ryan is also a better defensive center than anyone slotted for the Bottom Six currently. 

To echo @Thorny, yeah, they really should give it a thought.  He is old but has been a consistently good producer in a bottom 6 role.  

[Curt]

51 minutes ago, Thorny said:

As a life coach, Krueger would be my go to. 

Jury is out on whether we can trust his hockey decisions, though, which you do mention, but that applies then, for me, to a lack of faith that he's necessarily telling Skinner the right thing to do, and especially a lack of faith in whether the plan itself is even a good one, should Skinner "listen". 

Jury's out!

Agree.  I don’t even know what he is telling Skinner, let alone whether it’s a good idea.

And I’m not excusing Krueger.  If the team fails, it’s on him.  And if Skinner has another 14 goal season, that could be on Krueger too.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

 

Skinner just needs capable linemates. It more so on Krueger than Skinner to get this fixed. 

Which looks fairly impressive on the surface, but he scored 7 goals in October w/ Johansson and friggin' Sobotka as his linemates for roughly* 2.41 G/60.  And in the remaining 46 games he played, he equalled that 7 goal total for roughly* 0.68 G/60.

And that October scoring rate was better than his rate the previous year when he was w/ Eichel, so it doesn't seem to be fully a function of "capable linemates" though obviously he'd be expected to do better w/ better linemates.  (And it isn't a given that those better linemates do better with him.)

 

 

* "roughly" because could find his average ES TOI and also his actual & average full game TOI but could not find actual ES TOI, so used the average TOI's rather than actual and there will be error introduced into the calc.  Eyeballing it, it didn't seem that his TOI was significantly different towards the end of season than it was in October though it seemed to be up a bit, though it was down at times in the heart of the winter, so didn't see a point to scaling the ice time per game as didn't have per game ES data.

[Thorner]

13 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Which looks fairly impressive on the surface, but he scored 7 goals in October w/ Johansson and friggin' Sobotka as his linemates for roughly* 2.41 G/60.  And in the remaining 46 games he played, he equalled that 7 goal total for roughly* 0.68 G/60.

And that October scoring rate was better than his rate the previous year when he was w/ Eichel, so it doesn't seem to be fully a function of "capable linemates" though obviously he'd be expected to do better w/ better linemates.  (And it isn't a given that those better linemates do better with him.)

 

 

* "roughly" because could find his average ES TOI and also his actual & average full game TOI but could not find actual ES TOI, so used the average TOI's rather than actual and there will be error introduced into the calc.  Eyeballing it, it didn't seem that his TOI was significantly different towards the end of season than it was in October though it seemed to be up a bit, though it was down at times in the heart of the winter, so didn't see a point to scaling the ice time per game as didn't have per game ES data.

It should be noted that introducing all that *roughly* into the equation can alter the numbers a lot, especially when comparing to other players on the team. Anyways, Johansson was playing really well at that point, though. It shows you what Skinner can do with a capable C. For all the ragging I, and others did on Sobotka, that also speaks to the value a grinder type player can have with Skinner. Johansson got hurt, and his linemates proceeded to go down the toilet. It doesn't surprise me the number dipped as the season went on. Goal scorers can be streaky, at the end of the day, his number was higher over the full season than anyone else on the team. 

I think he can play with 1 on his line, but it can't be 2. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

Wasn’t analytics supposed to be a more important factor under KA?  

[Thorner]

Interestingly, his best expected goals stretch was while playing with Larsson. 

[Andrew Amerk]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Wasn’t analytics supposed to be a more important factor under KA?  

That would depend on what analytics hes looking at, and which ones matter to him. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Andrew Amerk

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

That would depend on what analytics hes looking at, and which ones matter to him. 

Apparently goals per 60 at ES doesn’t matter for a team that has struggled to score goals.  That makes sense. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN