Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[JohnC]

20 minutes ago, SwampD said:

When and where did Krueger talk about Skinner not playing the system?

Skinner's current role on a lower line speaks for itself. How Skinner is being used speaks louder than words. 

[nfreeman]

FWIW, Lindy also spoke from time to time about forward pairs.

I think when the dust settles, Skinner will be with Eakin and Cozens, leaving a 4th/checking line of Rieder-Lazar-KO.  Probably not to start the season, but by the end of the 1st month. 

[Derrico]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

One other thought on RK's statement that Skinner isn't playing the system.  That should have been kept in house.  He basically threw Skinner under the bus.  Nice!

He should have said we have 3 top 6 quality LWs and Hall and Olofsson have shown good chemistry with Jack and Eric so that's the direction we are going to start the year.  However if that camp chemistry doesn't carry over into the season we will reevaluate.  This way Skinner doesn't look like a chump and RK hasn't aired the dirty laundry in public.  He can still send the same message to Skinner in house and say if you want to get out of my dog house work on back checking and helping the D.  

Maybe, just maybe, Skinner needs to get his head out of his ass.  Why do we have to caudle these players?  He wasn't good enough last year and by all accounts isn't good enough in this years training camp either.  I'm assuming RK has tried over the past year tactics to get Skinner playing like he wants.  If Skinner isn't playing the system and they've had this discussion for awhile and nothing has changed then I have no problem RK calling him out as a wake up call.

[SwampD]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Skinner's current role on a lower line speaks for itself. How Skinner is being used speaks louder than words. 

Yes and no. I just watched the presser where Krueger said that. He said they are working together on it.

Jeff has never come across as a primadona, to me, unwilling to change. I have never though that Skinner was the type of guy that would say, “I skate my way! Deal with it.” I just think nobody has ever tried.

Some people have a problem with the term narrative, but I think it applies here.

[Curt]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You answered your own question about the player/coach relationship and the need for flexibility. In the Washington example Ovie bought into the structure that Trotz demanded. In fact that was his priority when he took over the job. Ovie didn't reluctantly conform to the coach's more disciplined precepts----he embraced them. Make no mistake that Ovie is an offensive juggernaut more than a defensive demon but to his credit it was evident that he was sincerely putting in the effort to be a more responsible two-way player. That is not the case with Skinner.

Just a note.  I recall a fair amount of friction between Ovi and Trotz when he first took over.  There were growing pains and a lot of questions about if Trotz was the right guy with that Caps team.  Trotz was about to get fired before they win the Cup.

[JohnC]

Just now, Curt said:

Just a note.  I recall a fair amount of friction between Ovi and Trotz when he first took over.  There were growing pains and a lot of questions about if Trotz was the right guy with that Caps team.  Trotz was about to get fired before they win the Cup.

I live in a Maryland suburb of DC so I followed the team. The transition for Ovi wasn't perfectly smooth and did have some resistance. But Ovi did, and still has, adjusted his game.  Trotz wasn't a fool. He recognized what Ovi's strengths and weaknesses were and to what degree he could get him to modify his game to fall within the coach's structure. There is no question that Ovi did tame his freewheeling offensive game for the benefit of the team. And as you noted the team finally won the cup with Trotz's. And when the coach went to the Island the team rather quickly transformed into a consistently good team. 

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Yes and no. I just watched the presser where Krueger said that. He said they are working together on it.

Jeff has never come across as a primadona, to me, unwilling to change. I have never though that Skinner was the type of guy that would say, “I skate my way! Deal with it.” I just think nobody has ever tried.

Some people have a problem with the term narrative, but I think it applies here.

Skinner is not a bad guy or negative influence. I have never said that. I don't believe that he is unwilling to change. But the bottom line is what you do on ice. And apparently it isn't satisfactory to what the coach expects. Until it is demonstrated on the ice that he can adjust his game to a greater degree that conforms to what the coach wants his role and playing time will be diminished. The coach has a system that he believes in. He has a talented offensive player who is playing outside of it. There needs to be an adjustment on the part of the player. Maybe the question comes down to not is the player willing to make the adjustment but is he capable of doing it. He needs to demonstrate that capability on the ice. So far it hasn't been done to the satisfaction of the coach.  

[jsb]

I was going to add something to this post but after reading someone comparing Ovie who may be the greatest goal scorer ever in the game to Skinner, WTF, I don't remember what I was going to say now. A talent like Ovie is a generational player, you give some consideration to him, Skinner?? He has issues with every coach he's played for about being responsible on the ice.

As for Cozens, looked absolutely awesome in the tournament but for those who watched the last scrimmage, he looked as lost as Mitts did last year. Hell Borgen even knocked him on his keister. What did he do or show to give him a starting role right off the bat?? And I think he'll end up being good but what happened to earning a spot?? 

[tom webster]

58 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Apples and oranges.  Casey is a kid and developing prospect.  

Show me the expert quote that says RK is a proven great NHL coach?  He failed in Edm and wasn’t given another shot at the NHL for years.  His first year here was marked by 5 significant losing streaks, a terrible PK and poor player usage.  

Never said anything about "a proven, great coach." His hiring was almost universally praised. Writers and reporters in Canada were shocked that Buffalo was able to lure him. He far from failed in his one year in Edmonton and it was his choice to leave for Europe. Poor player usage is an opinion I don' share. Like a lot of coaches he spent his first year laying the foundation for his preferred system. I know Jack and KO and Hall love Ralph, and are excited about the veteran presence on this year's team. Hopefully Jeff buys in because it will be near impossible to move him.

As far as apple and oranges, not quite. There is one "expert" holding on to the belief that Casey may still be a top prospect, and he may be one of those outliers who develops slower. It happens although most impact players show some signs of greatness much earlier. More then likely, if he can accept a lesser role, he can be a useful third liner. Hope not. I hope he's like Max Pacioretty who exploded in his fourth year in the NHL.

There are a lot more "experts" that believe RK is a quality coach, but that also does not mean they are right. There were people that thought that Dick Jauron would win a Super Bowl, people that still think that Doug Marrone is a quality coach. What you learn after forty five years of following, nobody really knows anything. It is what makes sports great, you get to watch it play out and when you get something right occasionally, you brag to your friends.

[Shootica]

6 minutes ago, jsb said:

I was going to add something to this post but after reading someone comparing Ovie who may be the greatest goal scorer ever in the game to Skinner, WTF, I don't remember what I was going to say now. A talent like Ovie is a generational player, you give some consideration to him, Skinner?? He has issues with every coach he's played for about being responsible on the ice.

As for Cozens, looked absolutely awesome in the tournament but for those who watched the last scrimmage, he looked as lost as Mitts did last year. Hell Borgen even knocked him on his keister. What did he do or show to give him a starting role right off the bat?? And I think he'll end up being good but what happened to earning a spot?? 

I don't think anyone is saying that Skinner is as good as, or even in the same ballpark as, Ovi.  And they're very different players stylistically.

But Skinner and Ovi are both goal scorers who have shown questionable defensive ability/effort through a good chunk of their careers.  Trotz was able to work with Ovi and develop his defensive game relatively late in his career.  Krueger seems to be trying to get more defensive effort out of Skinner, so Ovi is a good player to point towards as an example of it being possible.

 

[jsb]

13 minutes ago, jsb said:

I was going to add something to this post but after reading someone comparing Ovie who may be the greatest goal scorer ever in the game to Skinner, WTF, I don't remember what I was going to say now. A talent like Ovie is a generational player, you give some consideration to him, Skinner?? He has issues with every coach he's played for about being responsible on the ice.

 

@Shootica Just in case you missed the bolded.

[LGR4GM]

I am glad that instead of icing the best team after missing the playoffs for a decade, this team is going to ice a team based on "well matchups are imporant and this guy here was okay on the pk somewhere else". 

Ruostalainen should have been on the roster and he should be Skinner's center if you aren't putting him with Staal. 

[Shootica]

5 minutes ago, jsb said:

@Shootica Just in case you missed the bolded.

I did miss that, appreciate it.

Still though, we're stuck with him for along time so I can't blame them for trying to round him out a little bit.

[jsb]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I am glad that instead of icing the best team after missing the playoffs for a decade, this team is going to ice a team based on "well matchups are imporant and this guy here was okay on the pk somewhere else". 

Ruostalainen should have been on the roster and he should be Skinner's center if you aren't putting him with Staal. 

I do understand your point but one of the reasons for last years collapse was having statistically one of the worst PKs of all time. Did you really think they weren't going to address it at the beginning of this season?? I guess I'm going to see how they do before I start criticizing the moves.

[dudacek]

We are having a debate about whether Krueger is a bad coach because he moved Jeff Skinner out of the top six for two days in training camp to get a look at Tage Thompson, who has been outplaying Skinner in training camp?

Hockey really is back.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Derrico said:

Maybe, just maybe, Skinner needs to get his head out of his ass.  Why do we have to caudle these players?  He wasn't good enough last year and by all accounts isn't good enough in this years training camp either.  I'm assuming RK has tried over the past year tactics to get Skinner playing like he wants.  If Skinner isn't playing the system and they've had this discussion for awhile and nothing has changed then I have no problem RK calling him out as a wake up call.

I can tell you aren’t from Rochester.  No Raahchesterian would ever spell coddle the way you did because our ridiculously nasal pronunciation wouldn’t allow for something like caudle to come from your mouth or fingers.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by inkman

[jsb]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

We are having a debate about whether Krueger is a bad coach because he moved Jeff Skinner out of the top six for two days in training camp to get a look at Tage Thompson, who has been outplaying Skinner in training camp?

Hockey really is back.

 

1 minute ago, inkman said:

I can tell you aren’t from Rochester.  No Raahchesterian would ever spell coddle the way you did because our ridiculously nasal pronunciation wouldn’t allow for something like caudle to come from your mouth or fingers.  

 

[Brawndo]

From Down Goes Brown from the Athletic 

Their offseason in one sentence: The entire organization seemed to collapse under the weight of a decade of failure, with overwhelmed ownership flip-flopping on a GM change and ultimately handing the job over to an inexperienced and over-his-head rookie who, uh, then went out and made the roster a lot better.

Why they’re here: They have to be good some year, right?

Maybe not. There are no guarantees in the modern NHL, and that includes ever being swept along by the relentless march towards leaguewide parity. Somebody’s got to be the cautionary example. It’s usually Buffalo.

But when you add a recent MVP, and a solid second-line center, and you’ve got some good young talent on the way, and a franchise player who should be hitting his peak and also seems seriously pissed off about where his team is at … I mean, if the big breakthrough happened this year, it wouldn’t feel like it was coming out of nowhere, right? They didn’t upgrade the goaltending, and they’re in a tough division for a playoff bubble team. But we all apparently agree that Montreal is a playoff lock based on adding Josh Anderson and Jake Allen, while a Sabres team that finished last year with virtually the same record adds Taylor Hall and Eric Staal and we all think they’re still miles away?

They might be. Honestly, if they finished dead last I’m not sure I’d bat an eye. But if they shock us all and actually make a run at respectability, just remember that I kind of vaguely thought I might have seen it coming.

 

[dudacek]

Down Goes Brown is among the best reads in hockey.

 

[inkman]

I get demoting Skinner if he’s not following whatever system Ralph employs (not sure I agree with it) but FFS man act like you have a plan.  This team needs him to be a contributing member.  If you can’t figure out a way, find a guy who can.  Ralph is slowly slipping down the totem pole.  He says a lot of neat things and acts like a leader.  In the end, I don’t know if any of that translates to being a good hockey coach.  

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

From Down Goes Brown from the Athletic 

Their offseason in one sentence: The entire organization seemed to collapse under the weight of a decade of failure, with overwhelmed ownership flip-flopping on a GM change and ultimately handing the job over to an inexperienced and over-his-head rookie who, uh, then went out and made the roster a lot better.

Why they’re here: They have to be good some year, right?

Maybe not. There are no guarantees in the modern NHL, and that includes ever being swept along by the relentless march towards leaguewide parity. Somebody’s got to be the cautionary example. It’s usually Buffalo.

But when you add a recent MVP, and a solid second-line center, and you’ve got some good young talent on the way, and a franchise player who should be hitting his peak and also seems seriously pissed off about where his team is at … I mean, if the big breakthrough happened this year, it wouldn’t feel like it was coming out of nowhere, right? They didn’t upgrade the goaltending, and they’re in a tough division for a playoff bubble team. But we all apparently agree that Montreal is a playoff lock based on adding Josh Anderson and Jake Allen, while a Sabres team that finished last year with virtually the same record adds Taylor Hall and Eric Staal and we all think they’re still miles away?

They might be. Honestly, if they finished dead last I’m not sure I’d bat an eye. But if they shock us all and actually make a run at respectability, just remember that I kind of vaguely thought I might have seen it coming.

 

The writer sounds like an economist. On the one hand this and on the other hand that. What the writer is saying is that I could be wrong and I could be right. The illumination is very dim. 

[dudacek]

Just now, inkman said:

I get demoting Skinner if he’s not following whatever system Ralph employs (not sure I agree with it) but FFS man act like you have a plan.  This team needs him to be a contributing member.  If you can’t figure out a way, find a guy who can.  Ralph is slowly slipping down the totem pole.  He says a lot of neat things and acts like a leader.  In the end, I don’t know if any of that translates to being a good hockey coach.  

Like a lot of people in this organization, he's got a lot to prove.

Somehow, we've moved to an alternate reality where Sam Reinhart of all people has become the least likely Sabre to start an argument.

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The writer sounds like an economist. On the one hand this and on the other hand that. What the writer is saying is that I could be wrong and I could be right. The illumination is very dim. 

He's trying to make you laugh.

And he's also right.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

He's trying to make you laugh.

And he's also right.

His attempt at humor escaped me. I guess I'm a humorless guy. 🤡

[dudacek]

I can see how it could sneak past you in that clip if you were expecting the usual and weren't familiar with his work.

He's worth my Athletic subscription on his own.

[bob_sauve28]

50 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

From Down Goes Brown from the Athletic 

 They didn’t upgrade the goaltending, and they’re in a tough division for a playoff bubble team.  

 

And this might be the only thing that matters