Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Pretty sure Okposo will be w/ Eakin, not the 4th line.

Expecting that Reider is pencilled in at that line's LW but could see Thompson there as well.  Yeah, it seems that Skinner is in the dog house, so that 4th LW looks like him right now, but it could be any of him, Thompson, Reider, or Mittelstadt.  The 4C is most likely Lazar, but could be any of him, Mittelstadt, Cozens, or Sheahan.

 

As for Ruitsalainen, there's still 1 more opening in the 29, he has a chance to grab it.

Ya that could be, they just seem to be taking care of where each winger is in the lineup relative to where they will actually be playing. If they do switch it up, we are looking at Skinner - Lazar - Cozens. 

It's at least potentially successful. The one thing they cannot do is stick Skinner with 2 players who don't even have a *hope* for offense:

Skinner - Lazar - Okposo

Skinner - Lazar - Sheahan

Skinner - Sheahan - Okposo

Skinner - Sheahan - Lazar

Edited January 10, 2021 by Thorny

[LabattBlue]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

Conversely, Skinner is getting paid $9M to play like he is an NHL player and not a whiny brat.  Skinner does nothing to help himself. When he hasn't gotten his way he lets his play drop off. if he were truly offended by the demotion why wouldn't he be out there proving everyone wrong?

You want to blame the organization, and you can for the contract.  That GM is gone now.  The level of play by the player is squarely on the player themselves and no one else.

Skinner needs to step it up.  Bottom line.  or perhaps he'll be upset enough to waive his NMC and someone will take him.

Yes the GM is gone, but the owners who have final say especially on contracts that LARGE are still here.  The same owners who have destroyed this franchise for the last 10 years.  I've said it since the start of last season, the Sabres better hope for a compliance buyout in the next CBA, or Skinner's contract is going to kill them for years to come.

 

We will see how the season plays out, but it sound like the differences between RK and Skinner are still there.  It's up to Ralph to break bread and make it work with Skinner, as he is not going anywhere.

Edited January 10, 2021 by LabattBlue

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

I didn't watch the scrimmage so I can't specifically comment about it . But I'm bothered by the same observation by a few viewers that it looked like Skinner's play reflected a disinterest and that he seems lost. The thing that I am troubled about the Skinner saga is that one thing that is noticeable about his game even when not scoring is his skating talents. It just seems that he is struggling with his game and role and is going through the motions.  For those who watched the scrimmage is this a fair concern? 

I thought Skinner played like he often plays: bursts of inspired skating in the offensive zone sprinkled with lacklustre attention to defence. It's who he is and save a half-season with Jack and Sam, it's who he's almost always been.

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Anybody else find it interesting that there's been am odd # of D in that top session since Borgen bumped up?  Figured they keep it even to not be mixing & matching pairings.

Total of 28 in the 1st session; 1 shy of the limit for when camp breaks.  Not sure if Girgensons has officially been moved to IR yet.

I'm expecting them to carry seven defencemen on the roster and two on the practice squad. I think Gold group has reflected that and will continue to reflect that. We've seen Borgen pass Davidson, which makes me happy. We are also seeing Bryson being given an opportunity to do the same.

 

2 hours ago, freester said:

RK must hate Skinner and his game and is hoping he will ask to be traded. He is setting him up to fail. 

I must say given the amount of times I've read about the need for "culture" on this board, I am surprised by how many people on here think the tail should be wagging the dog.

38 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This looks like it may be a good call, based on the lines below. 

Poor Skinner - I don't see that line working unless Mitts has taken a massive jump. Last year I think we can agree that line would be a tire fire. If it's supposed to be a 3rd scoring line this year, Mitts will have to be ready for a role I don't think he is currently. But I'd have to see him play in real games. I don't think Casey's and Jeff's games mesh particularly well. Skinner needs someone who is going to push the play into the opponent's zone, who's strong defensively. 

 

Very disheartening. I thought Ruotsalainen would at minimum be on the taxi squad, he represents some of that potential unlockable improvement. Just because VO performed well in Rochester doesn't mean he necessarily needed it, nor does Ruotsalainen necessarily need AHL just because another player may have. I feel like, every year, competition is a buzz word more than an actual thing - it's *always* the vets that are given the spots. The vets with the lowest possible ceiling. 

I agree that any line with Skinner and two plumbers is not likely to work and that Casey and Jeff don't seem like a particularly good fit. Reading this, it struck me for the first time that "good" Casey has a lot in common with "good" Jeff. They both create and thrive on chaos, are adept at stealing pucks and flash one-on-one skills. Good Jeff is much stronger on the puck and good Casey much better at moving it.

'm also disappointed in R2, but I don't put it on false competition, I put it on him. R2 was pretty good with Taylor Hall in the first game, but he's not going to be there in the regular season. He was mostly invisible with depth guys in the second and Ralph has been pretty clear that depth guys need to be specialists. He has to do something to stand out.

22 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Actually, I just saw he corrected that and said Sheahan was at 4RW. 

So, I guess the set-up is:

Hall - Eichel - Thompson

Olofsson - Staal - Reinhart

Rieder - Eakin - Cozens

Skinner - Lazar - Okposo

 

Okposo/Eakin has never not been a thing, so I think it's likely Kyle and Dylan are flipped, and two of Dylan, Lazar and Sheahan wll be with Skinner opening night.

Edited January 10, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I thought Skinner played like he often plays: bursts of inspired skating in the offensive zone sprinkled with lacklustre attention to defence. It's who he is and save a half-season with Jack and Sam, it's who he's almost always been.

I'm expecting them to carry seven defencemen on the roster and two on the practice squad. I think Gold group has reflected that and will continue to reflect that. We've seen Borgen pass Davidson, which makes me happy. We are also seeing Bryson being given an opportunity to do the same.

 

I must say given the amount of times I've read about the need for "culture" on this board, I am surprised by how many people on here think the tail should be wagging the dog.

I agree that any line with Skinner and two plumbers is not likely to work and that Casey and Jeff don't seem like a particularly good fit. Reading this, it struck me for the first time that "good" Casey has a lot in common with "good" Jeff. They both create and thrive on chaos, are adept at stealing pucks and flash one-on-one skills. Good Jeff is much stronger on the puck and good Casey much better at moving it.

Okposo/Eakin has never not been a thing, so I think it's likely Kyle and Dylan are flipped, and two of Dylan, Lazar and Sheahan wll be with Skinner opening night.

Like I guess in theory? Mittelstadt hasn't shown close to the offensive acumen that Skinner has. I don't even think they are that similar stylistically - Skinner plays more like a grinding pest who goes to the dirty areas in the offensive zone, Mittelstadt is a playmaker. Skinner can't pass. Skinner has good accelaration, Mitts has poor acceleration but higher top speed. What they have in common is they are both poor defensively, one-dimensional players, so I do agree on that front. 

The second bit, as long as it's not Lazar and Sheahan. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

Like I guess in theory? Mittelstadt hasn't shown close to the offensive acumen that Skinner has. I don't even think they are that similar stylistically - Skinner plays more like a grinding pest who goes to the dirty areas in the offensive zone, Mittelstadt is a playmaker. Skinner can't pass. Skinner has good accelaration, Mitts has poor acceleration but higher top speed. 

The second bit, as long as it's not Lazar and Sheahan. 

The "good" Casey I'm referring to is the WJC Casey. We have never seen that in the NHL.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

The "good" Casey I'm referring to is the WJC Casey. We have never seen that in the NHL.

I'll have to pay more attention to see if I can find some pick-pocket action. It's not something that sprung to my mind but I'll take your word for it. 

[dudacek]

 

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I must say given the amount of times I've read about the need for "culture" on this board, I am surprised by how many people on here think the tail should be wagging the dog.

At some point they need to stop cutting of their nose to spite their face, though. Skinner is so far beyond chicken and egg at this point - regardless of Skinner getting demoted because he's not exuding the right "attitude" and a lack of top-level play or Skinner playing poor BECAUSE he's not being given top level linemates, it's time they put together a solution that works. We don't have to maximize Skinner but we do need to maximize what he is able to contribute to this team for the massive salary his is making. 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

At some point they need to stop cutting of their nose to spite their face, though. Skinner is so far beyond chicken and egg at this point - regardless of Skinner getting demoted because he's not exuding the right "attitude" and a lack of top-level play or Skinner playing poor BECAUSE he's not being given top level linemates, it's time they put together a solution that works. We don't have to maximize Skinner but we do need to maximize what he is able to contribute to this team for the massive salary his is making. 

Agreed.

So if we are building from the 1st line down and Hall/Eichel/Thompson and Staal/Reno/Ollie are superior to either line with Skinner, what do we do with Skinner?

It would seem to me that Skinner/???/Cozens in a protected scoring line is the right move, no? At least once we can confirm Dylan is what we hope he is?

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Thorny playing Skinner with two of Eakin, Okposo, Lazar, Rieder or Sheahan is a hopeless offense situation.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Agreed.

So if we are building from the 1st line down and Hall/Eichel/Thompson and Staal/Reno/Ollie are superior to either line with Skinner, what do we do with Skinner?

It would seem to me that Skinner/???/Cozens in a protected scoring line is the right move, no? At least once we can confirm Dylan is what we hope he is?

That looks like the only choice.  I fear RK won’t take it.  
I’d love to see Skinner Mitts Cozens.  Yes tons of question marks as to maturity or readiness, but at least they have the talent to add offense.

[Derrico]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Thorny playing Skinner with two of Eakin, Okposo, Lazar, Rieder or Sheahan is a hopeless offense situation.  

While I agree, I thought I read somewhere from canes fans saying skinner played on their third line there because he essentially did better with guys that would play more grind it out type hockey then high skill.  The potential options are not great but I’m fine him being used out of the top 6.  I was hopeful Cozens would be showing more to join skinner and make a great third line.  

Edited January 10, 2021 by Derrico

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Agreed.

So if we are building from the 1st line down and Hall/Eichel/Thompson and Staal/Reno/Ollie are superior to either line with Skinner, what do we do with Skinner?

It would seem to me that Skinner/???/Cozens in a protected scoring line is the right move, no? At least once we can confirm Dylan is what we hope he is?

Larsson would have honestly been ideal, as much as people don't want to hear it. Especially cause we *saw* how good their metrics looked together. I think if Larsson helped push the play into the opposing zone, Skinner and Cozens could have gone to work. 

I would have liked to see Ruotsalainen in that spot, Skinner - Ruotsalainen - Cozens just screams an offensive upside line that can take advantage of easier usage. 

Eakin is my third choice but I could see it working. He'd be reasonable once we get into the O-zone but, looking at his impacts, the big fear is he'll never get them there. 

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Thorny playing Skinner with two of Eakin, Okposo, Lazar, Rieder or Sheahan is a hopeless offense situation.  

I agree with this. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Just now, Derrico said:

While I agree, I thought I read somewhere from canes fans saying skinner played on their third line there because he essentially did better with guys that would play more grind it out type hockey then high skill.  The potential options are not great but I’m fine him being used out of the top 6.  I was hopeful Cozens would be showing more to join skilled and make a great third line.  

Id actually be open to trying Skinner/Eakin/Okposo for exactly that reason.

Honestly, I think I might be more worried about Jeff's defence dragging the other two down than them dragging down Jeff's offence.

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Derrico said:

While I agree, I thought I read somewhere from canes fans saying skinner played on their third line there because he essentially did better with guys that would play more grind it out type hockey then high skill.  The potential options are not great but I’m fine him being used out of the top 6.  I was hopeful Cozens would be showing more to join skilled and make a great third line.  

Absolutely, but not two of them. 

A Rask/Larsson as his C works splendidly. 

I get the idea of thought where people are saying, well, Eakin can add more pop to that line than Larsson would. I mean yes, true, but he doesn't drive that offense. Larsson doesn't specifically drive offense, but he drives play. If other players on his line are able to take care of the actual creating and finishing output, you're laughing. 

What Eakin can add in the o-zone won't matter if they aren't ever there. 

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Id actually be open to trying Skinner/Eakin/Okposo for exactly that reason.

Honestly, I think I might be more worried about Jeff's defence dragging the other two down than them dragging down Jeff's offence.

It's both. It submaroons potential offense in the bottom 6, and a potential checking line. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Larsson would have honestly been ideal, as much as people don't want to hear it. Especially cause we *saw* how good their metrics looked together. I think if Larsson helped push the play into the opposing zone, Skinner and Cozens could have gone to work.

But not Sheahan or Lazar? They are the closest stylistically on this team to Larry.

And Sheahan did put p 32 points as a 3C in Pit a few years ago.

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

But not Sheahan or Lazar? They are the closest stylistically on this team to Larry.

And Sheahan did put p 32 points as a 3C in Pit a few years ago.

Sheahan and Lazar have crap impacts compared to Larsson. Larsson drove play against some of the toughest matchups in the league. To my mind, we are mixing up stylistic similarity with aptitude, here. 

Everyone's mileage will vary with advanced metrics I guess but I think it's pretty clearly established I myself put stock in them and thus they inform my viewpoint heavily in this case. Lazar and Sheahan spend more time losing matchups than winning, Larsson spent more time winning than losing. With tougher competition. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Thorny
50 spelling errors

[Shootica]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That looks like the only choice.  I fear RK won’t take it.  
I’d love to see Skinner Mitts Cozens.  Yes tons of question marks as to maturity or readiness, but at least they have the talent to add offense.

I like the idea, but I think we need to add someone with a lick of defensive ability there.

My idea would be to have Mitts and Cozens rotate in and out of the lineup to start the year.  Run these two lines:

Skinner - Lazar - Cozens

Skinner - Mitts - Lazar

And that leaves Reider - Eakin -Okposo as the defensive bottom six line.

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

But not Sheahan or Lazar? They are the closest stylistically on this team to Larry.

And Sheahan did put p 32 points as a 3C in Pit a few years ago.

If it can't be Larsson, Rask, Ruotsalainen, or Eakin, ya I'd go with Sheahan or Lazar and make sure both Skinner and Cozens are on the line. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Shootica said:

I like the idea, but I think we need to add someone with a lick of defensive ability there.

My idea would be to have Mitts and Cozens rotate in and out of the lineup to start the year.  Run these two lines:

Skinner - Lazar - Cozens

Skinner - Mitts - Lazar

And that leaves Reider - Eakin -Okposo as the defensive bottom six line.

That actually could work & has the added bonus of pretty much guaranteeing Eichel-Hall-Dahlin start OT w/ the puck as Lazar wins it back to Rasmus & then hightails it off the ice for Hall.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Actually, I just saw he corrected that and said Sheahan was at 4RW. 

So, I guess the set-up is:

Hall - Eichel - Thompson

Olofsson - Staal - Reinhart

Rieder - Eakin - Cozens

Skinner - Lazar - Okposo

 

Shouldn’t it be Reider-Eakin-Okposo?

Hasn't than been a line basically every day of training camp?  With Girgs instead of Reider before he got hurt.

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, Shootica said:

I like the idea, but I think we need to add someone with a lick of defensive ability there.

My idea would be to have Mitts and Cozens rotate in and out of the lineup to start the year.  Run these two lines:

Skinner - Lazar - Cozens

Skinner - Mitts - Lazar

And that leaves Reider - Eakin -Okposo as the defensive bottom six line.

Chris Talyor said that Mitts was playing more of a 200 ft game and Cozens is already defensively responsible. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

If it can't be Larsson, Rask, Ruotsalainen, or Eakin, ya I'd go with Sheahan or Lazar and make sure both Skinner and Cozens are on the line. 

Really expect people are underestimating the value of Mittelstadt being 2 years older that Cozens at THIS moment.  Shootica's idea has promise, IMHO.

2 minutes ago, Curt said:

Shouldn’t it be Reider-Eakin-Okposo?

Hasn't than been a line basically every day of training camp?  With Girgs instead of Reider before he got hurt.

YEP.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Curt said:

Shouldn’t it be Reider-Eakin-Okposo?

Hasn't than been a line basically every day of training camp?  With Girgs instead of Reider before he got hurt.

Cozens was listed as the RW on that line so that's why I had him there. Krueger has seemed to try and play these guys where he sees them in season. 

Now that I'm looking at it again and people keep mentioning it - perhaps that is wishful thinking. If Cozens isn't expected to be in the opening night lineup, they may indeed have him in a spot he won't be playing game 1. And Sheahan was actually at RW. So, it's probably:

Hall - Eichel - Thompson

Olofsson - Staal - Reinhart

Rieder - Eakin - Okposo

Skinner - Lazar - Sheahan 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Chris Talyor said that Mitts was playing more of a 200 ft game and Cozens is already defensively responsible. 

Mittelstadt's 2 way game was much improved in Ra-cha-cha, but in fairness it had a VERY long way to go.  Would be very hesitant to saddle Mitts w/ both Skinner & a true rookie even in a sheltered role.  Like the idea of keeping Lazar in the lineup w/ 1 of the 2 top picks bookending the Dahlin pick and rotating those 2.