dudacek Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) The Athletic has put together a "Who would you pay more for in a trade?" ranking that accounts for age, contract and production. https://theathletic.com/1606480/2020/11/30/nhl-trade-value-rankings/ McDavid McKinnon Matthews Pastrnak Draisaitl Point Kucherov Heiskanen Makar Pettersson Quinn Hughes Jack Eichel is 12th. "The Sabres’ cornerstone doesn’t have quite the same cache as the other up-and-comers ahead of him on this list. But ask yourself this: What would Eichel look like on a more stable team with better talent around him? Buffalo had 68 points last season, failing to qualify for even the expanded playoffs. But what more could you ask from Eichel, who produced well over a point per game while scoring at a 40-goal pace? He was fourth in expected goals above replacement. You can understand why Eichel is frustrated and why new Sabres brass will try to do everything possible to turn things around, beginning with the signing of Taylor Hall this offseason. Hall will very likely be the best player Eichel has played with in the NHL. What kind of damage will he do with the 2018 MVP on his line? Eichel turned 24 in late October, and while he’s not quite a bargain, he’s signed for the next six seasons. In time, that contract may deliver plenty of value. He won’t be a free agent again until 2026 when he’ll be nearing 30." Dahlin is 19th. He just had back-to-back 40-point seasons, playing around 20 minutes a night, as a teenager. Dahlin turned 20 in April. Only guys I'd trade Jack for are McKinnon and McDavid. How about the rest of you? Edited November 30, 2020 by dudacek 1 Quote
Curt Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 I can’t see the justification for Matthews at 3 and Eichel at 12. Eichel is signed for 2 years longer (6 yrs vs 4) at $1.5M less. They are very similar in quality. Funny that the Maple Leafs reporter made the list, isn’t it? 2 2 Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 Matthews is one of the most over-rated players in hockey. 2 Quote
Thorner Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 Terrible list Is that Quinn as in Hughes? I don't really have a problem with any of the forwards listed ahead of Jack, even if I disagree with a few. But those D are no bueno. Centres are more valuable, and even that's only what I'd go to, as a decider, if the talent was close. 2 Quote
Weave Posted November 30, 2020 Report Posted November 30, 2020 27 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Matthews is one of the most over-rated players in hockey. He's also consistently rated higher than Jack by the non-Buffalo sources that I see. 2 Quote
Eleven Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 It's almost hilarious. The Athletic has been stretching due to COVID (and who can blame them?) but this has "deliberate hot take" all over it. 2 Quote
ubkev Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 Talk ***** about Buffalo, slight Buffalo in any way and get engagement. It's a simple formula that works every single time. 3 Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 NHL Networks Top 20 centers (2020) in order - I added the ages and draft class NHL Network’s Top 20 Centers Connor McDavid, Edmonton Oilers (24 on Jan 13) - 2015 Nathan MacKinnon, Colorado Avalanche (25) - 2013 Leon Draisaitl, Edmonton Oilers (25) - 2014 Sidney Crosby, Pittsburgh Penguins Auston Matthews, Toronto Maple Leafs (23) - 2016 Jack Eichel, Buffalo Sabres (24) - 2015 Patrice Bergeron, Boston Bruins Evgeni Malkin, Pittsburgh Penguins Brayden Point, Tampa Bay Lightning (24) - 2014 Mika Zibanejad, New York Rangers - 2011 Aleksander Barkov, Florida Panthers (25) - 2013 Mark Scheifele, Winnipeg Jets - 2011 Sebastian Aho, Carolina Hurricanes (23) - 2015 John Tavares, Toronto Maple Leafs Ryan O’Reilly, St. Louis Blues Elias Pettersson, Vancouver Canucks (22) - 2017 Steven Stamkos, Tampa Bay Lightning Sean Couturier, Philadelphia Flyers - 2011 Mathew Barzal, New York Islanders (23) - 2015 Anze Kopitar, Los Angeles Kings So.... Draisaitl is the 3rd best center, but 5th on the trade list behind the 5th best center in Matthews and a winger. Eichel is the 6th best center yet 12th on the trade line behind 9th and 16th best centers who are the same age or older. What a joke of a list. FYI I like this center list from the NHL. As to Matthews vs. Eichel - Matthews is a great goal scorer, but Eichel is the better all around player and improving as a goal scorer. Jack actually kills penalties on occasion and is on the ice at the end of games defending a lead. No so much for Matthews. Matthews is much better in the faceoff circle. I guess what it comes down to for me is that I look at Matthews as a one dimensional player (goal scorer). Eichel scores, but also creates and makes the players around him better. 1 Quote
PerreaultForever Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 9 hours ago, Curt said: I can’t see the justification for Matthews at 3 and Eichel at 12. Eichel is signed for 2 years longer (6 yrs vs 4) at $1.5M less. They are very similar in quality. Funny that the Maple Leafs reporter made the list, isn’t it? Spot on. We've already seen Jack best him head to head several times. Quote
Pimlach Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 15 hours ago, dudacek said: The Athletic has put together a "Who would you pay more for in a trade?" ranking that accounts for age, contract and production. https://theathletic.com/1606480/2020/11/30/nhl-trade-value-rankings/ McDavid McKinnon Matthews Pastrnak Draisaitl Point Kucherov Heiskanen Makar Pettersson Quinn Hughes Jack Eichel is 12th. "The Sabres’ cornerstone doesn’t have quite the same cache as the other up-and-comers ahead of him on this list. But ask yourself this: What would Eichel look like on a more stable team with better talent around him? Buffalo had 68 points last season, failing to qualify for even the expanded playoffs. But what more could you ask from Eichel, who produced well over a point per game while scoring at a 40-goal pace? He was fourth in expected goals above replacement. You can understand why Eichel is frustrated and why new Sabres brass will try to do everything possible to turn things around, beginning with the signing of Taylor Hall this offseason. Hall will very likely be the best player Eichel has played with in the NHL. What kind of damage will he do with the 2018 MVP on his line? Eichel turned 24 in late October, and while he’s not quite a bargain, he’s signed for the next six seasons. In time, that contract may deliver plenty of value. He won’t be a free agent again until 2026 when he’ll be nearing 30." Dahlin is 19th. He just had back-to-back 40-point seasons, playing around 20 minutes a night, as a teenager. Dahlin turned 20 in April. Only guys I'd trade Jack for are McKinnon and McDavid. How about the rest of you? How is Eichel not 3 or 4 or 5? You can argue about Eichel, Mathews and Draisaitl all day but who would trade Eichel straight up for Pastrnak or Point? Not I. Quote
Sabres Fan in NS Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 I really don't think that I would trade Jack for anyone on that list. The only player on the list that I would really like to see in Blue and Gold is Nathan, but I would not trade Jack, nor Rasmus II, for him. Quote
Thorner Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 @GASabresIUFANI like your focus on their differing skills re: Matthews and Eichel. I think they are close enough that it's really splitting hairs and comes down to stylistic preference, but for me, and I believe regardless of my inherent Sabres bias, I'd take Jack every time between the two because he's a better centre iceman, specifically, in terms of the skills one historically looks to from that position. Matthews works for the Leafs, however, because they can stick a guy like Marner on his wing, who actually has the more traditional centre skills himself. Quote
Thorner Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Pimlach said: How is Eichel not 3 or 4 or 5? You can argue about Eichel, Mathews and Draisaitl all day but who would trade Eichel straight up for Pastrnak or Point? Not I. I don't know if I'll ever get there with Leon. He plays half his minutes with the best player in the world, last I checked. Imagine what Eichel would look like on McDavid's wing. Eichel is better than Draisaitl. Also, both McDavid and Draisaitl are a significant step down defensively from Eichel and Matthews, for what it's worth. McDavid being, in reality, quite atrocious on the defensive front is why he's got a long, LONG way to go before he's even in the conversation with a player like Sidney Crosby, in the all-time sense. Edited December 1, 2020 by Thorny 1 Quote
Ducky Posted December 1, 2020 Report Posted December 1, 2020 3 hours ago, Thorny said: @GASabresIUFANI like your focus on their differing skills re: Matthews and Eichel. I think they are close enough that it's really splitting hairs and comes down to stylistic preference, but for me, and I believe regardless of my inherent Sabres bias, I'd take Jack every time between the two because he's a better centre iceman, specifically, in terms of the skills one historically looks to from that position. Matthews works for the Leafs, however, because they can stick a guy like Marner on his wing, who actually has the more traditional centre skills himself. Only MacDavid has been better than MacKinnon over the last few years which is why he is always talked about when it comes to the MVP. His next contract will reflect his worth and it'll be a doozy. Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted December 2, 2020 Report Posted December 2, 2020 Eichel vs MacKinnon Eichel 1st 4 seasons - 286 gms 101g 158a 259 pts - .35 g/gp .91 pts/gp MacKinnon 1st 4 - 300 gms 75g 131a 206 pts - .25 g/gp .69 pts/gp Eichel year 5 - 68 gms 36g 42a 78 pts - .53 g/gp 1.14 pts/gp MacKinnon year 5 - 74 gms 39g 58a 97 pts - .53 g/gp 1.31 pts/gp I'd argue that Jack breakout is very similar to Mac's except he didn't have Mikko Rantanen on his wing. Rantanen had 84 pts that season playing with MacKinnon. He scored goals at the same pace as Mac in year 5 and with a performing Skinner the year before Jack added 54 assists in 77 games. Based on these last two seasons don't be surprised if Jack reaches 95 plus pts (in a full 82 game season) with Hall on his wing. When that happens where will he be ranked? My guess is right with MacKinnon. 1 Quote
dudacek Posted December 2, 2020 Author Report Posted December 2, 2020 I've watched Quinn Hughes play a lot. The kid is a difference-maker, an offensive force who just makes plays. Anyone who would take him over Eichel doesn't watch either player enough. The writer gave his bias away when he said Jack doesn't have the same cachet — he's talking about the hype that comes from doing amazing things on a big stage. Jack's rep in these sorts of exercises will continue to be undersold until the Sabres are relevant. Quote
Weave Posted December 2, 2020 Report Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, dudacek said: I've watched Quinn Hughes play a lot. The kid is a difference-maker, an offensive force who just makes plays. Anyone who would take him over Eichel doesn't watch either player enough. The writer gave his bias away when he said Jack doesn't have the same cachet — he's talking about the hype that comes from doing amazing things on a big stage. Jack's rep in these sorts of exercises will continue to be undersold until the Sabres are relevant. The lack of cache is a real thing. You don’t earn a Captaincy sailing calm seas. The team needs to win before he gets placed above the guys were are discussing. And IMO it is warranted. Not to say the losing is Jacks fault. Rather, noone will know what level he is at until he shows that level in the biggest games. 2 Quote
Kruppstahl Posted December 2, 2020 Report Posted December 2, 2020 There are a bunch of guys I'd trade Jack for, but it's never going to happen. If he leaves the team it will be because he demands a trade, which remains a distinct possibility. Quote
dudacek Posted December 2, 2020 Author Report Posted December 2, 2020 43 minutes ago, Weave said: The lack of cache is a real thing. You don’t earn a Captaincy sailing calm seas. The team needs to win before he gets placed above the guys were are discussing. And IMO it is warranted. Not to say the losing is Jacks fault. Rather, noone will know what level he is at until he shows that level in the biggest games. While I obviously agree with most of this, it doesn't even have to be a "win." Pettersson and Hughes have won nothing but they have impressed on the big stages of the Calder race and the Bubble playoffs. Quote
Taro T Posted December 2, 2020 Report Posted December 2, 2020 IMHO, Eichel & MacKinnon are essentially identical though Jack has been slightly better with a lesser surrounding cast on his ELC. Because they're in the same division, both Americans, & only 1 season apart the writers seem to prefer the comparison between Jack & Matthews; but the correct comparison is Jack & Nate. And if MacKinnon is ahead of Matthew's, so should Eichel be. Which do you take, Jack or Nate? Pretty much comes down to are being 2 years younger worth the slightly worse injury history? Wouldn't trade either away if he's on my roster. And McClavicle is the only guy better at this point IMHO. (Hedman deserves mention too, but haven't really thought about whether he's better or not nor more valuable at this time.) But not sure could pull the trigger on a Connor for Jack deal either (knowing what you have & how it fits in has a value too) though that would be tempting. Quote
nfreeman Posted December 3, 2020 Report Posted December 3, 2020 On 12/1/2020 at 3:15 AM, PerreaultForever said: Spot on. We've already seen Jack best him head to head several times. We’ve also seen the reverse several times. Quote
JohnC Posted December 3, 2020 Report Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) On 12/2/2020 at 10:15 AM, dudacek said: I've watched Quinn Hughes play a lot. The kid is a difference-maker, an offensive force who just makes plays. Anyone who would take him over Eichel doesn't watch either player enough. The writer gave his bias away when he said Jack doesn't have the same cachet — he's talking about the hype that comes from doing amazing things on a big stage. Jack's rep in these sorts of exercises will continue to be undersold until the Sabres are relevant. Excellent insight about a team's success being a platform for a player's rating. The person who embraces your view is Jack himself. In the last couple of years he has started to stir and make noise indicating that he is not satisfied with what the organization has done to address roster deficiencies. He hasn't been obnoxious about it or overly public about it. But he has made it clear that he doesn't want to be stuck on a status quo and incremental-minded organization that lacks urgency to get better. Jack is a driven player who wants to be one of the best players in the game, if not in his era. He understands that what separates the special players from merely stat players are players who are on winning and are on Cup serious teams. Needless to say as a leader he's got the right demanding attitude. Edited December 3, 2020 by JohnC Quote
Thorner Posted December 3, 2020 Report Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) On 12/2/2020 at 11:16 AM, Weave said: The lack of cache is a real thing. You don’t earn a Captaincy sailing calm seas. The team needs to win before he gets placed above the guys were are discussing. And IMO it is warranted. Not to say the losing is Jacks fault. Rather, noone will know what level he is at until he shows that level in the biggest games. I agree with your analysis of why Jack doesn't get quite the cache he should (he already does get a lot, he finished 8th in league MVP voting, 6th on NHL.com's centre list, etc) and that we'll have to wait until we are winning more to get it, but I disagree with the bold. You'd be giving more weight to Quinn Hughes 90 total career NHL hockey games (regular season and playoffs) than Jack Eichel's 354. That's gonna be a "no" from me, dawg. Jack is simply on another level. It can be a difference maker at this time when comparing Jack and some of the other guys above him, indeed I'm not outwardly taking issue with the group of players listed above Jack, just a few of them. It's too extreme in those cases. Edited December 3, 2020 by Thorny 1 Quote
Thorner Posted December 3, 2020 Report Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) On 12/2/2020 at 12:02 PM, dudacek said: While I obviously agree with most of this, it doesn't even have to be a "win." Pettersson and Hughes have won nothing but they have impressed on the big stages of the Calder race and the Bubble playoffs. Well they had a pretty decent playoff run last year, which goes a long way. I think that would get it done for Jack, but the Calder thing is a good point, too. Jack was legit in the MVP race last year while the Sabres were still actually alive. A full season where the Sabres simply make the playoffs, or potentially even just stay alive until the very end, would probably keep him right at the top of the MVP convo/earn him a nomination, and do more less the same job as a playoff appearance in terms of that cache we are speaking about. Edited December 4, 2020 by Thorny Quote
Ducky Posted December 4, 2020 Report Posted December 4, 2020 (edited) A nonsensical list. As far as MacKinnon goes, he is only getting 6.3m a year for another 3 years!!! Edited December 4, 2020 by Ducky Quote
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