Sabres Sign 2020 First Round Pick Jack Quinn to ELC

[dudacek]

Just now, klos1963 said:

We can play these games all day long - Dahlin was #1 overall 'generational talent', Karlsson was 15th overall.

How is that relevant to Labatt's question?

[klos1963]

Just now, dudacek said:

There's gotta be a category (or a few) between elite and above average then.

irrelevant, Dahlin needs to take a big step up this year to help the team make the playoffs. It's not all on him, but that's why he was #1.

[klos1963]

Just now, dudacek said:

How is that relevant to Labatt's question?

I don't even remember the question now. Point is, In my opinion, we need more out of Dahlin if we want a better chance to make the playoffs. I'm not saying he can't or won't, but I think people dismiss his shortcomings too easily.

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

irrelevant, Dahlin needs to take a big step up this year to help the team make the playoffs. It's not all on him, but that's why he was #1.

Probably.

But to the topic at hand, no defenceman (not even Bobby Orr, who was 41, 31, 64 before exploding for 120) was elite before he turned 20.

I think its premature to start writing Dahlin off as a disappointment.

Edited November 21, 2020 by dudacek

[Curt]

28 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Not to be a smartass, but at what age will he become a generational talent?

Dahlin was projected to be the best defenseman coming out of the draft since Potvin....you don’t see that quote thrown around in recent months. 

At Dahlin’s age, was Potvin a better NHL player?  Nope, he was playing in the OHL.

The term generational is subjective, but Dahlin was the best 18 year old Dman in the NHL, then the best 19 year old Dman in the NHL.  Next year I expect him to be the best 20 (and under) year old Dman in the NHL, so on and so forth.

Are you asking when he will be the best D in the league?  When he will be top 5?  Know one can specifically answer that.  But Dahlin has been elite FOR A D HIS AGE.  I expect that to continue going forward as he both improves and ages.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Probably.

But to the topic at hand, no defenceman (not even Bobby Orr, who was 41, 31, 64 before exploding for 120) was elite before he turned 20.

I think its premature to start writing Dahlin off as a disappointment.

It is.  But there were people writing Eichel off as a disappointment as well when he was a teenager.  

And his being viewed as "a disappointment" while still a teen when we can count teenagers playing D in the NHL on 2 hands is even more confounding than people saying he was the Sabres best D man at the beginning of last season.  

Hyperbole IMHO is just about the biggest bane of message boards.

[Curt]

30 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

He's got a long way to go, he's below average defensively and above average, but not elite offensively. If and when he gets there, I'll be happy to say so, but fans cannonize him at the same time accepting the fact that he's not there yet.

He'll be in his 3rd season, he was expected to be further along than most teenagers because he played in a higher league in Sweden. He needs to be better than good. In his defense, I do believe the team has held him back and not given him more freedom to make plays, maybe that changes this year with more talent up front and another season with Krueger.

He has been much further along than most other teenagers.  Was there a better 18-19 year old D in the league?

Im not necessarily disagreeing with evaluation of him as a player.  For me, he probably has been very good offensively and a little below average defensively.  Also, yeah, Buffalo kind of needs him to be better, but he was 19 and getting better is something that 19 year olds generally do.

I think that your expectations were maybe too high.  There was no one his age better.

[klos1963]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Probably.

But to the topic at hand, no defenceman (not even Bobby Orr, who was 41, 31, 64 before exploding for 120) was elite before he turned 20.

I think its premature to start writing Dahlin off as a disappointment.

Orr won his first Norris as a 19 year old. then just went crazy.  I'm not writing him off, just see a need for major improvement.

[Curt]

15 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

Orr won his first Norris as a 19 year old. then just went crazy.  I'm not writing him off, just see a need for major improvement.

I’ll add this.  This is the list of defensemen, in the entire history of the NHL, who have produced more points per game than Dahlin in their age 18 or 19 seasons.

18: (2) Orr, Housley

19: (4) Housley, Bourque, Larry Murphy, Rick Hampton

That’s it.  5 guys.  Most of these were during the high scoring 1980’s era.  And interestingly, Dahlin actually produced points at a higher rate than Orr as a 19 year old.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Curt

[klos1963]

7 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’ll add this.  This is the list of defensemen, in the entire history of the NHL, who have produced more points per game than Dahlin in their age 18 or 19 seasons.

18: (2) Orr, Housley

19: (4) Housley, Bourque, Larry Murphy, Rick Hampton

That’s it.  5 guys.  Most of these were during the high scoring 1980’s era.  And interestingly, Dahlin actually produced points at a higher rate than Orr as a 19 year old.

I know it might sound like i'm crapping on Dahin but I'm not. But points aren't the only judge of a player. Housley was a crappy defensive player, just horrible. 

Who can forget the great Rick Hampton...lol

 

[Curt]

8 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

I know it might sound like i'm crapping on Dahin but I'm not. But points aren't the only judge of a player. Housley was a crappy defensive player, just horrible. 

Who can forget the great Rick Hampton...lol

 

Absolutely.  It’s not the end all for sure.  It’s one objective data point.

Im just showing that what Dahlin did at his age is not something that just happens.  It hasn’t been done by anyone else in 35 years.

I know that you are just saying you expected more, but what 18-19 year old defenseman have recently been better?  It’s an extremely short list, if there are any at all.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Curt

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, klos1963 said:

Orr won his first Norris as a 19 year old. then just went crazy.  I'm not writing him off, just see a need for major improvement.

Look at the game and any other defenseman’s stats in Orr’s first 3 years.   Scoring defenseman were rare.   He was it.  Truly a generational player,  like Gretzky.  

[tom webster]

5 hours ago, klos1963 said:

Orr won his first Norris as a 19 year old. then just went crazy.  I'm not writing him off, just see a need for major improvement.

Technically, he was already 20 when trophy was awarded, but it was his second season,

Edited November 21, 2020 by tom webster

[Andrew Amerk]

People compare Dahlin to Lidstrom. 
 

Lidstrom didn’t win a Norris until he was 31. 
 

Dahlin is already good, let him keep cooking. 

[LGR4GM]

This is the hope for Quinn. It is a big gamble. 

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Did Quinn make Canadian world junior team? Thanks

[Eleven]

11 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said:

Did Quinn make Canadian world junior team? Thanks

Not yet...they return to the ice on Dec. 7 and will continue evaluating the roster.

[Ducky]

On 11/30/2020 at 11:03 AM, Ogelthorpe said:

Did Quinn make Canadian world junior team? Thanks

There haven't been any cuts yet. They are doing a 14 day quarantine in their rooms after two players tested positive from what I have read. 

It's going to really suck for the 10-12 players that will be cut a couple of days after they get back on the ice.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Ducky

[LGR4GM]

 

I think this belongs here too. It's a good read and helps anyone understand where Quinn came from and how he got here. Sounds like he's worked hard this offseason and coaches see the results. 

[Derrico]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

I think this belongs here too. It's a good read and helps anyone understand where Quinn came from and how he got here. Sounds like he's worked hard this offseason and coaches see the results. 

Not as impactful obviously but I see this as the Josh Allen of draft picks.  Fans hated it at the time because others were still on the board (Josh Rosen) but incredibly hard working kid that wasn’t a high recut in younger years.  Will be fun watching his development.  I hope this could be a guy that takes nice steps each season based on hard work every offseason.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Derrico said:

Not as impactful obviously but I see this as the Josh Allen of draft picks.  Fans hated it at the time because others were still on the board (Josh Rosen) but incredibly hard working kid that wasn’t a high recut in younger years.  Will be fun watching his development.  I hope this could be a guy that takes nice steps each season based on hard work every offseason.

I understand your take.  I was one that preferred Alien over Rosen.   Allen had the most impressive physical tools in his draft class and he struck me as humble, willing to work, and looking to be accepted.  Rosen, while of higher pedigree, was a lesser physical specimen and carried an arrogance that can be good or bad.  Neither seemed to be a sure thing so I take the more coachable, especially if more physically gifted.  

[LGR4GM]

Allen is the exception, not the rule. 

Quinn being another exception is a big gamble. Lots of guys who work hard and have tools don't make it or are not great. 

[JohnC]

14 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I understand your take.  I was one that preferred Alien over Rosen.   

You have an extraterrestial view on things. 🤡

[dudacek]

45 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Allen is the exception, not the rule. 

Quinn being another exception is a big gamble. Lots of guys who work hard and have tools don't make it or are not great. 

Allen for me was really interesting in the sense that it showed how the scouting pendulum had shifted too far in the other direction.

20 years ago 6’4” 240 pounders who can run and throw the ball 80 yards got eagerly overdrafted all the time because scouts ignored the most important element: how well can he play?

With Allen, the overwhelming focus was on the latter to the point where people ignored how physically blessed he was.

Quinn is not as physically blessed as Allen, but where he is the same is that both have a history of being dismissed by the hype machine and have quietly gone about their business proving the hype machine wrong.

Edited December 31, 2020 by dudacek

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

You have an extraterrestial view on things. 🤡

Haha.  Darn auto correct.