VO trade value?

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, klos1963 said:

His prime years may be done by the time he's 26-28 years old?

Yes. Typically the number is after you hit 28 your scoring begins to decline. That's an average though and some players don't. 

[Wyldnwoody44]

Let's just hope zegmus doesn't take out one of the new guys in training camp, this is the Sabres after all. 

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, Curt said:

This hasn’t actually been the case though.  Last season the top line (Olofsson-Ike-Sam) got the most minutes by a wide margin, then the other 3 lines were extremely close in ice time,  often fluctuating a lot from game to game.  And it’s not unusual for the 2nd/3rd lines  of NHL teams to be very close in ice time.

With more talent, will Krueger try to stack the talent on 2 lines and follow suit with the ice time? Will he try to spread the talent out and spread the ice time as well?  I don’t know and I’m not sure how you could know. It’s kind of uncharted territory.

Odds are the first line is going to have Hall/Jack/Reinhart. Reinhart in my opinion is a probable but not a definite. The second line appears to be Skinner/Staal/with the winger maybe Olofsson? The winger on that line is an open issue. The five players that I have mentioned are arguably our top five players who will most likely staff the two lines. Reinhart can be a candidate as a winger for either of the two top lines. My point and opinion is that it is most likely that our top players will be staffing our top two lines.  

[Curt]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Odds are the first line is going to have Hall/Jack/Reinhart. Reinhart in my opinion is a probable but not a definite. The second line appears to be Skinner/Staal/with the winger maybe Olofsson? The winger on that line is an open issue. The five players that I have mentioned are arguably our top five players who will most likely staff the two lines. Reinhart can be a candidate as a winger for either of the two top lines. My point and opinion is that it is most likely that our top players will be staffing our top two lines.  

The bolded is much different from what you originally said.

You said that you don’t think the “ideal notion” of spreading the scoring talent over 3 lines even “exists in reality”, and also that it was “inevitable” that two lines would be far ahead of the others in ice time.

Those are pretty absolute stances that really have no supporting evidence.

If you are walking it back to the bolded, then I agree.  😉

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

The bolded is much different from what you originally said.

You said that you don’t think the “ideal notion” of spreading the scoring talent over 3 lines even “exists in reality”, and also that it was “inevitable” that two lines would be far ahead of the others in ice time.

Those are pretty absolute stances that really have no supporting evidence.

If you are walking it back to the bolded, then I agree.  😉

I appreciate your comments. I will walk it back and clarify what I wanted to stress in a response to Thorny. He was arguing that it would be a  good ideal to play Reinhart  on a lower line in order to spread the scoring around the lines beyond the top two. That is a reasonable position but I disagree with it, especially as it relates to Reinhart. My position is that Reinhart should be on one of the top two lines and not moved to a third line in order for more balanced scoring. On that issue as it relates to Reinhart I'm very resolute if not bordering on absolute. 

And on the issue whether the "ideal notion" of spreading the scoring talent over 3 lines exists there are a few teams in which that situation exists. However, I'm comfortable in saying that with the amount of talent on the Sabres's team that "ideal notion" doesn't exist. 

[Thorner]

14 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

What a dilemma, possibly having too much talent on the roster. Personally I don't think it'll be an issue. Somebody will step up and somebody will disappoint and move down and it'll all shake out fine. Also not worried about who the Kraken takes. If we end up with surplus talent at that time, oh well, we lose one, we have a surplus...............

Adding Hall has certainly changed the conversation, but I have to hold back my excitement. Something always seems to go wrong but fingers crossed.  

We assuredly do not have too much talent on the roster. 

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

Odds are the first line is going to have Hall/Jack/Reinhart. Reinhart in my opinion is a probable but not a definite. The second line appears to be Skinner/Staal/with the winger maybe Olofsson? The winger on that line is an open issue. The five players that I have mentioned are arguably our top five players who will most likely staff the two lines. Reinhart can be a candidate as a winger for either of the two top lines. My point and opinion is that it is most likely that our top players will be staffing our top two lines.  

What makes you keep saying this?

Edited October 28, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I appreciate your comments. I will walk it back and clarify what I wanted to stress in a response to Thorny. He was arguing that it would be a  good ideal to play Reinhart  on a lower line in order to spread the scoring around the lines beyond the top two. That is a reasonable position but I disagree with it, especially as it relates to Reinhart. My position is that Reinhart should be on one of the top two lines and not moved to a third line in order for more balanced scoring. On that issue as it relates to Reinhart I'm very resolute if not bordering on absolute. 

And on the issue whether the "ideal notion" of spreading the scoring talent over 3 lines exists there are a few teams in which that situation exists. However, I'm comfortable in saying that with the amount of talent on the Sabres's team that "ideal notion" doesn't exist. 

I didn't say it would necessarily be a good idea, merely that it's hypothetically a viable option. We can't rule out that working well for us, after seeing it employed successfully by other teams, notably Vegas. 

I agree with you it's likely Reinhart is on a top 2 line, though. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Thorny

[JohnC]

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We assuredly do not have too much talent on the roster. 

What makes you keep saying this?

Krueger has stated that Hall will play on the Jack line. Of course that could change. Then the issue is whether Reinhart will play on one of the top two lines. Reinhart has played well with Jack and has individually excelled as a linemate. If you look at the style of both Hall and Jack they are speedsters who like to carry the puck. To balance it out they need a facilitator (assist oriented) to form a more cohesive line. At this point the line projections are simply line projections.   

[PerreaultForever]

43 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We assuredly do not have too much talent on the roster. 

What makes you keep saying this?

The first line is, presuming numerous prospects take leaps and bounds added to the existing new veteran bodies also being good and not disappointing. 

The second is what Kreuger was quoted as saying. He made a lofty claim that "with our system" the combination of Hall and Eichel could be unstoppable. I believe the article may have assumed Reinhart as the 3rd part simply because of last year, not sure, but it's logical. It was on nhl.com

So I think that is the plan to start, and then it gets changed maybe if that doesn't click the way he expects it to. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Krueger has stated that Hall will play on the Jack line. Of course that could change. Then the issue is whether Reinhart will play on one of the top two lines. Reinhart has played well with Jack and has individually excelled as a linemate. If you look at the style of both Hall and Jack they are speedsters who like to carry the puck. To balance it out they need a facilitator (assist oriented) to form a more cohesive line. At this point the line projections are simply line projections.   

Can you elaborate on that thought?  Don't see where a "facilitator" (aka 2ndary assist man) makes for a more cohesive line when there are already 2 primary assist men on the line.  Eichel feeding Hall on a rush or cycle sets Hall up for a shot, a give & go back to Eichel, or a meatball for Olofsson (or other finisher) to tee up.  The D gets to pick their poison.  Likewise, there are options galore when Hall has the puck.

Even when Olofsson has the puck, now the g-n-g can become deadly as the D & goalie have to respect Eichel's (& Hall's) shot & now suddenly Olofsson has a very clean look at a 1 timer.

And Reinhart & Staal can basically work the same effect for Skinner as their shooter.  Staal gets hung a little higher in the zone as both Skinner & Reinhart are at their most effective low, though Sam doesn't have to be as low as Pominville needs to be to be effective.  And staying a little higher ends up keeping Staal defensively responsible.

Just loving the way having Hall opens up so much of the rest of this roster.

[Thorner]

Reinhart has also weirdly, statistically, has a much closer goals to assist ratio than I may have thought coming out of the draft - everything about him does scream "cerebral" and cerebral often translates to "vision" and "playmaker", and Reinhart assuredly does pass the puck very well - but (I think it was) @Weave *absolutely* had it (one of the better panned-out calls I've seen TBH) - he's Patrick Sharp. He's more of a relative goal scorer than Eichel is - Eichel's truest nature is passing the puck, as good as his shot is. 

Even looking back at Sam's junior stats, I feel like what people thought he *should* be factored in a little there, or it could even be my recollection bias - he was dubbed a playmaker and yes he can do that but, even say his second highest CHL point total - 35g, 50 A. That's a pretty close balance for a C in junior. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Weave]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Reinhart has also weirdly, statistically, has a much closer goals to assist ratio than I may have thought coming out of the draft - everything about him does scream "cerebral" and cerebral often translates to "vision" and "playmaker", and Reinhart assuredly does pass the puck very well - but (I think it was) @Weave *absolutely* had it (one of the better panned-out calls I've seen TBH) - he's Patrick Sharp. He's more of a relative goal scorer than Eichel is - Eichel's truest nature is passing the puck, as good as his shot is. 

thx

[LGR4GM]

I think Reinhart's defensive skills help cement him in line 1 personally

[JohnC]

50 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Can you elaborate on that thought?  Don't see where a "facilitator" (aka 2ndary assist man) makes for a more cohesive line when there are already 2 primary assist men on the line.  Eichel feeding Hall on a rush or cycle sets Hall up for a shot, a give & go back to Eichel, or a meatball for Olofsson (or other finisher) to tee up.  The D gets to pick their poison.  Likewise, there are options galore when Hall has the puck.

Even when Olofsson has the puck, now the g-n-g can become deadly as the D & goalie have to respect Eichel's (& Hall's) shot & now suddenly Olofsson has a very clean look at a 1 timer.

And Reinhart & Staal can basically work the same effect for Skinner as their shooter.  Staal gets hung a little higher in the zone as both Skinner & Reinhart are at their most effective low, though Sam doesn't have to be as low as Pominville needs to be to be effective.  And staying a little higher ends up keeping Staal defensively responsible.

Just loving the way having Hall opens up so much of the rest of this roster.

This issue of who should be the third person on the Jack and Hall line (presumptive line mates) was discussed on WGR's the Instigator Show with Rob Ray and Craig Rivet. Ray argued forcefully that he felt that it was a more effective line with Reinhart on that line because he believed that he was the more complementary player to those two more dynamic players than another player such as Olofsson or another finisher. I agree with his reasoning. 

Rob Ray also pointed out that with Reinhart on the first line with Jack and Hall that his scoring would be at least 20 points higher than if he played on the Staal line. One can argue over how much more effective Reinhart would be from a scoring standpoint if he were on the first line but it is a reasonable expectation that he would score much more on the Jack line.

I'm a ardent supporter of Reinhart. The issue isn't whether he could also play on the second line and make it a better line to balance out the more potent first line. The answer to that question is certainly yes. The bigger issue for me is whether Sam better balances the first line and whether he is demonstrably more productive on that line. I say yes to both issues. 

I'm not saying that the people who would want Sam on the second line are wrong because there is merit to that stance. However, I strongly agree with Rob Ray's position that Sam should be on the Jack line with Hall. 

 

 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

This issue of who should be the third person on the Jack and Hall line (presumptive line mates) was discussed on WGR's the Instigator Show with Rob Ray and Craig Rivet. Ray argued forcefully that he felt that it was a more effective line with Reinhart on that line because he believed that he was the more complementary player to those two more dynamic players than another player such as Olofsson or another finisher. I agree with his reasoning. 

Rob Ray also pointed out that with Reinhart on the first line with Jack and Hall that his scoring would be at least 20 points higher than if he played on the Staal line. One can argue over how much more effective Reinhart would be from a scoring standpoint if he were on the first line but it is a reasonable expectation that he would score much more on the Jack line.

I'm a ardent supporter of Reinhart. The issue isn't whether he could also play on the second line and make it a better line to balance out the more potent first line. The answer to that question is certainly yes. The bigger issue for me is whether Sam better balances the first line and whether he is demonstrably more productive on that line. I say yes to both issues. 

I'm not saying that the people who would want Sam on the second line are wrong because there is merit to that stance. However, I strongly agree with Rob Ray's position that Sam should be on the Jack line with Hall. 

 

 

Doubt that Sam would end up 20 points higher with Eichel & Hall, would probably be more like 10-12.  But Olofsson could definitely end up w/ 20 extra points playing w/ those 2 and Skinner probably gets 10 - 15 extra playing w/ Sam & Staal rather than Staal & Olofsson.

My goal isn't to optimize any single player's output (though if they could make eye a convincing case that EICHEL would get 20 more points playing w/ Sam over VO would consider it) but rather to optimize the team's ES NET goals for.  Really don't expect Eichel & Hall's production will be significantly effected regardless of the winger provided it isn't putting somebody like Okposo out there w/ them provided they are together, so the idea is to maximize everybody else's output.

And again, expect having a sniper w/ 2 playmakers optimizes 2 guys (& possibly Staal as well) but putting 3 playmakers together and 2 scorers only optimizes 1 guy.  My 2 cents.

[JohnC]

Just now, Taro T said:

Doubt that Sam would end up 20 points higher with Eichel & Hall, would probably be more like 10-12.  But Olofsson could definitely end up w/ 20 extra points playing w/ those 2 and Skinner probably gets 10 - 15 extra playing w/ Sam & Staal rather than Staal & Olofsson.

My goal isn't to optimize any single player's output (though if they could make eye a convincing case that EICHEL would get 20 more points playing w/ Sam over VO would consider it) but rather to optimize the team's ES NET goals for.  Really don't expect Eichel & Hall's production will be significantly effected regardless of the winger provided it isn't putting somebody like Okposo out there w/ them provided they are together, so the idea is to maximize everybody else's output.

And again, expect having a sniper w/ 2 playmakers optimizes 2 guys (& possibly Staal as well) but putting 3 playmakers together and 2 scorers only optimizes 1 guy.  My 2 cents.

Your position is well stated and reasoned. However, I'm taking the same position that Rob Ray is taking. My preference is that Sam stays on the first line with Jack. With a line made up of Hall/Jack/Sam it would not be unfair to believe that it would be top tier first line. And it would also be one of the most exciting lines to watch in the league. 

[sweetlou]

I don't mind Sam playing on the top PP unit with Jack and Hall but I want to see what Sam can do on a line with out Jack.  Jack and Hall have great speed and want the puck on their sticks as they enter the zone.  They need someone who can play big in the corners and has a good shot to finish around the net.  I agree with Rivet in that I want to see what Thompson can do on the top line to start the year..  He is signed for the next three years and can't demand a huge salary if he performs well with Jack and Hall. It also gives us a chance to see who he really is as a player.  If he succeeds then we know if if the Sabres decide to move on from Sam the Sabres have a player that can play on the top line.  If Thompson does not mesh and fit well then we can always move Sam up later in the year. 

My lines to start the year...

Hall- Eichel- Thompson

Skinner- Stall- Reinhart

Olofson- Eakins- Cozens

Girgs- Lazar- Rieder

 

[Zamboni]

Watch Eichel and Hall have terrible chemistry together and make most Sabres heads explode with frustration and RK is forced to break them up 😂

Edited October 29, 2020 by Zamboni

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Watch Eichel and Hall have terrible chemistry together and make most Sabres heads explode with frustration and RK is forced to break them up 😂

Crosby was notorious for this, but Jack seems pretty amendable to playing with most types of players, from what we've seen. Maybe cause Sid is basically the greatest grinder of all time but often at the Olypmics they'd struggle to find players that fit. 

Maybe it's cause Jack can play at high speed but also singlehandedly slow the game down with the puck on his stick, as well. He can account for the tempo others want to play at.  

Edited October 29, 2020 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

. He's more of a relative goal scorer than Eichel is - Eichel's truest nature is passing the puck, as good as his shot is. 

Eichel's shot is indeed very good, and I think perhaps he has passed more and shot less because of who he has played with and because of the defensive coverage he has gotten. Hall I think will draw defenders away from Jack and he will use his shot a lot more and have his highest goal totals yet. 

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Crosby was notorious for this, but Jack seems pretty amendable to playing with most types of players, from what we've seen. Maybe cause Sid is basically the greatest grinder of all time but often at the Olypmics they'd struggle to find players that fit. 

Perhaps surprisingly, Marchand fit perfectly with him didn't he? 

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Eichel's shot is indeed very good, and I think perhaps he has passed more and shot less because of who he has played with and because of the defensive coverage he has gotten. Hall I think will draw defenders away from Jack and he will use his shot a lot more and have his highest goal totals yet. 

Perhaps surprisingly, Marchand fit perfectly with him didn't he? 

I think Marchand did but he's a good example of a guy who gets gritty in the corners as well. 

[SwampD]

12 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Watch Eichel and Hall have terrible chemistry together and make most Sabres heads explode with frustration and RK is forced to break them up 😂

Eichel and Hall will be some of the best Sabres hockey we have ever witnessed.

[Zamboni]

2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Eichel and Hall will be some of the best Sabres hockey we have ever witnessed.

I hope you’re right... SOME of the best would be a nice change.

[Thorner]

It's LaFontaine Mogilny esque in theory. 

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

This issue of who should be the third person on the Jack and Hall line (presumptive line mates) was discussed on WGR's the Instigator Show with Rob Ray and Craig Rivet. Ray argued forcefully that he felt that it was a more effective line with Reinhart on that line because he believed that he was the more complementary player to those two more dynamic players than another player such as Olofsson or another finisher. I agree with his reasoning. 

Rob Ray also pointed out that with Reinhart on the first line with Jack and Hall that his scoring would be at least 20 points higher than if he played on the Staal line. One can argue over how much more effective Reinhart would be from a scoring standpoint if he were on the first line but it is a reasonable expectation that he would score much more on the Jack line.

I'm a ardent supporter of Reinhart. The issue isn't whether he could also play on the second line and make it a better line to balance out the more potent first line. The answer to that question is certainly yes. The bigger issue for me is whether Sam better balances the first line and whether he is demonstrably more productive on that line. I say yes to both issues. 

I'm not saying that the people who would want Sam on the second line are wrong because there is merit to that stance. However, I strongly agree with Rob Ray's position that Sam should be on the Jack line with Hall. 

 

 

I don't think there's any doubt EIchel Hall Reinhart would be the best line the Sabres could possibly put together. If Jack and Taylor have chemistry, I suspect it might be the best line in the NHL.

The thing is, Eichel Hall and Olofsson should also be an elite line, but I suspect Staal, Skinner and Olofsson would not be the sum of its parts.

It's a question of if the benefits of Sam on the first line outweigh the benefits of him on the second.

 

To put numbers on it:

Hall Eichel Reinhart = 100

Hall Eichel Olofsson = 90

Skinner Staal Reinhart = 80

Skinner Staal Olofsson = 55

 

Just my opinion of course. It will be interesting to see what Ralph tries, what he settles with and what works.

Half our forwards (Hall, Staal, Eakin, Thompson, Cozens, Reider) will be new this year.

Edited October 29, 2020 by dudacek