VO trade value?

[Curt]

20 minutes ago, Weave said:

Powerplay specialist is sort of a pseudo slur for a player that doesn't have much of a 200' game.  In that context I think it fits here.

I don’t think he is too bad defensively, probably a little below average.

The thing is that while Olofsson has an elite shot, it is literally his only above average skill.  The shot allows him to play on a top 6 scoring line with players who can maximize him, but even then he isn’t especially good at ES, and if he is anything more than your 5th or 6th best forward, your team probably isn’t good.

On the PP though he is very valuable because that shot is something the other team needs to constantly guard against at the risk of an automatic goal against.

The PP goals matter, but must be looked at separately from his ES play.

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t think he is too bad defensively, probably a little below average.

The thing is that while Olofsson has an elite shot, it is literally his only above average skill.  The shot allows him to play on a top 6 scoring line with players who can maximize him, but even then he isn’t especially good at ES, and if he is anything more than your 5th or 6th best forward, your team probably isn’t good.

On the PP though he is very valuable because that shot is something the other team needs to constantly guard against at the risk of an automatic goal against.

The PP goals matter, but must be looked at separately from his ES play.

The true benefit of having a franchise C - the conversion of non-well rounded players into viable first line talents. Making players "better" in the truest sense. He masks his flaws and highlights his strengths in an active sense. 

[Thorner]

And in my opinion it unlocks the ability to play Reinhart on a lower line. Jack allows for some balance of talent.

To my mind if Hall is the Hall we hope/expect, him, Eichel, AND Sam on one line is almost redundant (considering the value Eichel brings out in VO), except in crucial circumstances. We have the ability to spread a bit of that talent away from what will no doubt be the top defensive match-ups of the opponents every night. 

I don't know that Olofsson would capitalize on that advantage on line 2, certainly not to the extent I'd expect Sam to.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

And in my opinion it unlocks the ability to play Reinhart on a lower line. Jack allows for some balance of talent.

To my mind if Hall is the Hall we hope/expect, him, Eichel, AND Sam on one line is almost redundant (considering the value Eichel brings out in VO), except in crucial circumstances. We have the ability to spread a bit of that talent away from what will no doubt be the top defensive match-ups of the opponents every night.

I don't know that Olofsson would capitalize on that advantage on line 2, certainly not to the extent I'd expect Sam to.

And he certainly wouldn't be able to capitalize on it to the same extent on the 3rd line.

[dudacek]

You also have to consider chemistry as well: VO probably couldn’t ask for two better linemates than Jack and Taylor to play with to create space and get him the puck in prime scoring position.

Sam, meanwhile, is a far better facilitator in terms of getting pucks to his linemates, which makes him a far better fit than Victor is with Eric and Jeff.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You also have to consider chemistry as well: VO probably couldn’t ask for two better linemates than Jack and Taylor to play with to create space and get him the puck in prime scoring position.

Sam, meanwhile, is a far better facilitator in terms of getting pucks to his linemates, which makes him a far better fit than Victor is with Eric and Jeff.

Precisely. 

[dudacek]

Here’s one that might be tough to swallow for those locked into having a heirarchy of lines:

Stylistically, Cody Eakin is very good fit for Jeff Skinner. He’s fast, defensively responsible, offensively OK and generally thrives on chaos.

Also, Thompson, Staal and Cozens is pretty tantalizing mix of size, power and skill, both off the rush and in the offensive zone. It’s not hard to imagine the young wingers following Staal around like puppies for his nuggets of wisdom and the old vet being charged up by their skill and enthusiasm.

Hall Eichel Olofsson

Skinner Eakin Reinhart

Thompson Staal Cozens

Reider Girgensons Lazar Okposo

[The Jokeman]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Here’s one that might be tough to swallow for those locked into having a heirarchy of lines:

Stylistically, Cody Eakin is very good fit for Jeff Skinner. He’s fast, defensively responsible, offensively OK and generally thrives on chaos.

Also, Thompson, Staal and Cozens is pretty tantalizing mix of size, power and skill, both off the rush and in the offensive zone. It’s not hard to imagine the young wingers following Staal around like puppies for his nuggets of wisdom and the old vet being charged up by their skill and enthusiasm.

Hall Eichel Olofsson

Skinner Eakin Reinhart

Thompson Staal Cozens

Reider Girgensons Lazar Okposo

I can't see Staal accepting a role on the 3rd line and Eakin on the 2nd line? No on so many levels.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I can't see Staal accepting a role on the 3rd line and Eakin on the 2nd line? No on so many levels.

Like I said, people who think of hockey as a heirarchy of lines will have trouble with it.

I know our coach preaches against numbered lines, so I doubt that kind of thinking would get in his way. I have no idea if Staal’s nose would get out of joint or not.

If both lines are getting equal time at even strength and Staal is playing on the PP, what hockey reasons make this a bad idea?

Edited October 28, 2020 by dudacek

[The Jokeman]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Like I said, people who think of hockey as a heirarchy of lines will have trouble with it.

I know our coach preaches against numbered lines, so I doubt that kind of thinking would get in his way. I have no idea if Staal’s nose would get out of joint or not.

If both lines are getting equal time at even strength and Staal is playing on the PP, what hockey reasons make this a bad idea?

Forcing Staal on a line with unproven talent is a waste of his talent. Eaken's career high is 21 assists, sorry that isn't going to help Skinner get to 25 plus goals.

[Taro T]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Here’s one that might be tough to swallow for those locked into having a heirarchy of lines:

Stylistically, Cody Eakin is very good fit for Jeff Skinner. He’s fast, defensively responsible, offensively OK and generally thrives on chaos.

Also, Thompson, Staal and Cozens is pretty tantalizing mix of size, power and skill, both off the rush and in the offensive zone. It’s not hard to imagine the young wingers following Staal around like puppies for his nuggets of wisdom and the old vet being charged up by their skill and enthusiasm.

Hall Eichel Olofsson

Skinner Eakin Reinhart

Thompson Staal Cozens

Reider Girgensons Lazar Okposo

On opening night, not a chance.  Around what would be Christmas in a regular regular season, it could work if Thompson & Cozens progress well.

[LGR4GM]

Staal with Cozens makes a lot of sense if they want Cozens to learn center. Outside of that, idk what we'll see. 

[Pimlach]

Good stuff in this thread.   You guys know some hockey stuff. 
 

Finally, we have forward talent to get excited about.   Now that really depends on if Staal still has legs, Cozens and Tage are truly ready, VO improves his overall game, and Eakin plays like he did in Vegas.  

Jack, Sam, Hall and even Skinner -  we know what we have.   I’m past ready to start camp. 

[Getpucksdeep]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

On opening night, not a chance.  Around what would be Christmas in a regular regular season, it could work if Thompson & Cozens progress well.

And if Stall is showing his age. I feel like on the whole the fanbase's expectations are too high for him.  I mean they took Johansson straight up. J is a nice player but was borderline top 6. Seems to me that means Staal is borderline top 6 now as well, but brings us leadership.  J brings them upside and its a win/win re culture change objectives.

[Curt]

15 minutes ago, Getpucksdeep said:

And if Stall is showing his age. I feel like on the whole the fanbase's expectations are too high for him.  I mean they took Johansson straight up. J is a nice player but was borderline top 6. Seems to me that means Staal is borderline top 6 now as well, but brings us leadership.  J brings them upside and its a win/win re culture change objectives.

Big fat Nope.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Here’s one that might be tough to swallow for those locked into having a heirarchy of lines:

Stylistically, Cody Eakin is very good fit for Jeff Skinner. He’s fast, defensively responsible, offensively OK and generally thrives on chaos.

Also, Thompson, Staal and Cozens is pretty tantalizing mix of size, power and skill, both off the rush and in the offensive zone. It’s not hard to imagine the young wingers following Staal around like puppies for his nuggets of wisdom and the old vet being charged up by their skill and enthusiasm.

Hall Eichel Olofsson

Skinner Eakin Reinhart

Thompson Staal Cozens

Reider Girgensons Lazar Okposo

Oooo I really like this. 

[Thorner]

The "Depth Chart"                                                                              

Hall - Eichel - Reinhart

Skinner - Staal - Olofsson

Thompson - Eakin - Cozens

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

The "Finkle and Einhorn two line threat"

Hall - Eichel - Olofsson

Skinner - Staal - Reinhart

Thompson - Eakin - Cozens

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

(Ask for the above 2 line-ups to be "Supersized" if you want hamburger- munching Lazar on line 3 like Taro)

(For the "Jeff is Jealous" expansion pack switch Taylor and Jeff)

 

The "Vegas Golden Sabres"

Hall - Eichel - Olofsson

Skinner - Staal - Cozens

Thompson - Eakin - Reinhart

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

The "(If Eakin is actually good) Roll 4 Lines"

Hall - Eichel - Olofsson

Skinner - Eakin - Reinhart

Thompson - Staal - Cozens

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Like I said, people who think of hockey as a heirarchy of lines will have trouble with it.

I know our coach preaches against numbered lines, so I doubt that kind of thinking would get in his way. I have no idea if Staal’s nose would get out of joint or not.

If both lines are getting equal time at even strength and Staal is playing on the PP, what hockey reasons make this a bad idea?

The problem I have with your non-hierarchy of lines is that I don't believe that this ideal notion exists in reality. The top two lines are inevitably going to get more minutes than the lower (applicable to the third line in this discussion.) lines. I'm aware that Krueger constantly proclaims that he doesn't number his lines. But when the minutes are tabulated the top two lines do get the most minutes. And it should get the most minutes because your best forwards are on those lines. 

Because of the offseason acquisitions (Staal and Hall) the staff not only has enough top two line players to fill those lines but enough quality players to put together a good third line. Eakins should be the center on the line with Cozens on one of the wings. 

The training camp and practice games will be used to determine who the wingers will be on the three lines which already have their assigned centers in Jack/Staal/ Eakins. There are some people who are advocating to have Reinhart center the third line. I'm not one of them. If he is not playing on the wing in one of the top two lines (my preference on the first line with Hall and Jack) his talents will be wasted. 

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

Powerplay specialist is sort of a pseudo slur for a player that doesn't have much of a 200' game.  In that context I think it fits here.

I just want to be clear here that we’re talking about the #6 guy on our depth chart. 

Other #6s in the division include ~ Kerfoot, Drouin, Craig Smith, Hinostrozza, Anisimov, Namestnikov and Killorn.

Not exactly a murderers row.

1 hour ago, The Jokeman said:

Forcing Staal on a line with unproven talent is a waste of his talent. Eaken's career high is 21 assists, sorry that isn't going to help Skinner get to 25 plus goals.

Fair point.

That said, Tuch had 20 and Pacioretty 22 in just 66 games with Eakin as their centre two years ago.

Jonathan Toews had a pretty damn good year with rookie Kubalik last year. Maybe we should see how good the unproven talent is before we dismiss it.

 

1 hour ago, Getpucksdeep said:

And if Stall is showing his age. I feel like on the whole the fanbase's expectations are too high for him.  I mean they took Johansson straight up. J is a nice player but was borderline top 6. Seems to me that means Staal is borderline top 6 now as well, but brings us leadership.  J brings them upside and its a win/win re culture change objectives.

This is an interesting one, because at his age Staal could fall off the edge at any time. 

That said, he had 52 points two years ago and was pacing for 59 over a full season this year. 
He got five points in 4 play-in games this summer after 15 in his last 21 regular season games.
He never gets hurt and his analytics looked really strong.

I guess what I’m saying is, he hasn’t shown the signs.

44 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The "Depth Chart"                                                                              

Hall - Eichel - Reinhart

Skinner - Staal - Olofsson

Thompson - Eakin - Cozens

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

The "Finkle and Einhorn two line threat"

Hall - Eichel - Olofsson

Skinner - Staal - Reinhart

Thompson - Eakin - Cozens

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

(Ask for the above 2 line-ups to be "Supersized" if you want hamburger- munching Lazar on line 3 like Taro)

(For the "Jeff is Jealous" expansion pack switch Taylor and Jeff)

 

The "Vegas Golden Sabres"

Hall - Eichel - Olofsson

Skinner - Staal - Cozens

Thompson - Eakin - Reinhart

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

The "(If Eakin is actually good) Roll 4 Lines"

Hall - Eichel - Olofsson

Skinner - Eakin - Reinhart

Thompson - Staal - Cozens

Girgensons - Lazar - Okposo

 

It’s been a long time since juggling the lines was actually fun.

Now try Finisher/Driver/Responsible guy on each line.

Edited October 28, 2020 by dudacek

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The problem I have with your non-hierarchy of lines is that I don't believe that this ideal notion exists in reality. The top two lines are inevitably going to get more minutes than the lower (applicable to the third line in this discussion.) lines. I'm aware that Krueger constantly proclaims that he doesn't number his lines. But when the minutes are tabulated the top two lines do get the most minutes. And it should get the most minutes because your best forwards are on those lines. 

Because of the offseason acquisitions (Staal and Hall) the staff not only has enough top two line players to fill those lines but enough quality players to put together a good third line. Eakins should be the center on the line with Cozens on one of the wings. 

The training camp and practice games will be used to determine who the wingers will be on the three lines which already have their assigned centers in Jack/Staal/ Eakins. There are some people who are advocating to have Reinhart center the third line. I'm not one of them. If he is not playing on the wing in one of the top two lines (my preference on the first line with Hall and Jack) his talents will be wasted. 

Of course last year the 2nd line, in terms of ES use was the “4th” line, the Larsson line, no?

And the guys sitting out when we went to 3 lines changed regularly.

Edited October 28, 2020 by dudacek

[klos1963]

13 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Is there upside? Yes but it is minimal. He's the player he's going to be. 

Cozens isn't a rw for long and Quinn won't overtake him for at least 2 years. 

His PP skill and shot have value, I think though we should be concerned as he ages that other parts of his game will decline. That said I bet he has 2-4 years of prime production. I wouldn't trade him this year, but I am not yet sure I would protect him in the expansion draft either. 

His prime years may be done by the time he's 26-28 years old?

[GASabresIUFAN]

@dudacek, I think you're asking to much from Eakin.  He just not that good.  He is best as a 14-15 minute a night guy.  Staal can still play 17-18 a night.  Asking Eakin to carry that much of the load is putting him in a position to fail.

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@dudacek, I think you're asking to much from Eakin.  He just not that good.  He is best as a 14-15 minute a night guy.  Staal can still play 17-18 a night.  Asking Eakin to carry that much of the load is putting him in a position to fail.

If you’re talking about Eakin/Skinner/Reinhart, I’m basically asking Eakin to play 10-12 minutes a game at even strength and 3-4 on the PK. He’s done it his whole career.

I’m asking Staal for slightly more ES minutes, and 3-4 on the PP. Remember, lines don’t stick together all game. Staal isn’t sitting when we go to three lines. Both he and Sam will get more ice time than their linemates.

[Curt]

44 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The problem I have with your non-hierarchy of lines is that I don't believe that this ideal notion exists in reality. The top two lines are inevitably going to get more minutes than the lower (applicable to the third line in this discussion.) lines. I'm aware that Krueger constantly proclaims that he doesn't number his lines. But when the minutes are tabulated the top two lines do get the most minutes. And it should get the most minutes because your best forwards are on those lines. 

This hasn’t actually been the case though.  Last season the top line (Olofsson-Ike-Sam) got the most minutes by a wide margin, then the other 3 lines were extremely close in ice time,  often fluctuating a lot from game to game.  And it’s not unusual for the 2nd/3rd lines  of NHL teams to be very close in ice time.

With more talent, will Krueger try to stack the talent on 2 lines and follow suit with the ice time?  Will he try to spread the talent out and spread the ice time as well?  I don’t know and I’m not sure how you could know.  It’s kind of uncharted territory.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Curt

[PerreaultForever]

What a dilemma, possibly having too much talent on the roster. Personally I don't think it'll be an issue. Somebody will step up and somebody will disappoint and move down and it'll all shake out fine. Also not worried about who the Kraken takes. If we end up with surplus talent at that time, oh well, we lose one, we have a surplus...............

Adding Hall has certainly changed the conversation, but I have to hold back my excitement. Something always seems to go wrong but fingers crossed.