2020-'21 Sabres Prospects

[LGR4GM]

17 hours ago, chloewoj said:

my biggest problem with the mittelstadt pick is that the sabres watched him fail miserably at the combine. they watched his no pull up performance and they knew he finished in the bottom for virtually every test but they still selected him. makes no sense to me. 

Combine results I don't care about, I do care about why they happened. With any player, I don't care if they are in the top of stuff but I care if they can't seem to do anything and I care because that hints at a dedication problem. Everyone knows what the combine is and what to train and if you can't be bothered, that is a flag. Casey not being able to do a pullup, meh but (and I didn't think this way at the time) the fact he was miserable at all the stuff should have caused us to pause and wonder if he actually had the hardwork ability because Cozens and Quinn I know do. Mitts, year after year has shown he doesn't and that is why he stagnated. 

[bunomatic]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Combine results I don't care about, I do care about why they happened. With any player, I don't care if they are in the top of stuff but I care if they can't seem to do anything and I care because that hints at a dedication problem. Everyone knows what the combine is and what to train and if you can't be bothered, that is a flag. Casey not being able to do a pullup, meh but (and I didn't think this way at the time) the fact he was miserable at all the stuff should have caused us to pause and wonder if he actually had the hardwork ability because Cozens and Quinn I know do. Mitts, year after year has shown he doesn't and that is why he stagnated. 

Basically what I was trying to say upthread. You want the guys that want to kill those ‘useless’ tests and come out on top . What you don’t want are the guys that go through the motions. If you can recognize the good or bad traits in the kids at that point you’d better  use that knowledge to weed out the ones that will haunt you later. 

[Thorner]

27 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Combine results I don't care about, I do care about why they happened. With any player, I don't care if they are in the top of stuff but I care if they can't seem to do anything and I care because that hints at a dedication problem. Everyone knows what the combine is and what to train and if you can't be bothered, that is a flag. Casey not being able to do a pullup, meh but (and I didn't think this way at the time) the fact he was miserable at all the stuff should have caused us to pause and wonder if he actually had the hardwork ability because Cozens and Quinn I know do. Mitts, year after year has shown he doesn't and that is why he stagnated. 

 

16 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Basically what I was trying to say upthread. You want the guys that want to kill those ‘useless’ tests and come out on top . What you don’t want are the guys that go through the motions. If you can recognize the good or bad traits in the kids at that point you’d better  use that knowledge to weed out the ones that will haunt you later. 

Just compare Bennett and Mittelstadt. Both did zero, but Bennett was revealed to have had a shoulder injury, and he was posting about doing pull-ups afterwards, determined to show it was a hurdle he could overcome. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, bunomatic said:

Basically what I was trying to say upthread. You want the guys that want to kill those ‘useless’ tests and come out on top . What you don’t want are the guys that go through the motions. If you can recognize the good or bad traits in the kids at that point you’d better  use that knowledge to weed out the ones that will haunt you later. 

I don't need them to kill the useless test. I don't need them to even be good at it, but I need to know why they did what they did. If a guy is just kinda meh at the combine, that isn't a flag unto itself. Maybe they were sick or maybe they had an off day. But if a guy is meh at the combine and I talk to him and he doesn't have that drive, that fire, that will to be better, that is a major problem. Quinn is an interesting character study for this because up until 15 he was a 3 sport guy. He then started focusing on hockey and then started training his body. My concern is that these are excuses for why he suddenly popped in his draft year as what almost amounts to an overager. Now everything says that he's a hard worker but until I see him on NHL ice, I am will be cautiously optimistic. 

Mitts is the perfect example of a guy going only has far as his talent lets him. Until Mitts shows he is actually dedicated to being better over a long period of time, I don't have a lot of faith. He acts like a kid playing a sport and that's not what this is anymore. 

Basically I am saying a bad showing at the combine should be investigate not assumed to show a player is bad. Just like a good combine doesn't prove they are good. There are tons of guys who do great at the combine but can't hockey good. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't need them to kill the useless test. I don't need them to even be good at it, but I need to know why they did what they did. If a guy is just kinda meh at the combine, that isn't a flag unto itself. Maybe they were sick or maybe they had an off day. But if a guy is meh at the combine and I talk to him and he doesn't have that drive, that fire, that will to be better, that is a major problem. Quinn is an interesting character study for this because up until 15 he was a 3 sport guy. He then started focusing on hockey and then started training his body. My concern is that these are excuses for why he suddenly popped in his draft year as what almost amounts to an overager. Now everything says that he's a hard worker but until I see him on NHL ice, I am will be cautiously optimistic. 

Mitts is the perfect example of a guy going only has far as his talent lets him. Until Mitts shows he is actually dedicated to being better over a long period of time, I don't have a lot of faith. He acts like a kid playing a sport and that's not what this is anymore. 

Basically I am saying a bad showing at the combine should be investigate not assumed to show a player is bad. Just like a good combine doesn't prove they are good. There are tons of guys who do great at the combine but can't hockey good. 

Why do you keep saying this when his AHL coaches said that it isn't true.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't need them to kill the useless test. I don't need them to even be good at it, but I need to know why they did what they did. If a guy is just kinda meh at the combine, that isn't a flag unto itself. Maybe they were sick or maybe they had an off day. But if a guy is meh at the combine and I talk to him and he doesn't have that drive, that fire, that will to be better, that is a major problem. Quinn is an interesting character study for this because up until 15 he was a 3 sport guy. He then started focusing on hockey and then started training his body. My concern is that these are excuses for why he suddenly popped in his draft year as what almost amounts to an overager. Now everything says that he's a hard worker but until I see him on NHL ice, I am will be cautiously optimistic. 

Mitts is the perfect example of a guy going only has far as his talent lets him. Until Mitts shows he is actually dedicated to being better over a long period of time, I don't have a lot of faith. He acts like a kid playing a sport and that's not what this is anymore. 

Basically I am saying a bad showing at the combine should be investigate not assumed to show a player is bad. Just like a good combine doesn't prove they are good. There are tons of guys who do great at the combine but can't hockey good. 

In general your characterization of Mitts's attitude of lassitude in his young career is a fair representation.  Has he changed? By some accounts once he underwent some adjustment time in Rochester he seemed to regain his confidence and steadily upgraded his play. Is it a reflection of him finally understanding what he needs to do to play as a professional? I'm not sure. If he comes into camp in impeccable shape and right from the start competes at a level that demonstrates that he is going to  fight for and earn a roster spot then I will be more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

This organization did him no favors by rushing him to the big league when he wasn't ready both physically and mentally. If he comes into camp and demonstrates a greater degree of purpose whether he makes the NHL roster or is sent to Rochester for further development then I will give him the benefit of the doubt. As of now I'm not counting on him but I haven't closed the door on his prospects. 

[Andrew Amerk]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why do you keep saying this when his AHL coaches said that it isn't true.

What AHL coaches said this?

[GASabresIUFAN]

55 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

What AHL coaches said this?

Chris Taylor and Sexton repeatedly.  Here is one from Sexton. https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/buffalo-sabres-instigators-randy-sexton-jacob-bryson-will-borgen/c-317136434?fbclid=IwAR0VQUPmtNs1a9_wCZ2o-MPn4Pzm-LOJlaU-nMiyPfG-Sy7euM8GnlIp1jw

Quote

 

Sexton recalled being encouraged by Mittelstadt's conversation with coach Chris Taylor upon joining the Amerks. 

"In his very first meeting with Chris Taylor in Rochester, he said, 'Tayls, what do I need to do to become an everyday player in the NHL?'" Sexton recalled. "So, they talked about it and Casey deserves a lot of credit because he came to Rochester with an open mind and a great attitude."

Sexton said Mittelstadt's to-do list encompassed details away from the puck that are necessary in a defensively responsible player at the NHL level. 

"It didn't come right away," he said. "He's used to having the puck on his stick all the time and at the pro level you don't always have that. But then what we saw in the latter games was he had woven that defensive responsibility into his game and then once his confidence came back we started to see the quality of puck play and offensive generating that we saw when he was so dynamic at the World Juniors when they were in Buffalo."

 

This is from Taylor https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/sabres-prospects-preparing-in-case-amerks-season-resumes/article_007fe98b-187d-5f92-aba7-65bc6f822fc2.html

Quote

"Things didn’t come easy for him and I felt as he played more games he became a bigger part of our team in every aspect: power play, penalty kill, 5 on 5, 4 on 4," Taylor said of Mittelstadt. "He wanted to be out there. He was becoming a leader."

From the Athletic https://theathletic.com/1643928/2020/02/29/as-sabres-postseason-hopes-dwindle-casey-mittelstadt-eyes-playoff-run-in-rochester/

Quote

 

“He wants to be a guy that’s on the ice and in every situation, not just offensively. He wants to be on the ice in defensive situations,” Americans head coach Chris Taylor said. “He’s becoming a guy that we can count on for penalty killing (and the) last minute of a game for a face off.

“He’s not just waiting to be told, ‘Hey, you’re going out there.’ He’s standing up ready to take charge and that’s what you want.”

It’s always the cumulative stats that we’ll all look at to judge how a player is doing in the minors. Mittelstadt’s 22 points in 31 games won’t grab anyone’s immediate attention, but he wasn’t sent to Rochester to be a savior. He was sent to get his game into gear and that’s what’s happened of late.

(NOTE: he also had 7 pts in his last 9 games)

Bottomline. Casey went down to Roch with a good attitude, took some time to adjust and as the season went along Taylor trusted him in all situations, then the offense started to flow and he became a leader for the Amerks.  Sounds like a guy who is figuring it out and quickly. What more do people want!

Edited October 22, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why do you keep saying this when his AHL coaches said that it isn't true.

You need to re-read what I wrote. 

Quote

Until Mitts shows he is actually dedicated to being better over a long period of time, I don't have a lot of faith.

That is the key sentence. I have no doubt Mitts came to Rochester and was trying for the 36 games he was there. He was motivated because he just got a demotion but how long will that last? Did it last into this long offseason? Has he been working hard to get a man body and improve his skating? So no, his AHL coaches did not say what I said wasn't true because I am looking at will Mitts over more than a 36 game stretch be dedicated to being a better player. I also didn't say he couldn't I just want to see it. He's been a stagnant player for almost 3 years, so sorta kinda playing good in the AHL for 36 games doesn't really do a lot for me. Let's see what he looks like in camp. 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Chris Taylor and Sexton repeatedly.  Here is one from Sexton. https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/buffalo-sabres-instigators-randy-sexton-jacob-bryson-will-borgen/c-317136434?fbclid=IwAR0VQUPmtNs1a9_wCZ2o-MPn4Pzm-LOJlaU-nMiyPfG-Sy7euM8GnlIp1jw

This is from Taylor https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/sabres-prospects-preparing-in-case-amerks-season-resumes/article_007fe98b-187d-5f92-aba7-65bc6f822fc2.html

From the Athletic https://theathletic.com/1643928/2020/02/29/as-sabres-postseason-hopes-dwindle-casey-mittelstadt-eyes-playoff-run-in-rochester/

Bottomline. Casey went down to Roch with a good attitude, took some time to adjust and as the season went along Taylor trusted him in all situations, then the offense started to flow and he became a leader for the Amerks.  Sounds like a guy who is figuring it out and quickly. What more do people want!

Sounds like a guy who went to the Amerks and has a lot more work to do. I don't care if he is a team leader, I really don't. Great, he wanted to be in the game, but is he doing the things off the ice that will actually get him better and will he do those consistently. So what more do I want? I want consistency over time and I want to see how much work he put in when he wasn't under the watchful eyes of pro level coaches. 

Further, NOTHING you put here refutes what I said. You find an interview with Mitts talking about all the work he put in this offseason to improve his strength and foot speed and I will be very interested. 

[LGR4GM]

Since many of you complain about prospect rankings, here you go. The best players under 23. 

2, 26, 80 (we didn't draft), 85, 97, 110 (didn't draft), 132, 

That's it. 7 players under 23 and 2 we didn't draft who are on the top 155 list. We have 5 players from the last 4 drafts that made the list and only 1 of those guys is from outside the 1st round, JJ Peterka. It is nice to see that Buffalo got potentially 2 players in this past draft but that will need to be a pattern for several years. 

https://theathletic.com/2132927/2020/10/22/ranking-the-best-nhl-players-under-23-corey-pronmans-top-155/

Edited October 22, 2020 by LGR4GM

[tom webster]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Since many of you complain about prospect rankings, here you go. The best players under 23. 

2, 26, 80 (we didn't draft), 85, 97, 110 (didn't draft), 132, 

That's it. 7 players under 23 and 2 we didn't draft who are on the top 155 list. We have 5 players from the last 4 drafts that made the list and only 1 of those guys is from outside the 1st round, JJ Peterka. It is nice to see that Buffalo got potentially 2 players in this past draft but that will need to be a pattern for several years. 

https://theathletic.com/2132927/2020/10/22/ranking-the-best-nhl-players-under-23-corey-pronmans-top-155/

Since there are 31 teams you’d expect that each team would have around 5.

Add to the fact that Buffalo also has a bunch under 25 and has an elite level player at both center and defense, I’d say they are poised to make a run.

I believe they were in Corey’s top ten overall.

And again, we continue to talk about these people’s ratings as if they were a guide to the s Stanley Cup. Pronman still thinks Mitts is a high level prospect which I know we both are skeptical.

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Chris Taylor and Sexton repeatedly.  Here is one from Sexton. https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/buffalo-sabres-instigators-randy-sexton-jacob-bryson-will-borgen/c-317136434?fbclid=IwAR0VQUPmtNs1a9_wCZ2o-MPn4Pzm-LOJlaU-nMiyPfG-Sy7euM8GnlIp1jw

This is from Taylor https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/sabres-prospects-preparing-in-case-amerks-season-resumes/article_007fe98b-187d-5f92-aba7-65bc6f822fc2.html

From the Athletic https://theathletic.com/1643928/2020/02/29/as-sabres-postseason-hopes-dwindle-casey-mittelstadt-eyes-playoff-run-in-rochester/

Bottomline. Casey went down to Roch with a good attitude, took some time to adjust and as the season went along Taylor trusted him in all situations, then the offense started to flow and he became a leader for the Amerks.  Sounds like a guy who is figuring it out and quickly. What more do people want!

What I want to see from Mitts is he coming into camp in excellent shape and ready to compete for a roster spot. This extended offseason is important for him because it will demonstrate whether he can on his own initiative without the formal oversight of the organization prepare himself in a way that his talents are actualized. The issue that most commentators have with him is his compete level. That concern is what he needs to dispel.

He's still a young player who can mature and develop into an established NHL player. Although a lot of people have written him off I don't believe that Adams or Krueger have written him off. I still believe that the best way to handle him is to start him off in Rochester and give him a boatload of playing time in a variety of situations (which won't happen if he is on the Sabre roster)  that will better prepare him if and when he is called up. 

[jsb]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Bottomline. Casey went down to Roch with a good attitude, took some time to adjust and as the season went along Taylor trusted him in all situations, then the offense started to flow and he became a leader for the Amerks.  Sounds like a guy who is figuring it out and quickly. What more do people want!

Until he proves it in Buffalo, the Casey Hate will be strong on this site.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, tom webster said:

Since there are 31 teams you’d expect that each team would have around 5.

Add to the fact that Buffalo also has a bunch under 25 and has an elite level player at both center and defense, I’d say they are poised to make a run.

I believe they were in Corey’s top ten overall.

Moving the goal posts, again. Now it is not about prospects or young NHL players but about guys under 25. 25-28 is the prime of most players careers so, idk what we are doing here. Every time I point out the issue, you or GA moves the goalpost to some different standard as a counter point. Yea, the Sabres have a couple guys who are 24 and 25 that are really good, because they drafted 2nd overall to get them. Olofsson being the loan exception. That doesn't mean the Sabres draft well or have a good PROSPECT pool. 

Dahlin BTW is on that list at #2. 

And no, I would expect a team that has drafted 8th and 38th or better every year for the last 5 years to have more than 5 decent NHL players under 23. That means at the very best, Buffalo is average at drafting. Meanwhile I think Carolina had 8 guys in the list and Aho misses the cutoff by 3 months otherwise they would have 9. That is what Buffalo needs to aim for because 1.25 guys a draft isn't good enough. 

[tom webster]

One more point, while we didn’t draft two, the player we traded for one is on the list and the second is here because we traded three prospects to get ROR who we traded to get other prospect. History is much kinder to Sabre draft history then you are.

[tom webster]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Moving the goal posts, again. Now it is not about prospects or young NHL players but about guys under 25. 25-28 is the prime of most players careers so, idk what we are doing here. Every time I point out the issue, you or GA moves the goalpost to some different standard as a counter point. Yea, the Sabres have a couple guys who are 24 and 25 that are really good, because they drafted 2nd overall to get them. Olofsson being the loan exception. That doesn't mean the Sabres draft well or have a good PROSPECT pool. 

Dahlin BTW is on that list at #2. 

And no, I would expect a team that has drafted 8th and 38th or better every year for the last 5 years to have more than 5 decent NHL players under 23. That means at the very best, Buffalo is average at drafting. Meanwhile I think Carolina had 8 guys in the list and Aho misses the cutoff by 3 months otherwise they would have 9. That is what Buffalo needs to aim for because 1.25 guys a draft isn't good enough. 

I’m not moving the goalposts, you omit  facts that don’t fit your narrative, like the fact that they didn’t draft one guy but not saying that the guy he was traded for is on the list. We get it, they haven’t drafted guys you’ve wanted them to. I think the results are still incomplete for the last four years. In my opinion they are poised for a good run which runs contrary to your opinion that they have drafted poorly. In the end, that’s the only goal posts that matter.

Let’s do this long term. Let’s track these 155 guys for the next three years. How many will impact the NHL? Which team will have the best record improvement. Until the results are in, it’s all just an educated guess.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, tom webster said:

One more point, while we didn’t draft two, the player we traded for one is on the list and the second is here because we traded three prospects to get ROR who we traded to get other prospect. History is much kinder to Sabre draft history then you are.

Because WE did not draft them. That has been the entire point of what I am trying to tell ppl. We do not DRAFT well. It doesn't matter if we traded Nylander for Jokiharju (Nylander is on the list) because we should have drafted Sergachev. It doesn't matter we traded for Tage because we didn't draft him. It is things like this that have been constant over the last 4 years that are a major reason we are where we are. I hope the new Sabres have changed that a little, I think they did some interesting things at the draft but we need more than 1 draft to tell. 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, tom webster said:

I’m not moving the goalposts, you omit  facts that don’t fit your narrative, like the fact that they didn’t draft one guy but not saying that the guy he was traded for is on the list. We get it, they haven’t drafted guys you’ve wanted them to. I think the results are still incomplete for the last four years. In my opinion they are poised for a good run which runs contrary to your opinion that they have drafted poorly. In the end, that’s the only goal posts that matter.

Let’s do this long term. Let’s track these 155 guys for the next three years. How many will impact the NHL? Which team will have the best record improvement. Until the results are in, it’s all just an educated guess.

They didn't draft 2 guys. They traded 1 for 1, Jokiharju for Nylander. That trade should have never happened because Nylander should have been Sergachev. It goes back to the central theme. You want to just count players, straight up. We got x amount of players on this list and see we are good. GA does the same. The problem is and continues to be, the Buffalo Sabres do not draft for value. They make major mistakes and traded later does not take away from the fact, they do not draft well. My entire argument is the loss of value the Sabres exhibited for years in the draft by drafting poorly. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What I want to see from Mitts is he coming into camp in excellent shape and ready to compete for a roster spot. This extended offseason is important for him because it will demonstrate whether he can on his own initiative without the formal oversight of the organization prepare himself in a way that his talents are actualized. The issue that most commentators have with him is his compete level. That concern is what he needs to dispel.

He's still a young player who can mature and develop into an established NHL player. Although a lot of people have written him off I don't believe that Adams or Krueger have written him off. I still believe that the best way to handle him is to start him off in Rochester and give him a boatload of playing time in a variety of situations (which won't happen if he is on the Sabre roster)  that will better prepare him if and when he is called up. 

Sure they shouldn’t have rushed him to the NHL.  Some guys thrive others don’t. It’s why kids are waivers exempt so that GMs can move them up or down depending on their readiness of the NHL.  I think anyone who has written him off needs to study prospect history and look at the hundreds of prospect ls even those drafted in the top 10 who took years to develop.  Casey is 21, not 25.   Casey reminds me of Tim Connolly.

22 minutes ago, jsb said:

Until he proves it in Buffalo, the Casey Hate will be strong on this site.

The Casey hate is strong with the Force.  

Edited October 22, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[Curt]

14 minutes ago, tom webster said:

One more point, while we didn’t draft two, the player we traded for one is on the list and the second is here because we traded three prospects to get ROR who we traded to get other prospect. History is much kinder to Sabre draft history then you are.

Is it?  They have drafted very poorly for quite a long time, and the team has been a borderline laughingstock.  Where is the historical validation?  It’s not too hard to draft good players at #1 or #2 overall.

Botterill’s drafts still are kind of undecided.  They don’t look great though.

If Buffalo has drafted well, where are all of the 2-7 round picks who are NHL contributors?  How many are there over the past 10 years?

Edited October 22, 2020 by Curt

[LGR4GM]

It comes down to value. Your value is they got a guy, that is on this list. My value is did they get the right guy and time and time and time again the answer is no. 

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Sure they shouldn’t have rushed him to the NHL.  Some guys thrive others don’t. It’s why kids are waivers exempt so that GMs can move them up or down depending on their readiness of the NHL.  I think anyone who has written him off needs to study prospect history and look at the hundreds of prospect ls even those drafted in the top 10 who took years to develop.  Casey is 21, not 25.   Casey reminds me of Tim Connolly.

 

🍺

Edited October 22, 2020 by JohnC

[LGR4GM]

Perfect example, Dylan Cozens. That was the right value for where they took him. Casey Mitts, right value for where they took him. Ryan Johnson... holy ***** that was one of the dumbest things I have ever watched. 

JJ Peterka, I don't know if I would move up to get him because there would have been a player of value there at their pick but it cost basically nothing so that is okay. 

Nylander, terrible value when Sergachev was there

Quinn, I like Quinn but Rossi was a better value. This is the one that I worry about right now because Quinn will need to continue that trajectory he is on to eclipse 

Now that can change and all these could but right here today at this snapshot and if we look back the Sabres have not maximized the value of their draft picks. They have been actually fairly bad at it. It isn't just about the players under 23. We are talking about 28 picks from 2016-2019 and we are talking about what? maybe 4 or 5 players from all of that, sure that might be a league average but shouldn't we be striving to be better than league average? In 2020 we had only 5 picks and only 2 in the top 100. Both those players hit, that's a great draft. In 2019 we had 3 with a 4th pick at 102. Out of those, there is 1 guy that I think shakes out to an NHL player. Looking right now.... that draft should have 3 players Cozens, Robertson, Beaucage as potential NHL guys. It stuff like that that bothers me. 

[tom webster]

11 minutes ago, Curt said:

Is it?  They have drafted very poorly for quite a long time, and the team has been a borderline laughingstock.  Where is the historical validation?  It’s not too hard to draft good players at #1 or #2 overall.

Botterill’s drafts still are kind of undecided.  They don’t look great though.

If Buffalo has drafted well, where are all of the 2-7 round picks who are NHL contributors?  How many are there over the past 10 years?

2-7 don’t hit for anyone. They got VO, Toronto maybe hot Robertson. The only certainty with the NHL draft is the first two or three picks. After that depends on the year.

If the Sabre’s are a laughingstock it’s only because they traded ROR and didn’t develop Lehner. If the Lehner of the last two years was in nets and ROR was the 2nd center, this team is in the top ten overall and no one is talking about 2nd and 3rd round picks.