steveoath Posted December 24, 2020 Report Posted December 24, 2020 I dont really get why the GMs would be scared of offer sheeting though. What's their average shelf life? Worth risking it surely? 1
Stoner Posted December 24, 2020 Report Posted December 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Eleven said: It gets pinned every year for easy reference. It was created in October and hasn't been pinned. I believe pins are a thing of the past here, which I agree with. Allow threads to rise or fall based on merit. It should be easy enough to find.
DarthEbriate Posted December 24, 2020 Report Posted December 24, 2020 1 hour ago, LTS said: The offer sheet, while intriguing, comes with consequences. If you, as a GM, utilize this tool (I refuse to use the term "weapon") you risk alienating GMs as a group. Sure, perhaps you get your player, but when you begin reaching out to other GMs to make a trade you might find the responses to be a bit cool or the demands to be a bit high. There's also the obvious expectation that other GMs might offer sheet your team back in retaliation but I don't see that as being as big a deal. I think it holds a lot of allure for the fans but ultimately it pans out to be nothing. The players probably thought it was a great idea to help drive up contracts but in practice it clearly falls flat. Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right. (Just a lightsaber is a potential suicide-lobotomy-device if you're some unsupervised Youngling holding it upside down and looking at it...) Yes, it is a risky tool when doing trades/interacting with the GM inner circle. But one shrewd move like this can make your team a lot better quickly. It also is something that agents and players should be looking to use to get maximum dollar during the flat cap. From the Sabres perspective, Dahlin's cost should be lower next season based on the flat cap and what Sergachev signed for (4 years x 3.6M). That's laughable. So a team like Los Angeles next season should be ready to pounce on that. They've got high picks the past few years including Byfield. They've got Koptiar and Doughty on pricey contracts, but that's all. If Buffalo offers Dahlin in the 5M-area for a bridge with promises to give a pay raise on the next contract when the cap jumps back up.... then LA should definitely go 6.5M on a bridge (1st and 3rd for Dahlin --- hell yes that's easy to give up for him). Or even 7M (1st, 2nd, 3rd) --- make Buffalo really sweat it. Then, just lock Byfield up before he becomes available, and have a set price on all your other player --- so if someone comes for revenge and overpays for a guy, you take the picks and let them self-cripple their cap further. 1 hour ago, steveoath said: I dont really get why the GMs would be scared of offer sheeting though. What's their average shelf life? Worth risking it surely? Exactly. A GM either gets canned in just a few years with never another sniff, or they join the re-tread circuit and are employed in some capacity for a decade or more. It could be well worth it to take the shot.
LTS Posted December 24, 2020 Report Posted December 24, 2020 4 hours ago, DarthEbriate said: Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right. (Just a lightsaber is a potential suicide-lobotomy-device if you're some unsupervised Youngling holding it upside down and looking at it...) Yes, it is a risky tool when doing trades/interacting with the GM inner circle. But one shrewd move like this can make your team a lot better quickly. It also is something that agents and players should be looking to use to get maximum dollar during the flat cap. From the Sabres perspective, Dahlin's cost should be lower next season based on the flat cap and what Sergachev signed for (4 years x 3.6M). That's laughable. So a team like Los Angeles next season should be ready to pounce on that. They've got high picks the past few years including Byfield. They've got Koptiar and Doughty on pricey contracts, but that's all. If Buffalo offers Dahlin in the 5M-area for a bridge with promises to give a pay raise on the next contract when the cap jumps back up.... then LA should definitely go 6.5M on a bridge (1st and 3rd for Dahlin --- hell yes that's easy to give up for him). Or even 7M (1st, 2nd, 3rd) --- make Buffalo really sweat it. Then, just lock Byfield up before he becomes available, and have a set price on all your other player --- so if someone comes for revenge and overpays for a guy, you take the picks and let them self-cripple their cap further. Exactly. A GM either gets canned in just a few years with never another sniff, or they join the re-tread circuit and are employed in some capacity for a decade or more. It could be well worth it to take the shot. You could take it one step further. The owners get miffed and the same stone walling happens. GM shelf-life removed from the equation. Unless you are the Coyotes ownership doesn't change all that often. I get it.. I'd love to see it as well. I just don't think it will happen. 1
GASabresIUFAN Posted December 25, 2020 Report Posted December 25, 2020 On 12/23/2020 at 6:19 PM, dudacek said: Apparently by putting Kucherov on LTIR. Brisebois is about to sign Cirelli. 4.8 for Cirelli for 3 years is a huge bargain, but they still are over the cap even with LTIR.
Brawndo Posted December 25, 2020 Report Posted December 25, 2020 Marc Bergervin made a offer sheet to Aho from the Hurricanes. Bergy has had zero trouble making deals since then. I 3
Andrew Amerk Posted December 25, 2020 Report Posted December 25, 2020 1 hour ago, PASabreFan said: Very well. It's Christmas. It is or isn’t, depending on which time zone you’re in.
nfreeman Posted December 26, 2020 Report Posted December 26, 2020 On 12/24/2020 at 11:00 AM, steveoath said: I dont really get why the GMs would be scared of offer sheeting though. What's their average shelf life? Worth risking it surely? This is an interesting point. I think though GMs generally think a move like an offer sheet is more likely to shorten their careers than to lengthen them. 1
Thorner Posted December 26, 2020 Report Posted December 26, 2020 On 12/24/2020 at 9:16 PM, Brawndo said: Marc Bergervin made a offer sheet to Aho from the Hurricanes. Bergy has had zero trouble making deals since then. I Should be noted it was a weak arse offer sheet, though.
Brawndo Posted December 26, 2020 Report Posted December 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Thorny said: Should be noted it was a weak arse offer sheet, though. True, Carolina was not in any cap danger and 8.4 Million AAV is a good deal for a Top Line Center. That being said, Bergervin did potentially weaken a Eastern Conference Foe by having Aho sign a deal which buys zero UFA Years Aho will be in demand as a UFA at age 26 and will command a nice raise 1
LabattBlue Posted December 26, 2020 Report Posted December 26, 2020 So did I read this earlier, Kucherov can be put on LTIR to get them under the cap, but come playoff time, he can come back and play? If so, that’s a joke and the NHL needs to address that.
Brawndo Posted December 26, 2020 Report Posted December 26, 2020 Just now, LabattBlue said: So did I read this earlier, Kucherov can be put on LTIR to get them under the cap, but come playoff time, he can come back and play? If so, that’s a joke and the NHL needs to address that. Yes and yes they do 1
dudacek Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 33 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Good indicator of the power of contracts. Ottawa wouldnt take Tyler Johnson for free but will give up a 2nd for Derek Stepan, who has a bigger cap hit. But Stepan is owed $2 million in real money, while Johnson is owed nearly $18 million. Wonder if it affects Arizona’s desire to dump a goalie?
PerreaultForever Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 On 12/24/2020 at 8:00 AM, steveoath said: I dont really get why the GMs would be scared of offer sheeting though. What's their average shelf life? Worth risking it surely? idk but I think sometimes it's a pretty close community of sorts and you don't want to be "that guy" who everyone hates caused you screwed over that other guy. You never know where next job might end up being or who you might want to work for.
LGR4GM Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said: idk but I think sometimes it's a pretty close community of sorts and you don't want to be "that guy" who everyone hates caused you screwed over that other guy. You never know where next job might end up being or who you might want to work for. If you're an nhl gm worried about your next job, you should be fired.
Eleven Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 51 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: If you're an nhl gm worried about your next job, you should be fired. That's all 31 of them. 1
dudacek Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 (edited) Did you guys remember offer sheets used to be common? 26 of them between 1988 and 1998, including stars like Brendan Shanahan, Scott Stevens, Teemu Selanne, Sergei Federov and Joe Sakic. Since the 2006 lockout and current system there have been nine, only one of which (Dustin Penner) that wasn’t matched. Here’s what happened to the GMs that made them: Bobby Clarke signed Ryan Kesler in 2006. A few month later he was promoted to vice-president where he remains Kevin Lowe signed Thomas Vanek and then Dustin Penner in the summer of 2007. Lowe remained the Oilers GM for two more years, until he was promoted to president of hockey operations, a position he held for nine years before becoming the teams alternate governor, where he remains. Mike Gillis signed David Backes in the summer of 2008. He remained Canuck GM until he was fired in 2014. He has not worked in hockey since. Larry Pleau signed Steve Bernier (as revenge for the Backes offer sheet) in the summer of 2008. He was moved upstairs to VP two years later, and remains in the Blues front office. Doug Wilson signed Nick Hjalmarsson in 2010. He remains GM of the Sharks. Paul Holmgren signed Shea Theodore in 2012. Two years later, he was promoted to president, then he was eased into a senior advisor role with the Flyers last summer. Jay Feaster signed Ryan O’Reilly in February of 2013. The fact the Avs matched saved Feaster the embarrassment of having to place O’Reilly on waivers (https://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/hockey/opinion/2013/03/flames-oreilly-offer-sheet-a-big-mistake-all-around.html). Feaster was fired 10 months later and was quickly hired by Tampa in a community development role, where he remains. Marc Bergevin signed Sebastian Aho in the summer of 2019. Bergevin remains Montreal GM. While it is true not a single one of these guys ever GMed another NHL team, it doesn’t seemed to have hurt their employment chances. Six of the eight remain employed by the same teams, and seven of them moved into cushy retirement jobs. Fear of being blackballed should not be an offer sheet deterrent. Edited December 27, 2020 by dudacek 1
tom webster Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 All this talk about GM’s is fine and dandy but I’m here to tell you this is an ownership driven decision. Anyone that thinks any GM is free to make this decision without ownership approval is mistaken. Anyone that thinks that owners don’t engage in some form of collusion, is also mistaken. They want an occasional offer sheet to keep them out of court. They do not want any more then that. 2
Curt Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 33 minutes ago, dudacek said: Since the 2006 lockout and current system there have been nine, only one of which (Dustin Penner) that wasn’t matched. Here’s what happened to the GMs that made them: While it is true not a single one of these guys ever GMed another NHL team, it doesn’t seemed to have hurt their employment chances. Six of the eight remain employed by the same teams, and seven of them moved into cushy retirement jobs. Fear of being blackballed should not be an offer sheet deterrent. This is interesting but I don’t totally agree with your conclusion. It makes total sense that guys were not fired from their current organizations for offer sheeting other teams’ players. Why would they be? If anything, it may have helped their standing within their current organization. However, of the two guys who signed players to offer sheets, then were fired from their GM roles, neither of them went on to ever hold another high level NHL front office position, as of yet. My take away from what you presented was that if you do this, then can’t stick with your current organization, you may not be able to get another front office job somewhere else.
Curt Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 1 minute ago, tom webster said: All this talk about GM’s is fine and dandy but I’m here to tell you this is an ownership driven decision. Anyone that thinks any GM is free to make this decision without ownership approval is mistaken. Anyone that thinks that owners don’t engage in some form of collusion, is also mistaken. They want an occasional offer sheet to keep them out of court. They do not want any more then that. And also, this makes total sense. Something like this would require owner approval. As would any significant contract or trade, I would imagine.
dudacek Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 13 minutes ago, Curt said: This is interesting but I don’t totally agree with your conclusion. It makes total sense that guys were not fired from their current organizations for offer sheeting other teams’ players. Why would they be? If anything, it may have helped their standing within their current organization. However, of the two guys who signed players to offer sheets, then were fired from their GM roles, neither of them went on to ever hold another high level NHL front office position, as of yet. My take away from what you presented was that if you do this, then can’t stick with your current organization, you may not be able to get another front office job somewhere else. Because it happened to one guy? Noted arrogant maverick Mike Gillis? I can see a variation on your theme (and Tom’s) though - the guys that do it are very, very tight with ownership. 1
DarthEbriate Posted December 27, 2020 Report Posted December 27, 2020 19 minutes ago, tom webster said: All this talk about GM’s is fine and dandy but I’m here to tell you this is an ownership driven decision. Anyone that thinks any GM is free to make this decision without ownership approval is mistaken. Anyone that thinks that owners don’t engage in some form of collusion, is also mistaken. They want an occasional offer sheet to keep them out of court. They do not want any more then that. There is the owner perspective as well that an offer sheet (successful or unsuccessful) also drives up player costs overall for the league, which is bad. And it also reduces their low-cost draft assets. It's a lose-lose for the owners bottom line, unless it helps the team reach and win playoff games.
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