Sabres, 8th overall pick: Jack Quinn

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think this pick was very much about projection.

I think the Sabres believe Quinn Is a boy who has more room to grow than Rossi, who is physically already a man, and much farther along in his development curve.

And I think they believe he is a more likely to achieve his potential than Perfetti, who is slighter, slower and doesnt seem to drive himself as hard.

I’m not saying I agree, I’m just laying it out there for those struggling with the ‘why’

 

The Sabres don't believe the bolded, I'd argue everyone knows the bolded. 

Second bold, for sure. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Thorny

[LTS]

I'm not going back to pull it up.. but if I recall, Rossi had more points, but less goals.  Quinn had more goals then assists.

So, in one way, if you are looking for playmaker, Rossi could be your player.  But, if you are looking for a goal scorer, then it makes sense to not look at PPG, but GPG, right?

After all one aspect of Rossi's numbers has to be that someone else put the puck in the net.  Assists are important, but the Sabres need goal scorers. 

I just can't get bent over the choice.  The Sabres need goal scoring and the best goal scorer in the draft (according to "experts") was available.  

[Huckleberry]

 

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

My point was that he wasn't as bad as LGR would have had us believe when he entered the league and other good QBs have improve as much, only they did it not as the starter. The Mahomeses are the exception.

 

EDIT: I mean, unless you mean that the Bills having a good QB is the exception, then yes, Allen is the exception.

Say what about who now? Is this about Josh Allen? 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Is it too late to trade #8?

[Thorner]

Adams just said having Cozens factored into drafting Quinn, unless I misheard? 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorner]

The very first thing he said was "obviously when you are drafting you look at position" 

Absolutely need to put to rest the bpa idea for this team

The 2nd thing he said was that you look at who they'll be as a Sabre in the future

The 3rd thing he said was you look at who is on the current roster

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Say what about who now? Is this about Josh Allen? 

Okay, myself like lots of ppl was wrong about Josh Allen? 

Did that satisfy you or do you need a little more to be "satisfied" maybe a picture of me being whipped and saying I was wrong or something?

[WildCard]

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The very first thing he said was "obviously when you are drafting you look at position" 

Absolutely need to put to rest the bpa idea for this team

The 2nd thing he said was that you look at who they'll be as a Sabre in the future

The 3rd thing he said was you look at who is on the current roster

Thanks, I hate it

[Thorner]

Just now, WildCard said:

Thanks, I hate it

The reason I asked if I heard it right was because it left me flabbergasted. 

[dudacek]

Interesting Quinn write-up from OHL hockey blogger and scout for Mckeen’s hockey Brock Otten.

(it should be pointed out he had Quinn behind Perfetti and Rossi)

As stated, Quinn has seriously closed the gap for me between Rossi, Perfetti, and he. It wouldn't shock me at all if he was drafted before one or both. NHL scouts love this kid. IMO, Quinn was actually the better and more consistent OHL player in the second half for Ottawa, if we're comparing him to Rossi.

My write up for Quinn is going to focus a lot on those who downplay his abilities for various reasons. The first is his age. Yes, he only missed last year's draft by a few days. I don't care. Human development is non linear. Quinn was playing AA hockey and was well under 6'0 before his minor midget year. Physically, this kid is a late bloomer and is the exact reason why we have the September cutoff. That extra year has allowed him to fill out his growing frame (now over 6'0), and improve his overall athleticism and skating ability.

The second is the team he plays for. Quinn doesn't play with Rossi at even strength. He plays with Mitchell Hoelscher (a late round NHL draft pick), and either a converted defenseman (Belanger) or a rookie (Jack Beck). Yet, he led the OHL (with Nick Robertson) in even strength goals. He plays with Rossi on the powerplay, on the penalty kill, and when protecting a lead late. But he does not ride piggy back.

Quinn is terrific at creating his own scoring chances. He is such a deceptive player in transition. He has such a high level shot that defenders have to try to be aggressive in taking away his space, so he exploits that by cutting to the middle, using defenders as a screen. He is also exceptionally intelligent without the puck. His anticipation as a goal scorer is outstanding. And his play away from the puck as a defensive player improved by leaps and bounds this year. This kid has to be considered one of the most complete wingers available this year.

The third is the quality of the team he plays for. This is an easy one to refute. Maybe the 67's are as good as they are because of Quinn? Ottawa had more injuries than any team this year, and to key players, yet they found themselves on top because of kids like Quinn. Look, I won't pretend that Quinn's game doesn't have limitations. I don't necessarily think that he's a high level playmaker. He is great working the wall to prolong possession. However, in transition, he's usually very driven to score. And while his skating has improved a lot, it's still not elite. Likely equates to being slightly above average in the NHL.

However, IMO, it's rare to find such a quality goal scorer, who also happens to have good size and plays a 200 foot game. This is a kid you can have on the ice if you need a goal, or are up a goal. His minutes won't have to be sheltered. For that reason, he's a candidate for the top 7 IMO

Edited October 8, 2020 by dudacek

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

The very first thing he said was "obviously when you are drafting you look at position" 

Absolutely need to put to rest the bpa idea for this team

The 2nd thing he said was that you look at who they'll be as a Sabre in the future

The 3rd thing he said was you look at who is on the current roster

I haven’t watched this yet, still working my way around the media I missed, so Im not sure of the context.

But in his presser after the Quinn pick last night, Bill HopPe asked Adams “There were centres out there. Why did you guys feel you needed a winger?”

He replied “I don’t think we needed a winger, I think we were looking for the player we thought was going to be the best player we were projecting moving forward.”
 

Is he contradicting himself?

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/video/kevyn-adams-after-round-1/t-277437090/c-6792879

Edited October 8, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorner]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I haven’t watched this yet, still working my way around the media I missed, so Im not sure of the context.

But in his presser after the Quinn pick last night, Bill HopPe asked Adams “There were centres out there. Why did you guys feel you needed a winger?”

He replied “I don’t think we needed a winger, I think we were looking for the player we thought was going to be the best player we were projecting moving forward.”
 

Is he contradicting himself?

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/video/kevyn-adams-after-round-1/t-277437090/c-6792879

Ya - let me know what you think when you get around to it. 

The question posed is about, how the last time the Sabres drafted two RWs with their first two picks Gil Perreault was C, etc etc. He said - this must mean you are happy with your centres. 

Adams hesitated a bit about the centres, complimented the question, and proceeded to say something to the effect of, regarding those RW seleections, "we obviously look at position". Then mentioned a second thing about "what kind of Sabre we think they'll be" (again, touching on your idea about them focusing on potential growth analysis), and then thirdly listing the "current roster" as a factor. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Another interesting thing out of that presser is the Sabres had certain minimum metrics that a player would have to meet before they would consider drafting them, and those metrics became the starting point from where they would rank prospects.

Would love to hear what those are, but that will probably never happen.

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

The very first thing he said was "obviously when you are drafting you look at position" 

Absolutely need to put to rest the bpa idea for this team

The 2nd thing he said was that you look at who they'll be as a Sabre in the future

The 3rd thing he said was you look at who is on the current roster

I didn't come to the same conclusion you did, if you follow his answer though to the end.

I think the answer was a little confusing because he was responding to the suggestion implied by the question: that he didn't take a centre because he was happy with what he had. And I think he kinda chuckled because he's used to people saying he needs to fix centre, and he knows he needs to still replace Larsson.

And then he says of course you pay attention to positions BUT it's about how they project as Sabres down the road. And the LAST part of that is who else is on your roster. So we love Cozens and we want him to be a centre, but what don't know how long that will take to play out. And we love that Staal fills a big hole BUT "the winger/centre/D thing in the draft, you're really focused on the best player you can possibly take and what is their trajectory."

Other's mileage may vary.

[Thorner]

Yeaaaaaaaa he pretty clearly highlighted current roster and position as big considerations when drafting. It is what it is I think. 

I mean you certainly couldn't listen to that and say need isn't a concern at all when drafting. There's no way you can say the picks were strictly BPA - or what people mean when they say BPA (no regards to position, purely talent based). He's clearly including "position" as part of that trajectory - it has a lot to do with where they'll "end up". 

He contradicts himself a bit - I'd buy the argument that "best" would be his biggest determining factor but coming away thinking he's strictly "bpa" with no consideration for need is not a stance I see as having any reasonable footing, from all he has said. 

If someone says they look at position, current roster, and taking the best player and thinking about where they'll end up, all in the same answer, I think it's safe to say they were/are all factors. You can't just accept the one line you bolded and dismiss the rest - the only way it really makes sense is to put stock into his use of the word "really" before "really focused" - which here to me implies it's what he would call his biggest priority - I'd imagine talent is always the priority though, for everyone. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He pretty clearly acknowledged current roster and position as minor considerations when drafting that are subordinate to taking the guy who projects to become the best Sabre available.

I respect that you see it differently, but I just can't read the way he concluded his answer any other way.

Not the first or last time two people come to two different conclusions from hearing the same thing.

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I respect that you see it differently, but I just can't read the way he concluded his answer any other way.

Not the first or last time two people come to two different conclusions from hearing the same thing.

I mean you are just throwing in the word "minor", but ok lol. I'd say they are all considerations, with talent being the biggest. He mentioned position/roster twice - there's a good amount of "need" factoring in. 

Regardless, for the sake of argument, we can agree I think that there's enough "need" worked in such that you wouldn't consider a big "BPA" backer being opposed to his strategy, out-to-lunch for having such a stance?

I don't think this is a false narrative situation. There's a lot of evidence to suggest (see: facts, just listen to what he said) that need is a noteworthy consideration when he picks. No one is going to say "I pick need over talent". And we most often just hear, "Best player available". Adams really gave us a lot. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I mean you are just throwing in the word "minor", but ok lol. I'd say they are all considerations, with talent being the biggest. He mentioned position/roster twice - there's a good amount of "need" factoring in. 

Regardless, for the sake of argument, we can agree I think that there's enough "need" worked in such that you wouldn't consider a big "BPA" backer being opposed to his strategy, out-to-lunch for having such a stance?

I don't think this is a false narrative situation. There's a lot of evidence to suggest (see: facts, just listen to what he said) that need is a noteworthy consideration when he picks. No one is going to say "I pick need over talent". And we most often just hear, "Best player available". Adams really gave us a lot. 

I don't think you're paying enough attention to the actual question, which was "this pick must mean you must be happy with your centres"

It's a question that conflates both the roster -building process and the draft process. I think Adams was trying to say, of course he's cognizant of the roster, but at the same time when it come to drafting he wants the team to focus on the best talent, regardless of position. I mean, he literally said the last bit two nights in a row.

I know the pertinent thing for you is that he talked about roster building at all in this context. Personally, I think that happened because he was trying to respond politely to the question he was asked. For me, the pertinent question is whether or not Adams picked Quinn because of his position, even though he thought other players may have been better. To me, he very clearly denied that.

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don't think you're paying enough attention to the actual question, which was "this pick must mean you must be happy with your centres"

It's a question that conflates both the roster -building process and the draft process. I think Adams was trying to say, of course he's cognizant of the roster, but at the same time when it come to drafting he wants the team to focus on the best talent, regardless of position. I mean, he literally said the last bit two nights in a row.

I know the pertinent thing for you is that he talked about roster building at all in this context. Personally, I think that happened because he was trying to respond politely to the question he was asked. For me, the pertinent question is whether or not Adams picked Quinn because of his position, even though he thought other players may have been better. To me, he very clearly denied that.

Haha ya, definitely paid attention to the question, thanks. 

You hypothesized there a couple times what you think Adams was trying to get at, I'm kind of just accepting what he's saying, at face value. You've already stated you believe need was a factor (minor, in your interpretation) in his decision making process, correct, based on Adams comments, a bit up thread? My position is it should not be a factor at all. Well, aside from as a tie-breaker. I don't need to push the argument beyond that point - as I've never set out to prove need was his priority, merely that it's a factor. Any factor can be determinant depending on the values attributed to each in question in every different, unique case. 

Obviously I think it's much more of a factor than you do, but we are never going to agree on that. That I think Rossi was BPA over Quinn by a such a considerable amount is a big part of it, for me, as well. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[That Aud Smell]

I'm not sure if I tuned into Adams' presser live, or heard a tidbit replayed. But what he was saying at the time - I can't recall the precise words - made me think even MORE of the Pegulas' honing in on Allen. Something about an underdog who was doubted, bloomed late through hard work, has a still-rising trajectory, and has some terrific physical gifts.

Fingers crossed that the kid pans out as a top-6 fixture.

[North Buffalo]

I listened to Quinn's interview on the instigators... kid might be a hidden gem... late developer... smart multi sport athlete and only recently a gym rat but by all reports a beast... he appears to have drive and ability. Again with all these guys wtfks... Betting Adams views him on a late bloomer development curve a la Josh Allen hence the comparisons.  We shall see but from the interview I can see why Sabres liked him.

Edited October 8, 2020 by North Buffalo

[French Collection]

Not really relevant to talent but I have a friend in Cobden who knows the family. He says Jack is a good kid from a good family.

[JohnC]

21 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

I listened to Quinn's interview on the instigators... kid might be a hidden gem... late developer... smart multi sport athlete and only recently a gym rat but by all reports a beast... he appears to have drive and ability. Again with all these guys wtfks... Betting Adams views him on a late bloomer development curve a la Josh Allen hence the comparisons.  We shall see but from the interview I can see why Sabres liked him.

As you noted there are plenty of reasons to like Quinn. What seems to be lost by many people who have reservations about this prospect is that where he was selected by us was in the vicinity where he was ranked. So the pick was far from being a surprise. I have read reports that he was the best pure goal scorer in this draft. Even if that assessment is a bit of a stretch (I don't believe it is) then possessing that valuable trait for a team that lacks offense should be valued. 

I offer no criticisms for those who preferred Rossi or Perfetti. Their reasons for preferring those other players have merit. And, it shouldn't be surprising that both of those players went immediately after our selection. But the more that is learned about this mature kid reinforces my belief that this was an excellent selection. 

[That Aud Smell]

^

Several of the recent posts go to my point - stated here or elsewhere - that a crucial piece of getting a really good player is getting a guy who has that ability to really push and really grow his game. I'm not sure it's something that can be learned or taught. It probably can be. But, for some, I think it's actually beyond their capabilities. That is: They think they're doing it, but they're not. This kid sounds like someone who gets it.