OT: sports and politics - more nuance than we think

[Eleven]

41 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Does that make a difference in this?  I think not.

Evander Kane is Canadian and taking a leadership role in this protest.

People around the world are protesting.

Yes, it does make a difference.  What the NBA and MLB players did was player-driven, based upon their experiences and the experiences of their friends and family, in the US.  It's not reasonable to assume that NHL players in the bubbles, all of whom are without those experiences, would be able to drive a similar work stoppage.

Speaking of which, NBA players caved way too quickly.  Each team owner (especially the owner(s) of the Bucks) has enough connections to be able to get the Governor of Wisconsin on the phone and demand action before play resumes. Same goes for MLB owners (especially the owner(s) of the Brewers.  The players should have demanded that the owners do so before deciding to return.  Their work stoppage is considerably less important now.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Eleven

[Sabres Fan in NS]

4 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Yes, it does make a difference.  What the NBA and MLB players did was player-driven, based upon their experiences and the experiences of their friends and family, in the US.  It's not reasonable to assume that NHL players in the bubbles, all of whom are without those experiences, would be able to drive a similar work stoppage.

Speaking of which, NBA players caved way too quickly.  Each team owner (especially the owner(s) of the Bucks) has enough connections to be able to get the Governor of Wisconsin on the phone and demand action before play resumes. Same goes for MLB owners (especially the owner(s) of the Brewers.  The players should have demanded that the owners do so before deciding to return.  Their work stoppage is considerably less important now.

I apprecite all that, but Evander Kane played in a large US city as a black man.  I would think he has experienced Racism in that situation.  Maybe not in Winnipeg, since many Racists there target Indigenous People.  

I had not realized that the players are going back already.  That is a mistake.  Their protest should not have been about taking action to draw attention to the issue.  The issue is well known.  I agree, they should have stopped work to force some action on the part of powerful and rich owners no matter how long that took.

 

[Eleven]

19 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I apprecite all that, but Evander Kane played in a large US city as a black man.  I would think he has experienced Racism in that situation.  Maybe not in Winnipeg, since many Racists there target Indigenous People.  

I had not realized that the players are going back already.  That is a mistake.  Their protest should not have been about taking action to draw attention to the issue.  The issue is well known.  I agree, they should have stopped work to force some action on the part of powerful and rich owners no matter how long that took.

 

I have no problem with Kane or anyone else speaking up; I'm just saying that it's not a stain on the NHL that it held games yesterday.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

I have no problem with Kane or anyone else speaking up; I'm just saying that it's not a stain on the NHL that it held games yesterday.

Okay, but I disagree with you.  The time for the NHL to have done something was yesterday.  If no players had the balls to walk off like the NBA, MLB, football ... did, then the league should have done it.

[WildCard]

4 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Okay, but I disagree with you.  The time for the NHL to have done something was yesterday.  If no players had the balls to walk off like the NBA, MLB, football ... did, then the league should have done it.

Kinda hard for the league to cancel playoff games when they already have an insanely compressed schedule and a logistical nightmare from the pandemic. If you think the NBA or MLB wanted to cancel games yesterday/today then I have a bridge to sell you

Edited August 27, 2020 by WildCard

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

Kinda hard for the league to cancel playoff games when they already have an insanely compressed schedule and a logistical nightmare from the pandemic. If you think the NBA or MLB wanted to cancel games yesterday/today then I have a bridge to sell you

I know all that and agree, but the NHL basically caved to preasure today and did it.  They should have done it yesterday along with all the others.

[WildCard]

Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

I know all that and agree, but the NHL basically caved to preasure today and did it.  They should have done it yesterday along with all the others.

But why? The NBA and MLB only caved to the pressure because it existed for them yesterday, it didn't exist for the NHL today.

As far as handling things goes, out of the Big 4 the NHL has actually done the best at everything in the last pandemic months. I think it would have been a pretty weird/unnecessary move for them to cancel games yesterday; when was the last time that's ever happened in sports, suspending games for social issues? I can't fault them for not doing that given their current situation in the pandemic, how unprecedented/unpredictable it was that MLB and NBA did that, and that they weren't facing any internal pressure at the moment. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, WildCard said:

But why? The NBA and MLB only caved to the pressure because it existed for them yesterday, it didn't exist for the NHL today.

As far as handling things goes, out of the Big 4 the NHL has actually done the best at everything in the last pandemic months. I think it would have been a pretty weird/unnecessary move for them to cancel games yesterday; when was the last time that's ever happened in sports, suspending games for social issues? I can't fault them for not doing that given their current situation in the pandemic, how unprecedented/unpredictable it was that MLB and NBA did that, and that they weren't facing any internal pressure at the moment. 

*If you are not part of the solution; you are part of the problem*

They should have done it yesterday, because it was the right thing to do and the right time to do it.  Why are they doing it today?  Because it is the right thing to do and they got ***** tossed at them because they did not do it at the right time.  Nothing else matters.

[Eleven]

14 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Okay, but I disagree with you.  The time for the NHL to have done something was yesterday.  If no players had the balls to walk off like the NBA, MLB, football ... did, then the league should have done it.

 

9 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I know all that and agree, but the NHL basically caved to preasure today and did it.  They should have done it yesterday along with all the others.

But it wasn’t  the league that did it in the other instances.  It was the players.  

[WildCard]

Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

*If you are not part of the solution; you are part of the problem*

They should have done it yesterday, because it was the right thing to do and the right time to do it.  Why are they doing it today?  Because it is the right thing to do and they got ***** tossed at them because they did not do it at the right time.  Nothing else matters.

I mean along that line of thinking then every business globally should have shut down yesterday

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 minutes ago, WildCard said:

I mean along that line of thinking then every business globally should have shut down yesterday

It's largely a problem in the US, so maybe a nationwide employee walk out would be a good idea.  What could happen?  Is everybody goimng to get fired.

 

5 minutes ago, Eleven said:

 

But it wasn’t  the league that did it in the other instances.  It was the players.  

Yes.  That's why I said if no players had the balls to walk out then the league should have mandated it to show their support.  They have all these damn neon signs and crap just make a real statement.

[Eleven]

7 minutes ago, WildCard said:

I mean along that line of thinking then every business globally should have shut down yesterday

A general strike is something I support here.  It is no violent and forces action.  Again, look at Belarus.  The world is watching them.  And us. And even if it doesn’t work here or in Belarus, it has worked all across the golbe before.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Eleven

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

A general strike is something I support here.  It is no violent and forces action.  Again, look at Belarus.  The world is watching them.  And us. And even if it doesn’t work here or in Belarus, it has worked all across the golbe before.

General strike, sure. But the notion that a business can and should shut down operations for a day to support a social/political movement is wrong in my opinion. It is a logistical and public relations nightmare, condemning them for not doing such isn't fair

[In The Buff]

We can say the NHL should've done it yesterday & i'd agree. But i also think its good for people or entities to realize they made a mistake & take corrective action.

And thats what they did, albeit in this small way

[Ruff Around The Edges]

Just wanted to say goodbye everyone it was fun here while sports was fun, but the time has come to say goodbye and focus my money, energy and priorities on more important things. Sports was supposed to be an escape for all of us, and now they have clearly shown this is not the case. Before you jump the gun i am not a right wing extremist by any stretch of the imagination, Im a middle of the road thinker who believes in caring, love, peace and balance. Sports in general has clearly shown that they are not in the same lane. Therefore, I will find other things to take up my time.

I wish you all well and hope the Sabres give you one day what you all deserve a team to be proud of.

[kas23]

6 hours ago, Weave said:

Surely you can acknowledge that government sanctioned killings are quite a different issue than civilian killings, and government may actually listen when there is protests.  How does one reach individual citizens with this sort of protest?

Surely you’re not going to say the loss of life in one case is worse than another. A killing is a killing. However, in this case, we are talking about 113 homicides, in 9 months, in one city. Most were likely innocent people and none deserved to die. 
 

I don’t think protesting is going to reach individual people. Maybe that energy should be spent elsewhere. I do think that millionaires becoming more personally engaged in their community will. Many of these players came from the same urban blight. Even if that prevents 1 senseless murder, it’s better than walking out on a season. 

[PerreaultForever]

Isn't this really simpler? The NHL (mostly white and not American) they didn't even realize the NBA players (mostly black and American) were doing this outside of Wisconsin until pretty much game time and only after they saw how widespread it was they then decided we better get on this too. I don't really think there's any motives or agendas or anything other than it being an issue less immediate to most of the NHL players. Not to say they're not sympathetic or don't want justice etc. but like myself, an old white Canadian don't really feel or experience this every day and thus pretty much need people more directly affected to take the lead. 

It'll be kind of weird if the NBA is back playing while the NHL isn't. That might feel a little off. Personally don't think it makes any real difference if it's just a day or two of protest. Won't change a thing unless they all stay out and won't play until something is done. 

[Eleven]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Isn't this really simpler? The NHL (mostly white and not American) they didn't even realize the NBA players (mostly black and American) were doing this outside of Wisconsin until pretty much game time and only after they saw how widespread it was they then decided we better get on this too. I don't really think there's any motives or agendas or anything other than it being an issue less immediate to most of the NHL players. Not to say they're not sympathetic or don't want justice etc. but like myself, an old white Canadian don't really feel or experience this every day and thus pretty much need people more directly affected to take the lead. 

It'll be kind of weird if the NBA is back playing while the NHL isn't. That might feel a little off. Personally don't think it makes any real difference if it's just a day or two of protest. Won't change a thing unless they all stay out and won't play until something is done. 

Can  I just answer the first sentence?  Yes, it is that simple.  The rest of your post illuminates why it is that simple.  Thank you.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Eleven

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Just wanted to say goodbye everyone it was fun here while sports was fun, but the time has come to say goodbye and focus my money, energy and priorities on more important things. Sports was supposed to be an escape for all of us, and now they have clearly shown this is not the case. Before you jump the gun i am not a right wing extremist by any stretch of the imagination, Im a middle of the road thinker who believes in caring, love, peace and balance. Sports in general has clearly shown that they are not in the same lane. Therefore, I will find other things to take up my time.

I wish you all well and hope the Sabres give you one day what you all deserve a team to be proud of.

Sorry to see you go.

The issue is that sports are played by real people.  When those real people are affected by external events, then sports takes on a meaning more than entertainment.

This goes back to before 1936 Olympics in Berlin to Smith and Carlos in the 1968 Olympics past the opening ceremonies of the 2016 games.

Even when the game is being played, you can still feel external intrusions.  At the Red Army - Sabres game from 1980, there was a sign in Russian that said, "Better Dead than Red" and a second sign in Arabic that said, "God Is Great - Kill the Commies."  The best that you can do is put the external disturbances out of your mind as best you can when the game is being played.

Good luck to you.

[Randall Flagg]

22 hours ago, Eleven said:

That's why I said it seems inconsistent with your ethos.  But "stick to sports" is BS whether it's Chris Paul or Rex Ryan.  They have a platform and should use it, just like John Carlos and Tommy Smith did.  Do you complain when NHL coaches wear poppies every November?  No.

Problem is, when players raise a fist, people complain.  When players kneel, people complain.  When players have slogans on their jerseys, people complain.  So now they're taking it up a notch.  The power structure that controls how we police is made up of millionaires and billionaires.  So the players are hitting them where it hurts, finally.

Lmfao.

Every power structure in this country is solemnly siding with these brave, heroic players, who cannot fathom why a good man trying to give his kids lolipops or some BS was shot in the back. Every major print and news media platform, sans one (1) tv station that is widely ridiculed by the rest in its own right, every single social media and internet service, owned by the most powerful entities in human history, who happily squash milquetoast opposition from this meaningful public square discussion, every single academic in every single university, along with every major corporation donating sums of money larger than most countries' GDPs to this "cause," while every single local official at every level of government in these locations tacitly endorses and allows and embraces the ensuing violence, while police stand down as your grandpa is beaten with 2x4s while defending his livelihood as it goes up in flames.  

What ***** planet are you people on.

Imagine a man whose history includes pulling guns in confrontations, having a loaded weapon stashed in his car discovered upon finally being corralled after violently interacting with police in previous iterations of his legal troubles, who had an outstanding warrant for sexual assault, which the cops were made aware of upon arriving on call because he was violating a restraining order against a woman. Imagine this man aggressively resisting arrest, fighting through being tased, escalating past all reasonable warnings given by cops, escaping their embrace, and aggressively sauntering over to that side of the car, at gunpoint this entire time, ignoring all of these orders nonstop, chance after chance. He gets into the car, starts to turn, and was found to be going for his knife - but had it been the previously stashed loaded weapon, and had cops waited a millisecond longer, bullets would be spraying in every direction on a crowded street with kids in the car right next to them. Cops know this, and have to react accordingly, after they've exhausted all other options. Imagine the sheer lack of comprehension you must have to have in your brain to not understand what all of these actions will lead to in the face of the situation you are inexplicably escalating beyond the bounds any sane man would dare approach? Imagine not simply complying in this situation? Nobody who sits and makes these asinine judgments from their cozy lives would ever come within a ***** light year of acting this way in this situation.

 Either this man is genuinely missing his prefrontal cortex, or he understands that rather than going to prison where he will be treated how people who sexually assault get treated in prison, he has a chance at being given millions upon millions of dollars along with forever-hero status by supposedly nonexistent real world and cultural power structures. Just like George Floyd's abandoned family. Saint George, the man who had enough fentanyl in his system to kill a horse without the cocktail of meth, weed, and alcohol he was also on, who overdosed while in the restraint correctly taught and sanctioned by the MPD, though the links on their website to the studies that justify its use were scrubbed by the power arms, along with the footage and knowledge of his aggressive resistance being deleted from texts by the power arm in the AG position. These are your heroes. They didn't do nothin. Why do these pig cops who work peacefully within these communities for decades then just suddenly decide to snap and shoot brown people one day, even though it will literally ruin their lives and the lives of their families forever because of these cultural and political forces??? That is some dedicated raycissssssm!!!! Truly.

I want a cop taking those shots every single time. This was accurate risk assessment in split second temporal spans that most "community watch group" advocates would spend simply shitting their pants and crying, while their surroundings crumble into ruins and their ancestors turn away in disgust.

Meanwhile, we get to deal with the result of this garbage setting race relations back decades, here in the real world. Such that every time some absolutely revolting demon of a person decides to violently resist arrest and put everyone around them in danger, we get our towns burned down. So brave though, Lebron, tweeting about how whitey needs to teach their kids how to not hunt blacks on the street for fun! If only this guy knew how to move past page 2 of the books he is intensely reading in his social media photos, or how to read a ***** bar graph. Good lord almighty. 9 unarmed blacks shot by cops last year, all justified except one, and the cop is in prison for murder in that case. On the order of dozens of millions of police/civilian interactions each year, this corresponds to one second out of your next few years of life. Systemic. 

assert: racism
National-level multivariate regression with like 5 controls out of infinite real world variables, ie, beyond useless: excellent, a 4% outcome discrepancy (that subsequent studies can make vanish by choosing one more control, but we don't talk about that)
therefore science shows: systemic oppression and systemic raycizm
stack of anecdotes: wildly distorted, flagrantly false, deliberately misleading, ready to go (With a dash of Ben ***** Crump witness ***** fraud) 
profit (and i mean serious, serious profit for all parties involved. life changing)

Wew! Read the room sweetie. You did a racism, you did a colonialism. Check yourself, check your privilege. 

I can't wait for the rotting corpses of Minneapolis, Seattle, Kenosha etc. to be shown as examples of "white flight" ten years down the line by smarmy retards pretending that their overproduced useless degrees mean something. When businesses won't reopen because insurance companies watched all local officials let them burn last time. You guys are the biggest, most pathetic and traitorous frauds Earth has ever seen. Proper controls on any statistical analysis make all of your precious gaps, without which your worldview could not exist, vanish, in a way that would make Richard Dawkins proud, and then you're left with nothing but the obscene and despicable primal behaviors of a tiny fraction of people you will stop the earth to defend for reasons no sane person would ever understand. Your studies are junk, your concepts are junk, and your overwhelming narcissism and superiority complexes when discussing these topics are beyond tiresome, and your self-flagellation to attain social status points is an embarrassment. 

Should I hit submit on this post? There's no going back. If I hit it I'm probably not coming back to this forum, or to the internet. Because off the internet is where you can find millions of sane people, who have also compiled years of pent up astonishment, disbelief, and rage that such a historically illiterate and incompetent country, people, movement can exist at this level of power and influence. I sat down tonight to take my mind off of things and relax, and instead was greeted with midwit takes I grew past as a teenager, from self-absorbed athletes pretending they're novel and interesting ideas, and not endlessly tiresome and statistically illiterate tropes. I have seen the ledge that takes people overboard with less to lose than I have, and I am done. I guess I will hit submit.


 

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Just wanted to say goodbye everyone it was fun here while sports was fun, but the time has come to say goodbye and focus my money, energy and priorities on more important things. Sports was supposed to be an escape for all of us, and now they have clearly shown this is not the case. Before you jump the gun i am not a right wing extremist by any stretch of the imagination, Im a middle of the road thinker who believes in caring, love, peace and balance. Sports in general has clearly shown that they are not in the same lane. Therefore, I will find other things to take up my time.

I wish you all well and hope the Sabres give you one day what you all deserve a team to be proud of.

Congrats on being a real man. This post has more "courage" against the grain of nonsensical shrieking and struggle sessions than any BLM post, take, stance will ever have.

[Weave]

Well, that escalated quickly.

[Eleven]

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

Well, that escalated quickly.

I can't even comprehend it.  It's a ton of words in block text.  Do some of the words have a noun-verb sequence?

[LTS]

8 hours ago, Weave said:

The right word isn’t at my fingertips, but government accepted killings is close enough I guess.

I do appreciate the clarification.  I might tend to have a discussion further, but given current tension in this thread and well, generally throughout society, I think it's best to let it go for the time being. Perhaps over a bourbon at some point in the future, without the Internet getting all the in the way.

38 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Lmfao.

[shortened]

I sat down tonight to take my mind off of things and relax, and instead was greeted with midwit takes I grew past as a teenager, from self-absorbed athletes pretending they're novel and interesting ideas, and not endlessly tiresome and statistically illiterate tropes. I have seen the ledge that takes people overboard with less to lose than I have, and I am done. I guess I will hit submit.

 

Wow. So, thanks for that. It's probably good that I don't define myself by how you see me. Glad you got that off your chest though. it's unfortunate that with all that intelligence you claimed to have you lacked the wisdom you required.

Frankly I had thought you better than  your post, certainly not better than anyone else however. You might have had some talking points in that diatribe; but your ending really ruined it for me. But tell me, are you more upset with those who cannot process complex thinking or at yourself for not being able to tolerate the midwits?  It's a shame their experiences in life, viewed from a decidedly less complex world than the one you've created might also provide insight because the points they see aren't always between numbers.

Feel free to DM, or if you don't come back... best of luck.  I hope you find the wisdom you require.

Edited August 28, 2020 by LTS
grammar correction.

[SwampD]

Look how fired up some white folk got that they couldn’t watch hockey for one night.

I can’t even imagine how ugly it would get if they got pulled over for no reason and got shot in the back while unarmed.